NB. THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT; BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES, OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS ACCURACY ................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 30.4.95 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, do you accept that those are real concerns, the sort of things we have been hearing about there that they go to the very heart of the worries that many of your supporters have, and perhaps most importantly, they are not going to go away, they are permanent. DAVID HUNT MP: Well the first point I'd make is that much of the insecurity which came through in that film is felt by people in countries right across the world because it's been a very rough and tough recession. What we have to demonstrate to people is that we have the policies, the government has the policies which are going to sustain growth, non inflationary growth over time because that's the ony way to create long lasting
jobs. HUMPHRYS: The question was do you agree that it's permanent? HUNT: No I don't... HUMPHRYS: This insecurity. HUNT: No I don't because things are changing, it's not just that more people are finding jobs although a thousand people are
leaving the dole every day. Of course that disguises a much wider turnover, in fact that's happening because nine thousand people are joining the dole every day, but ten thousand are leaving, leaving a thousand more jobs every day. Now that's progressively happened the last two years and therefore the job prospects of many people now are far better than they were and probably you stand a better chance of getting a job than any other country in the European Union. HUMPHRYS: But let's not look at the last couple of years and the sorts of figures you've just been giving me, let's look over the last fifteen or sixteen years. From the time that your government came to power five million fewer men are in full-time employment, now that may or may not be your fault, it almost doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion whether that is your fault, but that's what's leading in part to the sort of insecurity that we saw shown in that film and that's got to be worrying for you. HUNT: Right one of the difficulties of course that we face as a government is people do have short memories, very difficult for them to remember the seventies, when, of course, we had something called the British disease in the United Kingdom which was strikes and industrial action all the time and the trade unions were very dominant, what has happened since 1979 is that we have now seen a creation of long lasting jobs. Over the last fifteen or so years the average household in Britain, even after taking account of price rises, is eighty pounds a week better off and they are now getting more security in their jobs, but it's going to take time to feed through. For instance, we've had two million more jobs in the last ten years and over the last year we've had two hundred thousand more full-time jobs because we are being competitive and what being competitive means is of course producing British products cheaper and better than other countries can produce them so we keep winning exports and our exports are now up fourteen per cent on what they were a year ago so we are being more competitive. HUMPHRYS: Well we may be more competitive that may or may not be the case, but the fact is that it isn't feeding through to people's consciousness, they do feel less secure and that's what I'm talking about, I am talking about feelings of security which matters so much to you, you heard it in that film from all sorts of different kinds of people for all sorts of different kinds of reasons. HUNT: Yes, and of course many of my constituents are in the same position and I don't blame Mr. Smart for looking around for someone to blame, I don't blame him at all, what we in government
have to do though is to have the sound economic foundations on which we can build for the future and also a government that looks ahead to the next millennium, to have the right policies for the next millennium. You see, politics must be about policies not soundbites and it's very important that we get across our policies, particularly our policies of free enterprise, free trade, having the opportunity to own, the right to choose, more secure law and order, pride for people who are British in the world, fighting for a strong Britain at the heart of a strong Europe, all these are policies which we have got to get across much clearer than ever before. HUMPHRYS: They may listen to that or they may not, but they'll also listen when somebody like Mr. Portillo says and again, I doubt whether you'd argue with this, that we must expect fewer life time jobs, fewer people can expect to be in the same job for the whole of their lives and that trend is going to continue, indeed, going to get worse. HUNT: Yes I agree with that and I attended a job summit in Detroit in the early part of last year when I held the job that now Michael holds and there was very much the theme right across the major economies of the world that a job for life is something very much of the past for a lot more people. HUMPHRYS: So how does that fit in then with your claims that people are going to feel more secure when you tell them all the
things that you are doing, they are not because they are going to know that that is the case and they are going to associate it with yourselves. HUNT: Well one of our objectives is to have the best qualified workforce anywhere in Europe, that's one of our key objectives and we are doing that of course by creating and it was the Conservatives who created the Training and Enterprise Councils who featured during the film, to make sure people have the opportunity to train and re-train throughout their lifetimes, build up their qualifications and why, it is because we have to compete, we have to be competitive because that's the only way to maintain our standard of living and improve our quality of life. HUMPHRYS: But it's not going to improve this feeling of security, it's not going to get rid of the sense of insecurity that people have and for which you talked about, blame earlier for which in part at any rate, they blame you. HUNT: Well I, I detect that much of the insecurity is of course due to a very rough and tough recession, particularly effecting the people we've just seen in the film. Now those people only have to look in other countries to see identical situations but in this country we have the policies which are winning through, that is why we are seeing more people getting full-time jobs at the moment, that is why we are seeing more security spreading all the time, but we cannot ever remove the memory of the insecurity that occurred during the recession because it was a very difficult period but it's vitally important now that we seize our opportunities, the opportunities that the economic policies of this government are now giving us for sustained non inflationary growth. HUMPHRYS: But you've accepted in this interview that it's not about what has gone on in the past, it's not about the recession, dealing with the recession, the recession theoretically has been over for donkeys years now, it's the future and they blame you because they see you as being the party of competition, the party of the free market and it's that that they blame for what has happened to them for their insecurity now and that's something you are not going to get..be able to get away from. HUNT: Well I've already explained that the recession that's hit countries where all forms of government are in power... HUMPHRYS: Yeah but I'm not talking about the recession now, I am talking about the message that you have consistently as a government right from the beginning of Mrs. Thatcher's first day has been delivering to this country and that is the market is God, you cannot buck the market, competition is a good thing, let's deregulate everything, let's have that competition and they are now seeing the results of that competition, of letting it all hang out and that's what they are blaming. HUNT: No I don't agree with that John, but let me just explan why we have a market. We have a market, the purpose of which is to create the prosperity that then enables us to have the social policies that we want to see, giving the greatest help to those in the greatest need. That's the whole purpose of the market. It's what I call the social market where you have responsibilities as well as rights, where you have the justification for the market, that it does make people better off and provides the resources to look after the people who can't look after themselves. HUMPHRYS: But they're not seeing the results you see, that's the point. What they're seeing is job insecurity, we saw it in that film, you talk to people everyday who say to you, Mr Hunt I'm worried about my job. HUNT: That is of course primarily because we have seen some very difficult situations...circumstances arising up out of the recession and also continuing in some of the larger companies who are shedding people, because there is great technological change taking place. Now what we as a government have done is not to sit back and let it happen, we've in fact over the last year or so been having all the best brains in science and in industry... HUMPHRYS: A bit late in the last year or so isn't it? HUNT: No, no, no. As a result of the technology foresight programme, with this huge change now, now in technology, we've have the best brains in science and industry sitting down trying to look ahead ten, fifteen, twenty years and over the last three weeks we've brought out a range of reports on which the government is now taking action so we can take advantage of the changes in technology but they do of course, in certain larger companies, create this feeling of insecurity but the key to our economy lies with the small and medium size businesses. We have many more of those in this country, they're are the seed-corn of the future, that is where the free enterprise spirit is at its strongest, that is where we must give enormous support to the creation of an enterprise economy. HUMPHRYS: But what they may well say, you see, is we don't accept that that's going to work for us because what you've been doing so far hasn't been working for us. We've seen some people under this great open competitive market, getting immensely rich but we've seen many many more people losing their jobs, not being able to get back into the full-time, regular jobs that they were accustomed to, that they feel they have a right to be accustomed to. That's what they see resulting from what you have been preaching and the problem is for you, you've not just been in the driving seat while all this has been going on, you've been embracing it so enthusiastically. HUNT: Well it is important to embrace change, the only way to take advantage of change is to seize the opportunities that change gives you within the economy, to keep ahead of your competitors. We published last year a competitiveness white paper, we're about to publish a report on what has been achieved since then and where we go in the future and there are clear policies to make us more competitive. That's the key and as I said before, it's all well and good to have sound bites, nice sounding phrases. What you have to do though is to have the policies that will deliver greater security and I believe those are the Conservative policies that you're now seeing bearing fruit. HUMPHRYS: Let me give you a sound bite if you like then: a country at ease with itself. Sounds terrific, sounds marvellous, it's what Mr Major promised but a country at ease with itself is not what we're seeing at the moment. We're seeing a country desperately worried because its insecurity..its security is being chipped away. HUNT: Yes but with a thousand more people every day coming off the dole, with many more people finding full-time jobs, with many more people seeing their standard of living slowly improving, after a very difficult time, at last repossessions are falling, at last mortgage arrears are falling, at last opportunities are increasing and over time, you will see, as night follows day, that people will realise that that's due to very firm economic policies and they'll look at the opposition parties and realise they don't really have economic policies. The economic policies are very clear, evident for everyone to see. HUMPHRYS: But you think that the people we saw in
that film felt that they were in a country that was at ease with itself? Do you really believe that? HUNT: Well they clearly expressed their worries about insecurity. HUMPHRYS: Yes they weren't at ease with themselves were they? HUNT: I recognise the extent to which they feel insecure. What I'm talking about though John, is that in this country. Now almost the only country in Europe where you've seen unemployment fall on the scale it has here, only in this country do we have the policies that are going to deliver that security. You see, don't forget we have refused to sign up to something called the 'Social Chapter', which puts more burdens on businesses, makes us less competitive. Now we're the only party that has refused to sign up to that social chapter, that wants to keep our veto to stop those burdens being imposed on our businesses because it will destroy jobs. If you look at the opposition with the National Minimum Wage, more powers for trade unionists all the time, which we heard about in the small print of yesterday's publicity stunt, then you've really realised that it's only with the Conservative policies that we are going to get that security. HUMPHRYS: Let's forget for the moment then about people who are worried about their jobs, let's look at people who've had their jobs, who've retired, older people. Now they are worried because they find themselves not as secure in their old age as they had expected to be. That must surely worry you. HUNT: Yes that, of course, that is a group of people vitally important for them that we defeat inflation and that is, of course, one of the underlying cornerstones of the government's economic policy. HUMPHRYS: But it's not inflation that's worrying them, it's not that. Indeed some people welcome inflation because they see their saving doing better as a result of it. They're not worried about that... HUNT: .....because their savings lose value.. HUMPHRYS; Alright, but maybe, but they're not worried about inflation, that's not what those ladies were talking about in that film. They're worried about what's going to happen to them in their old age, they're worried about having to sell their homes to pay for nursing homes where they can go and have a degree of dignity and comfort in their old age. They are desperately about it. HUNT: Yes I was in a home just earlier this week, in my own constituency of Merseyside, where two older ladies were showing me their council tax bill. Now sadly we've got a hung council dominated by Labour and the Liberal Democrats. Right across the country those council bills are coming in at over a hundred pounds more ..... HUMPHRYS: But this isn't a party political report you're making. I'm not..I'm trying to get this away from party politics. HUNT: No I actually spoke to people who were saying to me, we don't know how we're going to manage to pay this very sustantial increase in our council tax bill. Those are the sorts of worries and you can see the opposition in action, in local government so you know that there it does cost you more whereas Conservative councils cost you less... HUMPHRYS: But you're not addressing the question, you're simply not addressing the question that I put to you. That's a party political point, and people say that they're fed up with politicians attacking each other all the time. Let's talk about the issues, and the issue that worries millions of people out there, whether it's the elderly people themselves or their children is what's going to happen to me in my old age, how am I going to manage, how am I going to be able to find a home if I have to and how am I going to be able to pay for it. Am I going to have to sell my house to pay for it. That's the real issue. HUNT: John, can I remind you about your question. In the course of the question, which I was answering, you said they're not worried about inflation, in fact it does a little bit of good, it helps their savings. What I'm demonstrating is I have actually been with people over the last week for whom that inflation in their council tax bills undermines their feeling of security. HUMPHRYS: Those ladies in that film weren't talking about inflation. They were worried about what's going to happen to them in their old age. People are worried because of what's happening, what they see to be happening to the welfare state, to social spending and all of that. I know you're going to tell me you spend more than ever before, the figures are going up and up and up, but the messge they're getting from this government and have got for a very long time now, is that they're going to have to become much more self-sufficient, and that frightens them, because the only way they see of doing that is selling their home and going into some sort of nursing home, and how are they going to pay for it. This is what's worrying them. HUNT: John, it's very good of you to answer my - your question with my answer. You said, "Ah, you're going to tell me you're spending more than ever before, and of course we are, and also of course we're spending more than ever before on the National Health Service, another one-thousand three-hundred million in this financial year over last. HUMPHRYS: But do you deny that those people are worried about the sort of things I've just raised? HUNT: Now the key is, how are we going to be able to continue to afford for these constant additional sums that are necessary, for the National Health Service, the other key national institutions for pensions and everything else. Now what we have to get across to people particularly over the next two years is that the only way to pay for those additional services is to have the free enterprise system that is creating more prosperity, that then enables those social policies to be maintained. HUMPHRYS: No, people must be, and let me give you this as a thought - people must be increasingly willing to undertake that which they can do for themselves and not rely on the state, that's the message that's coming from your government, and has been for a very long time now. HUNT: Well, why is it therefore we're spending more than ever before in key areas of social support? HUMPHRYS: But you wouldn't deny that message would you, you wouldn't deny that that is the message you're delivering to those people? HUNT: The message we deliver to people is that they must have the opportunity to own and the right to choose. They have a right to better public services, they have a right to more security in law and order. HUMPHRYS: That isn't ... HUNT: They have the right to be free from inflation, because inflation destroys jobs and destroys savings. These are the battles we've been winning in the United Kingdom for the last fifteen, sixteen years, and as we go towards the millennium we must continue to win. HUMPHRYS: But you didn't embrace that quote that I just gave you, that thought that I just gave you, people should be increasingly willing to do it for themselves. HUNT: Yes, I embrace the whole concept of responsibilities as well as rights, the opportunity to own, the right to choose. HUMPHRYS: So their choice is going to be they've got their house - they've bought that, they done that, but now they're going to have to sell it, so that they can pay for themselves in their old age. Some people might call it asset stripping, people who've spent their lives working for an honest coin. HUNT: If people are ill, if people are ill in their old age they will be entitled to free treatment at the right point of contact in the National Health Service. HUMPHRYS: I'm not talking about that, not talking about being ill, because if they're chronically ill they're going to be thrown out of hospital, and that's the problem. HUNT: What we always have sought to increase is the level of home ownership so people can build up their savings, they can build up their home ownership throughout their lives. Of course once they get much older we have got to get across to them that it's only because of our policies that they have security in the future. People are living longer now thanks to the breakthroughs we've made in medicine in the National Health Service. HUMPHRYS: Oh, you're surely not claiming that a
Labour government is responsible for people living longer because of medical breakthroughs. I mean that goes across the board, but politics... HUNT: No, I'm not talking about party politics. I'm saying that we have made (interruption)... we as a country have made the great breakthroughs we've made, is to have substantial increases in home ownership, to give people more opportunity to make decisions for themselves, the opportunity to own and the right to choose. HUMPHRYS: If you're chronically ill in hospital and the hospital throws you out because that's what's hapening increasingly because they can't keep sick people in hospitals any longer, what happens is that you've then got to sell your house to finance your stay in some sort of nursing home. Let me remind of that quote - "asset stripping of people who spend their lives trying to earn, working for an honest coin". Now that isn't me, that's the Sunday Express. HUNT: If doctors believe that someone is ill and requires hospital attention they will continue to receive that attention. We haven't changed the rules in the way that you suggest. Of course it's always been necessary if people have capital for them to utilise that capital in their old age. That's why they accumulate capital, and what we have to recognise is that as people live longer they will want greater security in the future, but they still have to accept that in any society that is really making economic common sense they cannot possibly expect the state to provide that residential care for free where they have assets themselves. HUMPHRYS: So the wealth is not going to cascade down through the generations as John Major promised is it. That's not what's going to happen, it's going to be used up HUNT; .. we have now, whereas we had three million shareholders we now have over ten million shareholders. People have a much greater share, they have now, many more of them own their own homes. The number of mortgages has increased over the last year. At last we're seeing some stability. HUMPHRYS: ....negative equity has increased over the last year. HUNT: No, no, no, not over the last year. HUMPHRYS: The amount of negative equity has shot up and everybody listening to this programme knows that. There are people listening to this programme who feel insecure on that account as well. HUNT: I'm talking about the last year. Since we came out of recession we've been slowly building up a more secure society. John, what we have to do as a government is to get across that it is our policies that are securing the future, that's the simple message, you're quite right, that's the simple message we have to get through to people. HUMPHYRS: But your problem is, and I think you've accepted this in the broader sense, and let's take it away from party politics in the last minute of this interview, is that the kind of job security that people used to have they cannot any longer expect, the kind of security in their old age that they felt they had they cannot any longer expect, for reasons that you've jut explained, and your problem is that they're going to blame you for that when it comes to voting for the next government. HUNT: I don't accept all the points you've made, but just let me say this, that it is a fact that with technological change right across the world there is going to be less of an emphasis on the job for life, but providing we can increase the qualifications, have the best qualified workforce in Europe, provided we can continue to increase our standard of living and our quality of life, providing we do that on the basis of good Conservative commonsense then we will reap the rewards. HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...