............................................................................... ON THE RECORD JAMES MOLYNEAUX INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 16.10.94 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Northern Ireland is enjoying its first weekend of peace for twenty-five years but what's the next step? I'll be talking to the leader of the biggest Unionist Party in Northern Ireland. That's after the news read by Chris Lowe. NEWS HUMPHRYS: Hello again, the killing has stopped across the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland, and everyone prays that it has stopped for ever. But to turn a ceasefire into a permanent peace the politicians must now find a way of getting all the parties involved in talks which will produce a new political dispensation. I'll be talking to James Molyneaux, the leader of the Ulster Unionists, and asking him if he can plot a course through what looks like an impenetrable political maze. ***** But first, Northern Ireland. The Ulster Unionists have been holding their conference this weekend. Laura Trevelyan has been in Ulster where they're enjoying the peace but wondering what's the next step. ******** JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Molyneaux, has Gerry Adams surrendered? JAMES MOLYNEAUX MP: No, I think that a number of factors were brought to bear upon Mr Adams. I think that we have to face the fact that one of those factors may have been probably - was in fact a very telling force and that was the growth of the Loyalist paramiliary organisations because I did say that when the Prime Minister invited the four party leaders to meet him shortly after he came into Downing Street I said there was a danger that what was then happening three years ago was the effort to achieve a balance of terror. It's a horrible thought that, and it was a horrible thought at that time, but in fact that's precisely what did happen. I think the other in fairness to the - Her Majesty's Government and to some extent the two governments, that they played their part by offering what is a very major concession, a return to the democratic process by Mr Adams or any other former terrorist organisation, and that is in a way the reward, that is the concession to Mr Adams' similar concession to the so-called Loyalist paramilitaries as well. HUMPHRYS: But it's in no way a big enough reward, not if you look at what he is promising his followers. Therefore either he has been deceived or he's deceiving himself. MOLYNEAUX: Well, I think the latter may be probably the truth. He did deceive himself. In his heart of hearts he cannot really have expected to achieve all that he was demanding over recent weeks, and I think that there is some danger for him personally in upping the bidding in that way, knowing perfectly well that it cannot be achieved. I come back to it, that the Downing Street declaration with all its tortuous language sketched out a very clear path open to any terrorist organisation that once it would end violence for good and give evidence that it had done so, then it would be guided towards the democratic process. HUMPHRYS: You say that Mr Adams is in some danger, danger for himself was your phrase. What do you mean by that - that he's in danger of being replaced as leader of his party? MOLYNEAUX: He's in danger of being replaced, and the other thought which one hardly dares to put into words, that given the history of Irish Republic militancy over a century and more, those leaders who have taken a course, and taken a high risk course sometimes have their career terminated in a very brutal fashion. That's not something I'm advocating. HUMPHRYS: And neither obviously is it something the British government would desire, because if Mr Adams is replaced it will be with a much more militant man, so therefore it's in the British government's interest to preserve his leadership. MOLYNEAUX: Well, that will be done of course because her Majesty's government has every intention of adhering to the plan set out in the joint declaration, which was widely accepted throughout the world and that sets out that in the aftermath of the ceasefire, once it's reasonably clear that it's a ceasefire for good and not a phoney ceasefire, then they will open exploratory talks and that's a very very important development, and that's one which is going to come within possibly this particular year, and that will mean that Her Majesty's government will be represented by maybe intermediate rank civil servants with a mix of intelligence officers to verify, to obtain from the IRA assurances and evidence that their command structure has been disbanded and that their arms dumps have been identified both in the Irish Republic and in Northern Ireland. And incidentally it should be easier for them from the point of view of safe phasing to identify and surrender arms to the Irish government. HUMPHRYS: But you know that Mr Adams isn't going to get anything out of those exploratory talks. You're not going to let him, you're not going to give an inch. MOLYNEAUX: No, but with great respect, we're talking about two different sets of talks. Yes, but once they've been through the exploratory talks, the way will then be open for them to enter the democratic process. It's a very small step for them to take, it doesn't require any sacrifice for them to take that because they are already in the democratic process, unlike the Loyalist paramilitaries. Sinn Fein have an enormous number of councillors sitting with my councillors in chambers throughout all the twenty-six district councils, so it would then follow that if we had a new assembly in Northern Ireland Sinn Fein would be elected, as would the SDLP and I hope that this time the SDLP would take their places in that assembly. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but they want a great deal more than that assembly. I mean that isn't even the beginning of their demands - not even the beginning. MOLYNEAUX: Yes, but I mean, Saddam Hussein wants a lot more than the Unites Nations is prepared to give him and he'll just have to come to terms with reality. Mr. Adams and his followers have got to do the same. HUMPHRYS: So the crunch is going to come? MOLYNEAUX: Well, that will be for them to decide, it will be for them to decide that given that the Loyalist paramilitaries have responded, have declared in a far more convincing form, that they have ended terrorism. The way surely is then open, the reassurance is provided, that no one of any religion or any political view is going to be at risk once this takes root, and I agree with those who said, and sounded warnings yesterday at our Party Conference, we're not quite there yet, it's up to Her Majesty's Government to make that crucial decision because they've got the intelligence at their disposal which I do not have. HUMPHRYS: But you are ultimately, are you not, if talks are going to be kept on the rails, in any meaningful fashion at all, you are going to have to make some sort of concessions? MOLYNEAUX: Well the first item on the agenda of Mr. Adams is 'Brits Out'. That means British troops out, it ultimately means Brits out in the sense that all who believe in the Union will have to get out, that's the reality of it, because they couldn't live in the kind of United Ireland which would be...dominated maybe...will be dominated by the kind of people led by Mr. Adams, because they've made it quite clear that they want to see a Socialist Ireland in Marxist terms, where democracy won't necessarily prevail because in a united Ireland they're going to be a very very small fragment, remembering that they've only got two per cent of the electorate behind them in the South of Ireland. HUMPHRYS: But you see when on hears you talking in these terms, it adds to the almost disbelief that many people have about this whole process. Somebody must have given up something to get these very welcome ceasefires that we're seeing now. It's very hard to see who has actually given up anything and because of that the thing is bound eventually to come off the rails. MOLYNEAUX: Well I don't necesaarily agree with that, because one of the pressures was coming on the IRA to some extent, as you've just heard from the paramilitaries on the Loyalist side as well, and that was the people in the Catholic areas particularly, were getting rather more than fed up with the punishment beatings, with the intimidation, with the curfews imposed on sections of my constituency, by the IRA, where young Catholic boys and men over the age of ten, were not permitted on the streets after eight o'clock at night, because the way had to left way for the boys as the call them, mainly the IRA activists. Now, that's been going on for years, and those people when they come to my advice centre, the very first thing they say is "Right Jim, we want you to something about this housing problem we've got, secondly we want you to get those boys off our backs, because they're makigng life hell for all of us in our own communities". HUMPHRYS: But what happens when the realisation dawns, and you would say when, and not if, to use your own words "the Union is safe, it's is impossible for us to be betrayed", expectations having been raised on behalf of the Nationalists, what then happens, you've said earlier in this interview that you believe Gerry Adams may be replaced? MOLYNEAUX: I think that is a possibility, but I think that given the effect that the Loyalists have in a more convincing form, announced the ending of their violence, the pressure is going to be on even the very hardline hawks in the IRA movement. The international pressure is going to be upon them to remain inactive and to remain in the state of cessation, what they call 'military operations' and other things will lead on from that. HUMPHRYS: Well, but the other things that might lead on from that is that Gerry Adams is replaced, by a more militant individual, there is a new IRA born, they pick up the guns again, they pick up the Semtex again, that could happen, couldn't it? MOLYNEAUX: Yes it's quite possible, and that's one good reason why they cannot nor can the Loyalist paramilitaries, be allowed to retain the capacity to turn on the violence, if they don't get their own way and if they're dissatisfied with the way things are going, because it's really a question you see, of not just concessions by Loyalists, not concessions by Unionists or pro Union in the greater number of people as I call them, it's a concession to be made by democracy. Now you cannot stand democracy on its head, you cannot say that because a very limited, a very tiny proportion of the electorate in Northern Ireland, and its very much tinier electorate in the South of Ireland, make certain demands, that you can stand democracy on its head and you must subvert the will of what I call 'the greater number of people in Northern Ireland'. Roughly eighty five per cent who simply want to remain as they are, within the democratic system of government within the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: What you're saying quite clearly to Gerry Adams, they've got to give up their arms, and you Gerry Adams, have to surrender your aspirations. That's not going to be helpful in the long run is it? MOLYNEAUX: But he has created those aspirations, he has said repeatedly of course in recent weeks, that he's a true Democrat, he said he's a man of peace, so I'm saying to him, if he's a true Democrat, OK, give up the weapons, give up the Semtex, give up the armalites, stand for elections for an assembly, take your place in that assembly, make your voice
heard, help me to redress the grievances of the constituents who live in my constituency, but who would own an allegiance to your party, Mr. Adams, and then Northern Ireland will be a happier place. That ought to be the aim of any true democrat. HUMPHRYS: When will you shake his hand? MOLYNEAUX: I don't quite see that happening for a long time, because I don't see that we're going to be in the same company, I would be very reluctant to do that, unless and until we had a complete settlement and Sinn Fein took its place as a normal democratic party within a fair democratic structure. HUMPHRYS: James Molyneaux, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...