............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 23.10.94 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon, on Friday, John Major lifted the exclusion orders against the Sinn Fein leaders Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness which had banned them from entering Britain. This morning Martin McGuinness flew to London for his first interview here since that ban was lifted. That's in ON THE RECORD after the News read by CHRIS LOWE. NEWS HUMPHRYS: But first Northern Ireland, Mr Major's acceptance of the IRA ceasefire means that Sinn Fein will become involved in talks on the future of Northern Ireland; but then what? Sooner or later, those talks will have to find a way of reconciling positions which appear to be irreconcilable. Sinn Fein, the IRA, wants Britain out of Northern Ireland. The Unionists want to stay part of Britain. Britain has told them 'we will stay as long as you want us to'. Over the next weeks and months there will be much talk about arms and amnesties and agendas, but there is one overriding question; how have we managed to get to this stage unless somebody somewhere has either been deceived or is deceiving himself. Earlier this morning Martin McGuinness flew into London, something he hasn't been allowed to do for twenty two years, and I spoke to him. I asked him whether it was still his position that anything short of a British government decision that they are leaving Northern Ireland is unacceptable. MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Well, what I would like to see happening is the British Government and the forthcoming talks which are now due to take place giving a commitment, a clear commitment that they intend to end British jurisdiction in my country, yes. HUMPHRYS: And that has unchanged, that is unchanged, it's not negotiable as far as you're concerned? MCGUINNESS: Well I think it makes sense. I think that more and more people are coming to accept that there can be no internal settlement within the six counties. The reality is the place where I live is a political slum, that stayed as a slum, it has failed and there can be no papering over the cracks. The British Government have to accept the right of the Irish people to self-determination and they have to accept that the Catholic and Protestant communities in Ireland can live at peace if we are allowed by the British Government. HUMPHRYS: But the Unionist ceasefire is firmly, deeply, totally rooted in the belief that the Union is secure - so they are being deceived? MCGUINNESS: Well it's quite clear that nothing is secure. It's quite clear that everything is about to go into the melting pot and it's quite clear that many people within the British establishment accept which I think is very significant and that the British Prime Minister, John Major, on Friday said that he accepted there could be no internal settlement. This has been repeated by Michael Ancrim, the Minister for Political Development at the NIO (phon) and they have made it quite clear by implication in my opinion that the state in which I live has failed, that the partition of Ireland has been a disaster, that British rule has not worked and it's quite clear after seventy years that there is an expectation now, not just in Ireland but in Britain as well, and I think within the international community that there must be change and that change must be fundamental, political and constitutional. HUMPHRYS: Well you say that but the British establishment as you describe it has made it abundantly clear to the Unionists that, to repeat that phrase the Union is secure, it is absolutely safe, there's no argument about that. MCGUINNESS: Well I think there's considerable debate about that and I think that Albert Reynolds, George Hume and ourselves have got an awful lot to say about this, and the inevitable political negotiations which will take place. It's quite clear that everything is going to go into the melting pot and I think it's also quite clear that many people accept that there has to be fundamental change. HUMPHRYS: You seem to be suggestng in that other answer that the British Government's private position may perhaps be different from its publicly stated position. MCGUINNESS: Well, I should remind people that in March of last year I did have a meeting with a representative of the British Government who said to us that the eventual outcome of all that Britain was trying to do would be the island would be as one, and I think that there is no doubt whatsoever that there are people within the British establishment who are clearly having a rethink about their position. In Ireland as it stands at the moment, many people, particularly in the twenty six counties believe the word is actually happening is that the British Government are slowly but surely disengaging from Ireland. I think we have to test this in the forthcoming talks and we are quite interested in speaking to the British Government about all of these matters. HUMPHRYS: How senior was the figure who gave you that assurance? MCGUINNESS: Well, as far as I'm concerned he was there and he was there on the authority of the British Prime Minister, John Major, and that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Patrick Mayhew. HUMPHRYS: A civil servant or a politician? MCGUINNESS: There's no doubt about that. I'm not going to identify who the person is but I am quite satisfied that he was there with the full authority of the British Prime Minister, there's no doubt about that whatsoever. HUMPHRYS: Isn't it rather dangerous for somebody like yourself to rely on that kind of private assurance? MCGUINNESS: Well, I mean I'm very sceptical about it. I'm not saying that I accept what this person's said to me, what I am saying is that this was stated to us by the British Government at a time when the British Government were looking for a situation where the IRA would suspend its campaign for a period of two weeks. They said they were interested in bringing about a situation where delicate discussions would take place between representatives of Sinn Fein and the British Government and a location, either in Scotland or in Denmark, or some place like that, and it was quite clear that Britain at that time had decided that the time was opportune for in depth discussions about the political situation in Ireland. HUMPHRYS: Therefore the Unionists are being deceived. MCGUINNESS: I'm not saying that the Unionists are being deceived. HUMPHRYS: But that's the only conclusion you can draw from that. If you were given certain assurances, if you were told certain things, the Unionists were told absolutely opposite things, then somebody somewhere along the line is either being deceived or is deceiving himself. MCGUINNESS: Well, the only people who can make that clear is the British Government and that's what the future negotiations will be about. We will be seeking in our discussions with the representatives that the British Government is trying to meet us (sic), how Britain views the situation in Ireland and how it views it's future relationship with our island, and I think it's quite clear that it is coming against a background. Whether it's a major expectation of great change in Ireland. HUMPHRYS: But if you listen to what Mr Major said in that speech about Northern Ireland. If you listen to other statements he's made about Northern Ireland, the speech he made on Friday in Belfast about Northern Ireland you will know that there is publicly at any rate not a cigarette paper between him and James Molyneaux. MCGUINNESS: Well I'm not that sure that that is the case and I'm not sure that there is many people within the Unionist community here actually believe that. It's quite clear that the Reverend Ian Paisley and the Democratic Unionists don't believe that and I think that John Major made a significant comment in his speech in Belfast where he actually used Republican terminology when at one stage he talked about movng towards a just and lasting peace. And there is no doubt about it whatsoever, that we are in a totally new situation. That the IRA statement of the 31st August has totally transformed the situation in Ireland. The decision by the Loyalist death squads to stop killing Catholics,.... backed up by the momentum attitude, by the decision by the British Prime Minister to re-open all the cross border roads, to accept the talks must take place with Sinn Fein until the .....exclusion orders on myself and Gerry Adams which should be a..... by the lifting of exclusion orders on all the other people who have been affected. It's quite clear that there is a momentum in the peace process. HUMPHRYS: But none of the things you have gained, or you think you have gained from the British Government takes you any further forward than you were twenty five years ago before your battle began. And when you look at the details of what they are talking about, Mr Molyneaux talks about a Northern Ireland assembly, restoring normal politics, democratic politics, as he put it, restoring in Northern Ireland. When Mr Major talks he uses just that sort of language, he talks about a Northern Ireland assembly too. MCGUINNESS: Well I don't agree with you. I don't think that John Major is talking about the same assembly as James Molyneaux has addressed, and it is quite clear that James Molyneaux, if he thinks that the SDLP and the Dublin Government and ourselves will support the assembly elections at the beginning of next year,I think James Molyneaux is living in cloud cuckoo land, and I don't believe for one minute that the British establishment and the present British Government believes that that will be a workable solution because it is quite clear and they have made it quite clear themselves and I think that that is a significant aspect of what the British have been saying. They have said and accepted that there can be no internal settlement. HUMPHRYS: What you are saying is Mr Major's deceiving the Unionists because on this programme last week, at this time, Mr Molyneaux said that you had surrendered and you'd been conned effectively. The IRA had surrendered and you had been conned by the British Government. MCGUINNESS: Well, I don't think there's anybody in the world who believes that the IRA have been defeated by the British Government. I don't think there'a anybody who believes that the IRA have surrendered and it's quite clear that we have a situation now which has been created by the IRA, by the IRA decision which has then forced other people to take different positions in relation to adding to the momentum of the peace process. It's quite clear that we are now moving fairly quickly into a rapidly developing situation and there is much hope. There is a very real opportunity now for all the parties of this conflict to get together and work out a new future for all the people of Ireland. We've been working at this for several years, and we are now seeing the dividends of that paying off but threre are many difficulties ahead. There are many more mountains to climb. An awful lot of more difficulties but I think that given good will on all sides and given people accepting that we cannot go back, we cannot go back to pre-1968, we cannot go back to Stormount, then I think if we take that as our starting point then we can work out all the relationships which need to be sorted out to bring us onto entirely new situations, to end conflict, tragedy and suffering in our country. HUMPHRYS: But Gerry Adams has made it clear that if he can't deliver, if you the present leadership of Sinn Fein, of the IRA perhaps, can't deliver then, that leadership is going to be thrown out and a new perhaps much tougher leadership is going to take over. Gerry Adams is out for a start; is Martin McGuinness still going to be there if that happened? MCGUINNESS: Well, I think you're misinterpreting what Gerry Adams is saying. Gerry Adams is saying quite clearly because it has been a proven fact of Irish history right down the decades that if the central issues at the heart of this conflict are not addressed and resolved, then there will continue to be conflict in our country. That has been a fact of life in Ireland. From our point of view what we are trying to do is move away from all of that. It's trying to get the British Government to face up to its responsibilities and clearly they... HUMPHRYS: But if it doesn't? MCGUINNESS: And clearly they have got the chief responsibility because it's no good the British Government saying that it's a matter for the Irish people on their own to work all of this out. I mean the British Government in recent times have used interesting terminology. They talk about being facilitators, they talk about bringing people together... HUMPHRYS: They don't talk about being persuaders... MCGUINNESS: Exactly, but it's a short step in my opinion from the language which they are using to use the language of being a persuader. HUMPHRYS: Are you sure you're not just kidding yourself here? MCGUINNESS: I'm not kidding myself at all. HUMPHRYS: And if, and if the British Government doesn't deliver what you now believe it ought to deliver, then you are saying quite clearly you do have to go back, you do have to retrace your steps, this process can't continue? MCGUINNESS: No what I'm saying quite clearly is that we have the best opportunity of seventy years since the foundation of the six county state to finally resolve a problem that has brought tragedy, suffering and misery to us all. HUMPHRYS: And if this opportunity doesn't deliver the goods within a certain period of time, you're not going to be able to continue to hold the ring are you? MCGUINNESS: I think you're getting onto issuing ultimatums.... HUMPHRYS: No no I'm not, I'm not.... MCGUINNESS: You can't put that sort of language into my mouth. Quite clearly Irish Republicans are very seriously committed to the success of this peace process and I believe they intend to exhaust to its final conclusion every opportunity to bring about peace on our island. HUMPHRYS: And as far as you know the IRA is prepared to sit and wait for you as long as is necessary. MCGUINNESS: I am not a spokesperson for the IRA... HUMPHRYS: I didn't say you were although many people say that you speak for them, but the fact is as far as you are concerned they will wait, indefinitely. MCGUINNESS: As far as I am concerned Irish Republicans will exhaust this peace process. Irish Republicans are totally committed to the success of the peace process. Irish Republicans have set the agenda, everybody else is jumping to the Irish Republican tune, I am not saying that in a triumphant way but it clearly has been in evidence for some time that all of the people who are part and party to this debate and discussion have accepted, which is a very important first step in this whole process, that inclusive dialogue is required by those people who are at the heart of the conflict, must be involved in the search for a solution and for lasting peace in Ireland and I think that we can do that, I think we can bring that about. HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, thank you very much. MCGUINNESS: Thank you. ...oooOOOooo...