............................................................................... ON THE RECORD ROBIN COOK INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 11.12.94 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: So there you are Mr Cook, you've got to tread warily, you've got a problem, you're more pro European than the Tories, therefore they will be able to play the patriotic card against you. ROBIN COOK MP: Well let's be quite clear about this.
Labour believes that Britain's place is in Europe and indeed in a leading place in Europe, because it's in Britain's interests to be in Europe. That's where the majority of our trade goes, that's why inward investment comes to Britain, because we're part of Europe, it is fundamentally important to our future as an industrial nation, and that's why other industrial nations in Europe that are outside the European Union are queueing up to get in at the present time. But that doesn't mean to say that we are uncritical of Europe, that we don't want to change it, that we don't have major disagreements with some of those in the Commission. Indeed, the irony of your piece there suggesting that we're too pro Europe is that only a fortnight ago in the House of Commons, the big debate in Europe turned in our amendment, demanding major cuts in spending of the common agricultural policy and elimination of fraud which has marred the record of the Commission. Actually it was a Tory Government that voted that amendment down so it hardly makes the case that we are pro European. HUMPHRYS: Well I think the message of that film was not that we think you are too pro Europe but that many members of your party think that you are too pro Europe, and therein lies your problem. COOK: Can I say that I've had difficult briefs before, and I've had divisions before behind me which on the whole I've managed to conceal from you, but on this occasion I do have to say that I have a comparatively easy ride presenting the clear areas where Labour does have fundamental agreement, and which in the two months that I've been in the job, nobody's disagreed with. If I can just run over them. Let me go over Labour's agenda in Europe. First of all, Labour's agenda in Europe is to make sure that Britain opts into the Social Chapter, because the social dimension of Europe is so important. I agree entirely with one of those you interviewed saying, we can't just have a Europe of businessmen. We've got to have a Europe of the people, that means that we've got to have the same rights for our working people as in Europe. Everybody in the Labour Party's agreed with that, secondly on the common agricultural policy. I know of nobody in the Labour Party who is objecting to our demands for fundamental change in the common agricultural policy, real structural changes. HUMPHRYS: Nor indeed in any other party, but still, yes? COOK: I think you will very quickly find people in the Tory Party who represent the farming interests, who will have some anxieties on that score and who'll certainly will be dragging their feet, and if the Tory Party was serious about changing the common agricultural policy, it is rather odd that they've allowed spending on it to more than double in the time that they've been in government. HUMPHRYS: So you'd veto the budget, just before we leave that one, very quickly then, you'd veto the budget would you, if you weren't happy with the way the CAP was going, you'd be prepared to veto the budget of a Labour Government. COOK: Well can I just say that your reference...you're raising the issue of veto here, it does of course bring us to the heart of the problem of the Conservative strategy, and that is to be always the odd one out, always the one sitting at the end of the table carping ..... HUMPHRYS: Yes, but..... COOK: Let me just come to the point. Never the one that's actually in there arguing for change. Now the problem over agriculture is precisely because the British Government keeps raising the importance of veto, the French Government therefore has a right of veto of agriculture. I actually do think there's a strong case for saying that we should not have the veto in agricultural matters, because until we do so we're not going to get round that objection of the French Government. This is a case where Britain ought to be taking the lead, not hanging back, not being got round, taking the lead in the Europe which is increasingly recognising that we cannot afford the common agricultural policy, we certainly cannot afford it if we're going enlarge the.... HUMPHRYS: So two areas so far, the Social Chapter, weakening the veto on the CAP, in order to get reform, what about single European currency. COOK: On the issue of the single European currency we passed a statement at our Party Conference, it was actually passed unaminously as a matter of fact, none of the people we interviewed voted against it, and nobody in the Conference Hall voted against that statement, and that statement does recognise the very considerable advantage that could be there for a single currency, greater stability, great predictability for bussinessmen, the removal of the Exchange costs for tourists and others travelling across Europe, also it would end the speculator playing with the British pound. So there are advantages, BUT if we are going to go into them, then it has to be on the right conditions, and here actually the point that you were quoting there from Peter Hain are points that are actually in in party's policy. First of all the Central Bank must be accountable politically, it must be accountable to make sure that it pursues policies of sustainable growth and full employment, and secondly also, the convergence criteria must be convergence of the real economy of output, of productivity, of growth, and tragically of course, after fifteen years of the Conservative Government, we are now further away from convergence of the real economy. HUMPHRYS: Right, so what you would do in order to get back in there, to argue Britain's case, is you would end Mr Major's opt out. COOK: Well I do believe it is very important that Britain should play a part in debating the future of the monetary union, actually I have some sympathy with the point that's made by David Martin on that, that we ought to be in there arguing over the nature of monetary union because what's important is that we get it right. We ought to be in there trying to design the vehicle, not standing by saying 'well, we'll decide later on whether we're going to join for the ride' because by then the vehicle will have been designed. HUMPHRYS: So you would end the opt out? COOK: I'm not saying that a Labour Government would necessarily join the single currency..(interruption).. HUMPHRYS: But if you don't end the opt out, how are you going to get in there to argue your case because your whole criticism, one of your main criticisms with the Tory Party's policy, the Government's policy has been that it stands alone all the time, it stands outside, you want to get back in there, you can't get back in there unless by definition, unless you opt in. COOK: Well actually, frankly, I disagree with you on that point. I'm bound to say that there are going to be very
substantial discussions within the European members as to whether they can
proceed with a single currency. There are going to be real debates over the design of the single currency, over the Central Bank, over the conditions, I want to be in there pitching to make sure we get it right. I don't think we can stand on the sidelines on this one. HUMPHRYS: So therefore you have to end the opt out in order to be admitted to those councils because you cannot, you can't argue those cases from that..those points from outside. COOK: Well I think come the time in 1999 which is the one written in the Treaty, I should be myself surprised if every other member state of the European Union is going to be ready...(both talking together).... HUMPHRYS: You're talking about wanting to change the conditions that apply..(interruption)..so that you given the right circumstances, if I understand you correctly, could sign up to a single European currency. COOK: We would want to join a single currency if the conditions are right, if we achieve the correct nature of convergence,
that correct nature of convergence being the real economy, not just monetary target, and if we did have a designer single currency which made clear that we're a Central Bank, which is open, which is accountable to democratic (interruption).. HUMPHRYS: So there are plenty of 'ifs' there and those are the 'ifs' that have to be cleared up. COOK: Hang on, hang on, those are not just 'ifs', those are very important conditions. They're vital to British economy and of the British people and I may say, other countries as they approach it will be looking at the conditions that are in the interest of their people and their economy would have to be equally tough but you've got to be in there taking part in the argument. HUMPHRYS: Absolutely, you have to be in there taking part in the argument and the reason you say that we are not in there at the moment taking part in the argument is because Mr Major chooses not to be. He wants us to stand alone and therefore, he exercised the opt out which pleased many members of his own Party. Now you must hear this morning me saying, we would end that opt out on behalf of a Labour Government. COOK: What John Major did was get an opt out which of course need not apply if the terms of convergence were not themselves met. He got....they were in the Treaty, there are quite clear, specific terms of conversion, now we want to go back in the context, perhaps in 1996, and look at those conditions again. It's a debate which would be perfectly legitimate to reopen in 1996 when there will be another inter-governmental conference. It is perfectly true that the EMU debate is one that is not actually prescribed in the Treaty for revision in 1996 but it would be astonishing if the European Union in 1996 was to have an inter-governmental conference that was not looking at these matters afresh. HUMPHRYS: So a Labour Government comes to power in the early part of '96, you go along as Foreign Secretary to represent Britain at the inter-governmental conference and you say 'I know our Prime Minister wanted to opt out, chose to opt out at Maastrict but I want to be readmitted now to these councils on behalf of a Labour Government, I want to be readmitted to those councils, therefore I'm ending the opt out and given that we can win the argument over change in the convergence criteria in this way and that way, we will then sign up to a single European currency. We'll get rid of the Queen's head off the fiver. COOK: If there is a single currency then it would be an advantage to the British economy, the British industry and the British people to join, then yes, a Labour Government would join it but only on the grounds that the conditions were right for it and that we had achieved the convergence of real economic performance, which, of course, you are more likely to do with a Labour Government. HUMPHRYS: Which is Mr. Major's position effectively, and he thinks it's so unlikely that those convergence criteria will come right within a sensible period of time that it isn't actually likely to happen, so you see, you want it both ways here don't you, you want to win this argument without actually taking it any further forward. COOK: John, we want a single currency that would work and would work in the interests of Britain, you are not going to get that if you don't take part in discussion, you are not going to get that if you stand on the sidelines saying our option is just simply staying out of Europe, not taking part in these negotiations, not getting around the table, not taking part in the shaping of the single currency, because I'll tell you this, the danger of that is that at the end of the day, a Conservative Government even would find itself in a position which it played no part in devising a single currency but might then find itself impelled one day to join up to an organisation which itself hadn't helped to shape, now that is what we've got to avoid. First of all, and the other point I want to make is that all the way down the line in your examining, you are pre-supposing that we are going to fail to get these conditions.....(talking together)... that's the only point at which the question of staying out applies, why don't we go into these negotiations and see if we can succeed for once.... HUMPHRYS: Because we can't just go into those negotiations, since you ask the question, you can't go into those negotiations with the opt out prevailing, that's the whole point of the opt out. COOK: In the real world in 1996 is going to be taken up throughout Europe with an inter-governmental conference is going to happen anyway and that inter-governmental conference provides the opportunity, provides the vehicle for re-opening these questions. HUMPHRYS: Well exactly, so if what you're saying is in the real world the IGC is going to come along and a Labour Government would say forget about the opt out, we're in there, we're arguing the case, with the eventual intention of Britain joining a single European currency, then I fully understand.... COOK: If the conditions are right. HUMPHRYS: Of course if the conditions are right, then I fully understand what you are saying. COOK: Right, well then I think we've reached agreement on that. HUMPHRYS: Yes, we've reached agreement that you would end the opt out in order to get Britain into a single currency on our terms. COOK: What we're saying is if a Labour Government is elected in 1996, given that you have an inter-governmental conference that would be taking place in 1996 in any event, we would want to go into those negotiations to seek ways in which we could change the design of the single currency, to try and get accountability at the central bank and to make sure that when the issue of convergence came up it was convergence for a real industrial performance. Now if we got those changes, then a single currency could be in Britain's interest. HUMPHRYS: But once you have a single currency, even given the sorts of conditions you describe there, you lose control of over your own economic destiny, you for instance are a Keynesian, most of your colleagues are Keynesians, you can't be a Keynesian if you've got a central bank and a single European currency, by definition. COOK: Well there are very serious problems raised by the issue of a single currency and of course they were absolutely right that one of the issues that will be raised by that is that of course, you lose control of the right to devalue your own currency.... HUMPHRYS: And there are all sorts of other things as well... COOK: That is the primary economic tool you lose. Now, that is of course a very serious tool to lose, unless you can achieve the same kind of economic performance as the countries of the continent. That is why it is so important that we do have an industrial strategy that starts to gear us up to match the output, match the productivity, match the export rates of the continental countries, a kind of industrial strategy we've not had for the last fifteen years...and during which time we've fallen further behind, now that's why it is so important that we start getting that right and that's what should be the test, the condition for whether or not we join up to a single currency. On the issue of the Keynesian reflation,
we of course have said that what we want to secure is co-ordinated measures of growth across Europe and here we come back to the issue of the central bank, it is very important that in the design of a single currency, the design of the new economic structures you are creating, that the prime objective is growth, is full employment, is jobs, is not just monetary targets and those are issues that would need to be very carefully examined, and put back on the table. HUMPHRYS: And as far as people like Peter Hain and Peter Shore in your party are concerned, and many others like them, they are convinced that if you sign up to a single European currency, a Central Bank and everything that goes with European Monetary Union, you effectively institutionalise unemployment in the Union? COOK: I think what Peter Hain was saying was that if you signed up on the present conditions, particularly the rather...... HUMPHRYS: I didn't hear any conditions attached to what they had to say? COOK: Oh, no, no, with respect I've discussed this on a number of occasions with Peter Hain. I know his views, and actually I thought his views were fairly reflected there. If you signed up on the present conditions, then yes, you would indeed have problems. That is why it is so important that we make sure that those conditions are changed and that is why Britain cannot stay out of discussions on them. HUMPHRYS: Let me just ask a terribly simple question. Is it more likely... COOK: I don't believe it's going to be simple - never for one minute. HUMPHRYS: Well let me try. Is it more likely that a Labour Government would take Britain into a single European currency than a Tory Government would? COOK: I believe it is more likely that a Labour Government could secure changes in Europe that are important to the British economy. I believe that because a Labour Government would be committed to making Europe a success, I think Europe as a whole, now does not make concessions to British interests because they know Britain stands on the sidelines, doesn't want to make a success of the project and indeed has a Prime Minister who daren't go to Europe with proposals to make Europe a success because they're divided on party. HUMPHRYS: So therefore the answer to that question is yes, it is more likely? COOK: It is more likely if we get the right conditions and if you got the right conditions, then of course we shall join, yes. HUMPHRYS: Right. So if we look at the sorts of things we've been talking about this morning. Social Chapter, reform of the CAP, if that means as it inevitably would mean, a weakening of the veto, entering into the single European currency. COOK: On the issue of agriculture. HUMPHRYS: On the issue of agriculture. Given the circumstances that you describe, you are a pretty pro European party. COOK: We want to make a success of Europe because we want to make a success of Britain's membership of Europe. I may say all these things that you have listed would be immensely in Britain's interests. if we could get those major changes in the common agricultural policy, it would save us considerable expenditure and it would make sure that we are freeing resources within Europe for spending on other issue such as the regional budgets out of which we'd do much better. So these are all changes that are not just Europe's interests, they're changes we want because they're in Britain's interests. HUMPHRYS: But they are, as you'd accept, massive changes, these are fundmantal changes, would you give the British electorate a chance to decide for themselves on them? COOK: On the issue of referendum, yes we've made it qyuite clear that we have an open mind on the question of a referendum, for instance perhaps on the single currency. And indeed Tony Blair has in the past week said that he can recognise a very strong case for letting the people decide. It's got to be a Europe of people, not just a Europe of politicians, and that's why it's got to be the people who decide. Now whether in the event it is a decision taken through a General Election or through a referendum, is something we'd have to consider in the particular context and given the time when these changes were taking place. But the people must decide, we're quite clear about that. HUMPHRYS: Right, so if we had a Tory Government that was returned to power the next time, or indeed if you get into power the next time......in your election, you're going to make it absolutely clear that you are either in favour, under these conditions of a single European currency or whatever it make be, if you get voted in on that basis, you'll say well OK we have a clear mandate, but otherwise you're going to be arguing for a referendum, strongly arguing for a referendum. COOK: I won't necessarily rule out that we'd have a referendum in the event of being elected, if this question of a single currency came up some time after the General Election. We're not simply saying that the General Election is a way in which you can avoid having a referendum, it's a question of whether it comes together at the right time or whether the issue's fairly before the people. May me say, that Labour actually has got quite a good record on it, I mean Labour did after all give the people of Britain a referendum on membership of the European Community, a referendum that was denied by the Conservative Government that took them in without a referendum. HUMPHRYS: So why don't you just come out now at this stage and say: yes we will definitely on these fundamental issues have an referendum, come what may, we will have a referendum. COOK: We're a long way away from any decision being taken. HUMPHRYS: The principle's there? COOK: The principle is a very clear and very important principle, and as I said, we have said that we recognise a very strong case for the people deciding. We have got a very favourable inclination towards letting the people decide, one way of doing it may be a referendum. We've already had, as a result of Labour governments, two referendums in Britain, we're committed to a referendum on electoral reform. It would be entirely consistent with our position if eventually we were to decide on a referendum on a single currency. HUMPHRYS: I'm not sure that your members who are anti-Europe or at least deeply sceptical will be persuaded by what you've said this morning, that you're less than an Euro-enthusiast. Forty voted against the European Finance Bill remember, you were more deeply divided over this than the Tories, sixty six against the third reading of Maastricht. You do have a problem....you've been enjoying the Tories' discomforture, the reality is that you have just as big a problem as they do, isn't it? COOK: If you look at the Labour Party today, it is an united Party with a leader who's just been elected...(interruption) a leader who's just been elected with a massive majority in all sections of its Party, I'd like to see John Major try that. He has a Shadow Cabinet that's united against him, you do not have Shadow Cabinet figures coming out in the way that Portillo and Lilley are coming out against the government's line Europe and that is why of course, in the programme that preceded, you were unable to find a single figure in the Shadow Cabinet arguing against Tony Blair's line. HUMPHRYS: Robin Cook, thank you very much indeed. COOK: Thank you. ...oooOooo...