............................................................................... ON THE RECORD ROY HATTERSLEY INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 21.11.93 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well Roy Hattersley, no other way to do it? ROY HATTERSLEY MP: There are other ways to do it and far better ways to do it. First of all I think it's tragic that the Labour Party should be getting itself into another constitutional argument at this time. We had three years of constitutional arguments, all of which were necessary, all of which were vital to our electability and all of which diverted attention from the real issues. You and I ought to be talking about nursery schools not about the Labour Party's constitution, some real issue, but foolishly in my view the Labour Party has chosen to be diverted again. Now I believe the cause is just, I believe it's absolutely right that more women must be in parliament representing Labour, but this way of doing it is going to produce chaos and is in my view absolutely unworkable, constituencies just won't do it. HUMPHRYS: But tragic's a bit strong isn't it? HATTERSLEY: I think it's tragic we're not going to talk about the real things. I mean we know now that the Labour Party will win the next election if we are concerned with, and visibly concerned with, the gut issues that affect the voter out there. And frankly, dozens, not dozens thousands, tens of thousands of potential Labour voters are thinking what on earth is the Labour Party on about, discussing this arcane subject when it ought to be advancing on all the fronts that really matter to the voters. HUMPHRYS: You say it's unworkable, you say the constituencies won't do it? They're going to have to do it. HATTERSLEY: Well, they may have to do it but we're not dealing in the way Neil Kinnock dealt with some minority which is not representative of the Labour Party, which is damaging to the Labour Party and which is visible as extremists and really cuckooing in the Labour Party's nest. We know that all over the country our constituency is made up of the bedrock of the Labour Party, the solid centre of the Labour Party, the heart and soul of the Labour Party, who say we've cherished the right to select our own candidates as long as the Labour Party's existed and the idea that Walworth Road, the Central Office, should come along and say "You can't choose your own candidate, here are the three or four from whom you can choose" they will resist that very fiercely and that can only lead to difficulty. HUMPHRYS: But it's not really Walworth Road, is it, it's the Labour Party Conference that's approved this, that's voted for it. HATTERSLEY: It's the Labour Party Conference doing what the Labour Party Conference does worst, which is supporting omnibus resolutions. The problems of the Labour Party over the last thirty years have been compounded by the long resolution that had about five or six different issues in it, what in the senate they call "Christmas Treeing" because you hang goodies on the small branches to make sure that the whole tree looks attractive. Now that resolution, as you heard John Smith say, contains some things which were absolutely vital and some things which I believe had the Labour Party thought about them independently they probably wouldn't have supported. HUMPHRYS: But if you hadn't had that particular bit in that particular resolution at Brighton you'd not got OMOV through, would you, because it was one vote... HATTERSLEY: I don't know about that, I don't know how the votes are cast these days, that's all behind me. I know that one member one vote was vital, I know it was a great triumph for John Smith, I know it's put the Labour Party back on the road to genuine democracy. But, this issue which I regard as independent, is in my view unworkable and will actually set the cause of women's representation back as some of the other half-cocked measures have set it back, as the so-called reform in the parliamentary party set it back, as the last attempt insisting that any woman who was nominated got on the shortlist is now generally regarded as having moved back the cause rather than moved it forward. HUMPHRYS: Have you always felt this strongly and if so did you fight it... HATTERSLEY: It was after my time, I mean it didn't happen until I was an insignificant backbencher. HUMPHRYS: Yes but I've not heard you sounding off as strongly as this about it... HATTERSLEY: I was very strongly opposed to the method we had in the parliamentary Labour Party. I actually wanted to see more women in the Shadow Cabinet, but for reasons which were all to do with the mystic of this we got a form of positive discrimination. I'm in favour of positive discrimination, but we got a form which wasn't an open form. If we'd said the top three women/top four women, have to be elected that would have been fine and I would have supported it. What we said is, you have to vote for four women which is getting women extra votes without them seeming to appear to get extra votes. And there's one other thing I feel very strongly about too, I'm in favour of positive discrimination to get a fair balance of women in parliament and on the National Executive, but there's another form of affirmative action we need, the ethnic minorities are pathetically under-represented in the parliamentary Labour Party and if we're going to take these positive steps for women we ought to be taking some positive steps for the black and Asian British as well. HUMPHRYS: All black shortlists? HATTERSLEY: Well I'm against all women shortlists so I'm against all black shortlists. What I'm in favour of is the promotion of the minority groups, in the women's case, the majority in the country, minority in parliament, by a more sensible and more workable method. I wouldn't object at all if we insisted on having women on every shortlist. HUMPHRYS: But look, the point they're making - you know it far better than I - is that if you don't do something like this it isn't going to change, or at least it isn't going to change quickly enough. We've done a bit of number crunching ourselves and we reckon that at the present rate of change - more women coming in - it's going to be at least, at best, forty years before you get your fifty per cent representation. Is that good enough? HATTERSLEY: Of course it's not good enough. If you went on the way we've gone on the last thirty years, the thirty years I've been in parliament you wouldn't make the progress we need to make, but there are other ways of doing it and there's some constitutional and institutional changes that have to be make. As I say, were we to really sensibly, not in the way we did it last time, but sensibly say "When there's a vacancy we absolutely insist on you shortlisting one or two.. HUMPHRYS: Who's we? HATTERSLEY: Walworth Road. HUMPHRYS: Walworth Road. Telling the constituencies what to do again. HATTERSLEY: Telling the constituency that it must have one or two women amongst those who you select from. Let me give you an example: my home town of Sheffield, David Blunkett, who was the heir apparent to the seat he now occupies. Everybody knew the constituency wanted him, he was the local boy, he was the leader of the council, he was the star in Sheffield, they believed he'd become a star in Westminster and they turned out to be right. How absurd it would have been if when Joan Maynard gave up that seat that constituency had been told "You can't have David Blunkett, we're going to find you three women, two from Birmingham, one from Newcastle, I don't know where. HUMPHRYS: You don't have to go to Sheffield, it might happen in your own constituency if you decide not to run again this time. HATTERSLEY: Oh well we'll have to wait a little while, we'll have to wait a little while for that to happen. I think there will be very great difficulties in my constituency, I have a very progressive constituency who very much want to see women promoted but we are finding it difficult to fill all these slots for women in the constituency offices, not because we don't want to but it's a very difficult thing to do. HUMPHRYS: Roy Hattersley, thank you very much indeed. ...oooOooo...