................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.3.95 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon, the Conservatives have just launched their local election campaign - but it's been swamped by waves of rows and Ministerial gaffes. We'll be talking to a senior backbencher who says the Chancellor and the Chairman must go and to the Cabinet Minister who's meant to stop this sort of thing happening. That's after the News read by Jon Sopel. NEWS HUMPHRYS: There was a time when the Tories could rely on their old stagers to provide a bit of ballast when the political waters got choppy. Not any longer it seems. Last week Lord McAlpine, much loved of Lady Thatcher, proved about as helpful as a shifting cargo in high seas. Mr. Major, he said, had stuffed the Party. Today we have one of the most senior backbenchers - Sir George Gardiner - laying into Kenneth Clarke. I'll be talking to David Hunt, the Cabinet Minister who's meant to keep the ship steady, in a moment. But first this from Mark Weston Turner. ******************** HUMPHRYS: Well, David Hunt, can you say the same, can you tell Sir George we have absolute total confidence in the Chairman of the Party? DAVID HUNT MP: Yes, we do, I don't agree with George but I think the key message that comes this weekend is we have to show the people of the United Kingdom who's in charge, and follow the Prime Minister's example in demonstrating that with a thousand people leaving the dole every working day with steady prices in the shops, that Britain is top of the premier league, but I'm afraid we've got to get back on top of the premier league for presentation. HUMPHRYS: And, the Chairman of the Party, is the man who runs the premier league in that sense, isn't he? And if you're not getting on top of it, then it's got to be his fault, hasn't it? HUNT: No, no, not at all. I think that the Prime Minister has set a marvellous example in very courageous leadership. Negotiating the opt out on the single currency, on the social chapter, policy on Northern Ireland, and what Jeremy Hanley and I have got to do is to get through to all ministers they've got to follow the Prime Minister's example, and get out, and show who's in charge. HUMPHRYS: So you've got to get through to all ministers, you say, now that's the Prime Minister's job, clearly, it's the Chairman of the Party's job, clearly, and it's your job, clearly. But, equally clearly, you're not getting through. Look at the coverage you've had this week, so therefore, I repeat the question, whose fault is it? HUNT: Well, I think it's the fault of everyone who isn't putting across a clear, coherent message. HUMPHRYS: And who are they? HUNT: The facts are very clear. The facts are that we do have a thousand people leaving the dole every working day, that the figures are looking extremely good, that we have steady prices in the shops, and that we are winning in export markets right across the world, we're the fifth largest exporter and importer in the world. Now, what we've got to do is to get across to people what has occurred during the fifteen, sixteen years we've been in office, what we now promise over the next two years, must be the opportunity to get across our achievements, and then the political support will follow. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's try and help you to do that then, because this is constructive programme that we've got here. You've already said there are three people who ought to be doing that job. Now, you've also said the job isn't being done, so let's repeat the question and then perhaps once we've discovered who's at fault, where the blame rests, you can correct it. Now who do you think's at fault? HUNT: The job is being done. HUMPHRYS: But you just said it wasn't, with respect. HUNT: No, no, no, let me put it my way. The job is being done. But we shouldn't have to go abroad to realise what a good job this government is doing. It's up to every individual minister, and indeed all members of the Conservative Party, to get onto the doorstep now in the local election campaign, and start the trail to winning these local elections, and winning the next general election. So far as the next general election is concerned, we have more than two years. Let's spend every minute of those two years leading the nation, continuing to get the good economic statistics we have, but getting our message across much more effectively. HUMPHRYS: Right, well you don't want to sack Jeremy Hanley, you've made that clear. I take it you've made that quite clear? HUNT: Absolutely. HUMPHRYS: Okay, you don't want to sack Jeremy Hanley. What about sacking the Chancellor then, because of the kinds of things that he has not been doing, perhaps, rather than has been doing, because he's not been getting across this message, has he? HUNT: Well, let me put it this way. I said earlier the job is being done, it is being done. And one of the reasons... HUMPHRYS: Well, before that you said it wasn't being done - at least that's how I interpreted it. HUNT: The real job, in the real world is being done very effectively... HUMPHRYS: Ah but the message isn't getting across. HUNT: ...very effectively and one of the reasons for that is we have a very effective Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is delivering something we haven't seen in this country for a very long time, a sustained period of non-inflationary growth. And what we all need to do is to get out and talk about that. I mean no-one knows any more what the Labour and the Liberal Democratic parties really stand for, but everyone knows what we stand for, and those principles of free enterprise, free trade, free markets, freedom of the individual, the right to choose, the opportunity of ownership, let's get out and shout about them. HUMPHRYS: Well, if they know what you stand for, and yet you're forty points behind in the polls and facing disaster at the next local elections, something somewhere is going badly wrong, isn't it? HUNT: Well, I've already indicated that if we are top of the premier league for growth in Europe, that's not much use unless we're top of the premier league for presentation and what...we have of course been very low in the polls before. We were down lower than we are now, we were down to eighteen per cent. But what we've always done is to look to the medium to longer term. Now that's exactly what we have to do, we have to look to the millennium, to the twenty first century, detail the policies that are going to win the next general election. HUMPHRYS: But you can't wait for the millennium to come before your position improves, can you? And if you're not now at the top of the premier league for presentation, where do you reckon you are? Down at the bottom of the fourth... HUNT: Well unfortunately we are about half way down the league table but with everyone following the Prime Minister's example of leadership and courage and vision then we'll get back up to the top of the premier league by the time of the next election. HUMPHRYS: All right well again let's be clear about this then, who isn't following the Prime Minister's lead, clearly if they are not all doing it there is somebody who isn't, who isn't? HUNT: Well you only have to ask on the doorstep John, and I have been around canvassing to recognise that the message isn't getting through and I offer myself as an example of someone who needs to get a more effective message across, we all do, we all need to follow the Prime Minister's lead and I very much hope that everyone will unite behind that lead, in particular over the coming weeks and months. HUMPHRYS: So you offer youself, which is noble of you, what about offering the Party Chairman as well because, I mean, we have seen this morning a number of people calling for his resignation. HUNT: I am not one of those, I think we have got a remarkably effective Party Chairman, who is leading a very good local
Government campaign, but we need to give our leaders stronger support, that's
what I am talking about. HUMPHRYS: If he is leading a particularly strong campaign, then why have we been talking about the wrong sorts of things from your point of view this week, we've been talking about those allegations he made about Labour local government being corrupt, tending to corruption. Now I've not heard a single senior cabinet minister support him in that this week, you might like to be the first on this programme? HUNT: I very much support Jeremy Hanley. HUMPHRYS: Well do you agree with him that Labour local Government tends to be corrupt I mean let's be clear about that. HUNT: There are examples and you only have to look for instance, at the south London newspapers this week to see a double page feature on corruption and malpractice in Lambeth, if you look at Birmingham and Derbyshire, you look at..don't forget we are fighting local government elections so therefore it must be about local government and Labour local government is Labour in practice and you don't have to tell someone who comes from the city of Liverpool what the history has held, we need to make sure we have good strong, effective Conservative commonsense local government. HUMPHRYS: All right, well let's be clear then that you are joining Mr. Hanley as the first senior member of the cabinet in this allegation that Labour local government tends to be corrupt now he didn't say there's the odd little example here and there, he gave us a list of eight admittedly but some of those were disputed later, including by some of your own supporters, he said, as a generality, Labour local government tends to be corrupt, are you joining him in that overall allegation? HUNT: Yes I made clear that I agree with Jeremy Hanley and I agree with the Prime Minister when he said that often you see Labour malpractice in action in local government... HUMPHRYS: Oh that's a different matter isn't it.. HUNT: And whether it's Political corruption,
whether it's political malpractice, whether it's actual corruption, actual malpractice, what we have to do in these local government elections is focus on the record and when you look at the record of Labour local government it doesn't hold up to the magnifying glass, is doesn't hold up to scrutiny, that's what these local elections are all about. HUMPHRYS: You agreed with him that Labour local government may not be as..that's what the Prime Minister said, not as efficient and all the rest of it, what the Prime Minister did not say was that Labour local government tended to be corrupt, he specifically did not say that, neither did your own deputy chairman, John Maples say that. HUNT: The word malpractice was used, the word corruption has been used.. HUMPHRYS: Not by the Prime Minister it wasn't. HUNT: What we're getting across and I repeat it again, is that Labour local councils is Labour in action, at local government level and we're foscussing on their record, putting that record under scrutiny and demonstrating if people vote Conservative in these local elections what will then happen, they will get better local services and better value for money. HUMPHRYS: But you would accept, wouldn't you, that there's a huge difference between the words malpractice, inefficiency, whatever you like and the word corruption because as your own deputy chairman said, corruption suggests people having their hands in the till and he himself did not suggest that Labour councillors had their hands in the till and you are not saying are you? HUNT: Well you have to ask John, when you look at the record of certain Labour councils why it is that the police are involved, why it is that there are these articles being written, demonstrating malpractice and corruption in local government... HUMPHRYS: Plenty of articles are being written.. HUNT: John, this must be part of any proper debate about what local government should be all about and the message that we are putting across in these local government elections is if people vote Conservative, they will get better local government as a result. HUMPHRYS: All the signs are that you are going to lose a lot of seats in April, thirteen hundred seats according to the BBC's own estimates, if that happens, if it's anything like that at all, what then happens to the Chairman of the Party let alone the Prime Minister, but let's just deal with the Chairman of the Party first. HUNT: I remember just before the last General Election being asked a very similar question about other individuals when the Conservatives were six to eight points behind in the polls, I don't accept that we are not going to have a winning campaign.... HUMPHRYS: So you're going to win - you're going to gain seats. HUNT: ...the polls John, what I worry about is the poll that matters on local election day and at the next General Election. HUMPHRYS: And do you think that on local government election day you are going to gain seats do you? HUNT: Well I am quite sure that I will be interviewed immediately after the local elections and I very much hope that I will be able to speak about a winning campaign and it will be a winning campaign for the Conservatives if we unite behind the Party Chairman and the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: It can be a winning campaign if you don't win seats, if you don't gain seats. HUNT: I am talking about winning seats, a winning campaign and we shall win if we unite behind the Party Chairman and the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: Right but your problem is and Alan Clark said it again this morning, your party is out of control. HUNT: It's not at all, look at the reality of the situation, as I said before you don't...you shouldn't have to go abroad to realise what excellent results everyone is achieving in the United Kingdom, now that must have something to do with the Government, it must have something to do with the fact that we were top of the premier league for growth in the eighties and now we are again - it must have something to do with the fact that we've had good government since 1979, what I want everyone to do is to get out and shout about it. HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, thank you very much for shouting here this morning. ...oooOooo...