............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 11.12.94 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. It was a terrible week for the Tories and there's more to come. A landslide defeat predicted at the Dudley West by-election and the rebels as defiant as ever. What IS the leadership to do? I'll be talking to the Tory Party Chairman after the news read by Jennie Bond. NEWS HUMPHRYS: But first - the troubled Tories. At the time it must have seemed pretty straightforward: if you have a bunch of rebels you threaten them with expulsion from the party and that'll bring 'em into line. If they persist, you chuck 'em out and then wait for them to come crawling back - as they surely will. Well, it's no longer looking that simple. On the contrary, the nine who no longer answer to the Tory Whip are looking more and more like a party within a party and they show no sign at all of remorse, let alone a desperate desire to be re-admitted. So, the Government's in a minority and the Opposition are saying the Commons committees which must scrutinise new Bills should no longer be dominated by them. And that raises the prospect of a Government effectively paralysed when it tries to get new legislation through. With me is the Chairman of the Tory Party
Jeremy Hanley. Mr. Hanley good morning. JEREMY HANLEY MP: Good morning. HUMPHRYS: You've got to do something about these people haven't you, either with threats or with promises, you've got to get them back into line? HANLEY: Well it would be nice for them to retake the Whip, but that's a matter for them. They have to show a clear and consistent support for the government's programme, and of course within the voting lobbies in the House of Commons, and then the Chief Whip will decide when they can come back in, if they should of course want to. Now at the moment you concentrate of course on those nine, what you don't mention are the three hundred and twenty one Conservative Members of Parliament who did support the government. And in the confidence motion, the fact that we got a majority of twenty seven shows that whilst you regard it as a minority, there is still very much a majority in the House of Commons, for the government to continue with its programme of legislation. Indeed, Sir Richard Body said over night, as you may have seen, that he will consistently vote for the Conservative Party, except of course on this issue. Now it is for them, therefore, to decide when they want to come back, and we would welcome them of course. HUMPHRYS: I also heard Sir Teddy Taylor say this morning" we have our agenda quite clearly, and we're not cyphers for the Tory Party". HANLEY: Well you say 'we', of which you speak, you give the impression that they are a party within a party. HUMPHRYS: Well they give that impression don't they? HANLEY: Well if you look in the papers today you'll see that they are not a party within a party, they are individuals, they are Conservatives, they were elected as Conservatives, they will vote according to their particular wishes, which I hope will be in accordance with our own policies, because thet are after all, representing Conservative voters and the Conservative Government has a full programme, and I would expect them, and hope indeed that they will support our policies consistently in the future. HUMPHRYS: But you're not sitting here telling me this morning that it doesn't much matter whether they come back under the whip or not, are you? HANLEY: Well what I'm saying is that's a matter for them, naturally we would like them to, as the Prime Minister said yesterday the door is open, we will discuss, we need to discuss matters before the IGC in 1996, we want to take on board all of the views in the party when the Prime Minister goes to negotiate on our behalf, and indeed it is only right that we should, because every party of course has a coalition of views. We want to hear people, but people who have deliberately kept themselves outside the party, who have lost the Whip because that was exactly what they knew would happen if they took that particular course of action, they're not now part of the debate. HUMPHRYS: But you know how to bring them back into the debate, as you put it, bring them back under the Whip and that's to say you can have the referendum that you want, and I'm slightly puzzled here by what Mr. Major has been saying, because yesterday he seemed to offer that bribe, if bribe it is, and I dare say you'll say it isn't, but today he's on the attack he's calling them self-indulgent, they've got to back us persistently and consistently, what's his position here? HANLEY: Well, I think you're confusing two very different issues, as far as a referendunm's concerned the Prime Minister's made it absolutely clear that that is a matter for debate, that is a matter that has yet to be decided. After all if you take the two issues that he's said could be possibly put to a referendum and only possibly, one of them is the result of the inter-governmental conference, and that depends what the results of that conference happens to be. There may be some very important issues, there may be some comparatively minor issues, whether that result is put to a referendum also determines...or is determined by the question that is put, and as far as a single currency is concerned, the Prime Minister's made it very clear that that is a matter that is in the long grass and therefore doesn't have to considered at this very moment, but is a matter which he says might be considered later on, that's just the debate which is there at the moment, and as you mentioned, as far as Michael Portillo this morning, that is part of the debate, that's a good debate, a healthy debate. HUMPHRYS: But very different language between Mr. Portillo and Mr. Major. I mean Mr. Portillo was saying, 'let's be kind to these folks, peace, reasonableness, let's be generous and patient and tolerant'. But Mr. Major's talking about self-indulgent people. There's a very different tone there isn't there? HANLEY: No, there's not a different tone, in fact. If you actually...you're misinterpreting I think what Michael Portillo was saying. What Michael Portillo stands for of course is the fact that he recognises that when people on a matter of confidence in government, when they vote against he recognises enitrely, and there was no dispute at all in Cabinet on the matter, that they should lose the Party Whip if they decided not to support the government on that issue. Now there's no disagreement there. There's also no disagreement that we would willingly take these people back if they show a consistent support for the government, there's no difference there at all. HUMPHRYS: But there is a lot of difference isn't there over the circumstances in which you do take them back, I mean, you are assuming that they positively want to come back. They're not giving any indication that they want to come back at all, they're perfectly happy to carry on as they are doing. HANLEY: Well that's for them but they must reapply for the Whip, in other words it's up to them to reapply in the first instance and secondly, then if they want to reapply for the Whip and if the Chief Whip believes that they've shown that consistent support then they could be admitted but the time scale is a time scale that can be completely unknown. Who is to say exactly what the time scale is? HUMPHRYS: Yes but there is a clear difference isn't there, within the Party over how they should be treated. We learn this morning that Sir Marcus Fox berated the Chief Whip, they had a stand up row, he and the Chief Whip over whether the Whip should have been withdrawn in the first place and whether they shouldn't now be invited to come back. 'Let's bring them back into the fold' is what he was saying. HANLEY: But that as far as I'm aware is just a bit of journalistic talk, people like to hype up differences between people and every discussion... HUMPHRYS: You're not suggesting to me that there aren't differences over this issue are you? HANLEY: Well I'm certainly not aware of a
difference between Sir Marcus Fox and the Chief Whip, after all Sir Marcus was
the strongest in calling for loyalty before the particular vote in question,
so I think it's most unlikely that the press reports are totally accurate on that issue. No, Sir Marcus knows full well that unity is vital. I spend a lot of my time travelling around the country. Last night I was speaking in the Midlands and there the view of the association was absolutely clear that what they want is unity within the parliamentary Party and indeed without unity, the Party is diminished. It is not as strong unless you have unity and I believe that the Prime Minister, not only deserves unity but indeed, the Party needs that unity and I think that we will get that unity with the programme of legislation that we have ahead. HUMPHRYS: But you talk about the constituencies, your problem really is that you can't threaten these characters, you can't bring them back in under any kind of threat because their constituencies support them. And that's what changed in the Tory picture over the last several months, maybe years. HANLEY: Well if you have a person who is a
Member of Parliament and if they espouse a particular view and if they espouse that view against the views of the Party, remembering of course that there are many people who would have helped them to become Members of Parliament, who would have stand at the streets and raised subscriptions and collected money and done all the local events which are necessary for the support of a local party. There are many people there who might disagree fundamentally with an individual Member of Parliament's view, particularly if they are being disloyal to the Prime Minister or to the parliamentary party or indeed give a picture of disunity. And therefore you're judging, let us say, a small group of people around a Member of Parliament, people who have chosen to support that Member of Parliament as being typical of the views of all Conservatives in that area. Now most of these people are finding that there are a very great strand of opinion, there are many strands of opinion within each of their areas, so you can't actually judge a constituency exactly..
necessarily by all of the views that are held. HUMPHRYS: But I know you are missing something. I haven't heard their constituencies sayin: "they were wronged, support the Prime Minister, be loyal to the Conservative Party" - I must have missed that. HANLEY: Well I think you have missed it in
one or two instances... HUMPHRYS: One case in Ruislip, the officer said yes, you've got to be loyal but then there is already a little Friends of the MP Association building up and in every other constituency, not a peep out of the Chairman. HANLEY: But that isn't really of the main issue, the main issue.... HUMPHRYS: ...think of the men and women who are meant to support the Prime Minister, these are the ultra-loyalists. The Tory Party Chairmen in the constituencies.... HANLEY: But you will know from reading for instance even the Sunday Times this week, the Sunday Telegraph last week, that the polls show overwhelming support...I mean the vast majority of support for the Prime Minister and the government and for unity in the Party and look, I'm not trying to get these people de-selected in the slightest, absolutley not. I want them to come back into the Party fold, they were elected as Conservatives and they should remain Conservatives. The fact that they have taken a positive action not to support the government on a matter of confidence is an extremely serious matter and the Whip being withdrawn is an automatic consequence of that but we want them back. We don't want precipitive action taken necessarily but that is up to the associations, that's not up to Conservative Central Office or the Parliamentary Party. If local people want to reselect then that is up to them. HUMPHRYS: You say you don't want precipitive action taken necessarily against the constituencies, that implies that maybe you do want it, maybe it has to happen? HANLEY: No not at all, you can't say that. No, what I have said... HUMPHRYS: So you leave them alone? HANLEY: No, what I have said is that it's upto their own local associations to decide what to do. Now that is for them, we've decided of course, within Conservative Central Office to do absolutely nothing with regard to these individuals, the support for the constituencies is there, their associations are still being supported of course they are, and naturally, if these individuals come back and assume the Party Whip again then they will be supported at the next general election. HUMPHRYS: And if they don't come back? HANLEY: Well if they don't come back they are not a member of the parliamentary party, if they have had the Whip removed at a time of a general election, then they cannot be selected as an official Conservative Party candidate, and another official candidate would have to be chosen. HUMPHRYS: And if their constituencies say, well, no we don't want to choose another candidate, we like the guy we've got. HANLEY: Well then they are not a member of the National Union of the Conservative Associations, that is, I am afraid, one of the rules of the National Union and that is something of which they are well aware. But that's not a threat to the Member of Parliament at all, it is a fact that if a person happens to have the Conservative Party Whip when they are a Member of Parliament, then they will be endorsed as a Conservative Party candidate come the election. If they don't, then, of course, they are most unlikely to be selected, indeed, the rules say that they should not be. HUMPHRYS: So come the next election, if they hold out and they are giving every sign at the moment that they intend to hold out, if they hold out, their constituencies are told you may not re-appoint him as your candidate, reselect him or her as your candidate, therefore you have got to find someone else, they say we are sticking with who we've got, you have got a split in your party haven't you? HANLEY: Well we're talking about remember, eight or nine individuals as opposed to the three hundred and twenty one who have loyally supported the government in this motion. Now, what happens when we come to a general election is a different matter. All I am setting out is what the National Union rules are, the fact is that if a person, let us say an association of people want to put up for an election - an individual who doesn't have the Party Whip in parliament, then they are perfectly free to do so, but they can't stand as an official Conservative Party candidate and there will then be an official Conservative Party candidate. All the surveys show that at least ninety to ninety-five per cent of people vote for the party and not the individual, that goes for me too. Even in my constituency I'm very well aware that people support the party first and there may be some who'd vote for me as an individual, but those figures are very small. Party loyalty is very deep within the associations it's deep within the country as a whole, and that's why people want unity as all the surveys are showing. HUMPHRYS: Well that rather depends on how you define party loyalty doesn't it. The Sunday Times surveyed a hundred constituency chairmen this morning only seventy per cent of them thought they were..the rebels were wrong to vote against the Government over the budget measure, that leaves thirty per cent who thought they were right, where's the party loyalty that you talk about. HANLEY: But you said at the very beginning of this programme John, that there are splits on the subject of Europe. Now Europe was the reason for that split, and indeed, there is a split in our party over how we go forward over Europe, but the vast majority of our party support the Prime Minister, congratulate him on what he achieved in Essen, particularly I see that Helmut Kohl congratulated him and Jacques Delors has accepted that John Major's vision of the future of Europe is far more realistic than the future of Europe, which, indeed, was being espoused by some Europeans earlier and as far as the Labour Party is concerned, I'm sure that you will bring out later on in your programme that some forty Labour MPs .... HUMPHRYS: Yes I'll be talking about that later. HANLEY: Well you will but I hope you will be saying forty voted against on the second reading, over twenty voted against on the third reading, the split in the Labour Party is just as great and actually talking of splits, the Conservative Party in Parliament has had two defeats caused by its own backbenchers in this Parliament. In the last Labour Government the Labour Party were defeated twenty three times by their own backbenchers, and nineteen times by a combination of other parties, so these things aren't terribly surprising when you have a small Parliamentary majority. HUMPHRYS: Not terribly surprising for a Government to be defeated over a budget measure by its own backbenchers, that is an extraordinary thing to happen. HANLEY: It's extremely disappointing, but it is something that happens and it's exactly what happened with Mr. Denis Healey when he was Chancellor. HUMPHRYS: But the fact is that you can't leave the rebels alone now, can you, you've got to get them back.... HANLEY: It also happened with Geoffrey Howe when we had a much bigger majority, so these things happen. HUMPHRYS: But the problem for you is that your minority is getting smaller and smaller, you've got a by-election in Dudley West this week and you are going to be absolutely hammered, so there's another seat you've lost. HANLEY: Well we shall see. This is what happens when Governments have a small...we're certainly fighting to win and we've got the best candidate as the local press all seem to agree. HUMPHRYS: Are you forecasting a win here this morning? HANLEY: What we are talking about here is the matter that we've got a small majority, this happens to Governments with small majority, it's very difficult of course to win by-elections when you're mid term, when all of the difficult issues that you've had to tackle, when the Prime Minister has had to tackle one of the worst recessions we've ever had, and when now we have the strongest growing economy in Europe and the fruits of that recovery will come out over the next... HUMPHRYS: No Government has ever been this unpopular even mid term, no Government has been anywhere near this unpopular. HANLEY: Each time over the last..each time over the last few General Elections the mid term has been lower than the time before yes, it has been worse, now this is a continuing challenge... HUMPHRYS: This is spectacularly worse... HANLEY: But the economy has now recovered to an extent when we have the strongest growing economy, and we will have a very strong economy which will be felt in time by people, because of the low inflation people don't feel the recovery, there isn't that feel good factor
which I believe will come over the next two years. HUMPHRYS: But the significance of this split within your party this time is that the rebels believe they have support on their side, they believe that when they stand against the Prime Minister, against the Government as they are doing now, it doesn't do them any harm because they believe they are right, there are effectively now two parties, indeed, they even call themselves the confident Conservatives, confident in their policies rather than your policies and they believe they have support out there. HANLEY: Of course they have some support, individuals will write to them and they then get great strength by that, of course they do, I mean that happens to all Members of Parliament, they tend to be a bit selective on the letters that they receive and they tend to quote the ones that are supportive rather than the ones that in fact attack their position, but you yourself earlier on said the constituency chairmen are in support of loyalty, you've admitted that by... HUMPHRYS: I don't believe I actually said that.. HANLEY: Yes you did because you... HUMPRHYS: I quoted to you the fact that a third of them believed that the rebels were right in what they did. HANLEY: But the survey that you were referring to clearly said that people...that constituency chairman and indeed, people throughout the nation want unity in the Party, that is not in dispute, and not only that the vast majority, as I said earlier on, three hundred and twenty one, not these nine, three hundred and twenty one support us, and we had that majority on the conference issue. HUMPHRYS: But there's not even unity within the Cabinet, there's a deep split over whether or not there ought to be a referendum. We heard Mr. Portillo coming out against it this morning, John Major is saying he thinks it's probably a good idea, Michael Heseltine thinks it'a a bad idea, there's no unity even in the Cabinet. HANLEY: Well just a minute, you are making far too much out of what is after all a debate. This is exactly what the Prime Minister said, nothing has been decided upon as yet, it is not the right time .. HUMPHRYS: Michael Portillo has decided, he said so this morning. HANLEY: One doesn't even know whether there would be a referendum because you don't know what the question would be, you don't know what the circumstances are, when a referendum would come out... HUMPHRYS: It's the principle involved as you know and Michael Portillo is opposed to it in principle. HANLEY: No I think you'll find that as with every party there is a wide strand of opinion, the debate continues, the debate will continue. You talk about a divided Cabinet, I've been in that Cabinet for the last four or five months and I've seen the reality of that Cabinet, I've seen that most of the press stories of a divided Cabinet, of votes in the Cabinets, of people being defeated, of arguments, absolute rubbish, they are pure nonsensical. It is a most united Cabinet, and I can tell you that the Prime Minister enjoys the confidence of his Cabinet, and he deserves the confidence of all of those who are elected Conservative MPs. HUMPHRYS: It looks increasingly like a lame duck Government, doesn't it? HANLEY: No it's not, judge us by each of the votes, if you look at that confidence vote, with twenty seven majority, our majority's half of that, I mean, therefore, that was a tremendous result. Now, as far as I am concerned, you've got to judge us by each vote and I am certain that those who lost the Party Whip will be supporting the Government throughout the next year, there may be the occasional issue that people may disagree upon, that's what Parliament's about, that's what democracy is about, but the Conservatives who were elected last time will be Conservatives and I hope they will come back in and accept the Conservative Party Whip. HUMPHRYS: Jeremy Hanley thank you very much. ....oooOOOooo....