................................................................................ ON THE RECORD INTERVIEW WITH TRISTAN GAREL-JONES RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 26.6.94 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr. Garel-Jones, a defeat for you and your wing of the party this? TRISTAN GAREL-JONES MP: Well not at all, I don't think anyone would describe me as a Euro-sceptic, nevertheless I think the Prime Minister was quite right to take the stand that he did, and I'll tell you why. There are changes going on in Europe, the old thinking, the centralising if you like, federalist thinking, is being questioned, not just in Britain, in Denmark, in France, in Spain in Italy, and I think that the new President of the European
Union needs to be someone who can build a bridge, as it were, between the achievements of the past, the more centralising tendency and the new more inter-governmental movement that exists. And Jean Luc Dehaene, who's a very competent chap in many ways almost one might say, personifies the old thinking about Europe. So I think the Prime Minister was right and nor do I think he's as isolated as you imply, because I think a number of countries will be relieved that the German Presidency now has the opportunity of bringing forward other candidates. HUMPHRYS: Eleven to one is a pretty positive vote isn't it, there's not much room for doubt there? GAREL-JONES: But it's well known isn't it, that four or five countries at least, were extremely unhappy about the way the late candidature of Mr. Dehaene had been brought forward. HUMPHRYS: Not unhappy enough to show it? GAREL-JONES: And it's not the first time in Europe, and I daresay it won't be the last, when Britain alone says and does something
and five or six other countries behind their hands say 'well well done and thank you very much'. HUMPHRYS: A few days ago you were suggesting, indeed you were saying quite clearly that you thought Mr. Deheane was a pretty good chap, could do the job perfectly well, what did you say "constantly referred to in the press as being some sort of federalist maniac, in fact he's a rather competent and rather skilful negotiator, someone who in many respects would be a good President of the European Union". GAREL-JONES: That's what I've just said, I've just said he is a competent and rather good chap, but I think only yesterday, speaking to John Snow I was asked what I thought would happen, and I said that I thought there would be a stand off last night, and that that would be good for Europe and good for Britain because it would enable the German Presidency to bring forward some new candidates. So, yes Dehaene is a perfectly competent and good chap and certainly capable of running the European Union, but he represents the old thinking and I think it's time for some new thinking. HUMPHRYS: But either he's a perfectly competent and good chap, who'd be perfectly good as President, or he's wrong and we've thrown him out, we've vetoed him, used our veto for the first time since Mrs. Thatcher vetoed Claude Cheysson. GAREL-JONES: I don't think it's quite as clear or as crude as you make out, every single candidate who was on the table, including the Dutch, former Dutch Prime Minister, Ruud Lubbers, and Leon Brittan himself, are all competent, I mean you don't get to have your name put forward for a position like that unless you have a certain ability and a certain competence, and of course they all have that. But as I say, I think there is a new mood afoot in Europe, more inter-governmental and we need a President of the Union who understands that and who is able as I say, to build a bridge between the achievements of the past and the way Europe now is. HUMPHRYS: Why shouldn't the Euro-sceptics veto the next one they've been pretty successful with this one, they've tasted blood? GAREL-JONES: The implication there is, which is entirely wrong, is that Euro-sceptics have vetoed this nomination, they haven't done any such thing. I was on a programme earlier this morning with James Cran, who was the first to admit that the Prime Minister is his own man in this matter, he took the Maastricht Treaty through, he took no prisoners there, I'm not a Euro-sceptic, I strongly support the stance that the Prime Minister has taken, I don't think for one minute he's been influenced by that. HUMPHRYS: But I thought you said the only problem was that he'd been rejected by the slightly more sceptical or less enthusiastic ... GAREL-JONES: I didn't say that at all, I said that what we need in the European Union now is someone who is able to take on board what is happening throughout Europe, in France, Spain, Italy, Denmark, there's change of mood and also a change of structure, the Maastricht Treaty actually changed the structure of Europe, it does now have very important inter-governmental elements and I think Jean-Luc Dehaene was never sympathetic to that change in the Maastricht Treaty, indeed when the Prime Minister argued for it at Maastricht, it was the Belgian Government that argued most strongly against the new structures of the European Union, so I don't think he would have been suitable. HUMPHRYS: So who will be, who's your man? GAREL-JONES: Well it's very difficult to say, I think it is quite easy to think of three, four, five or six, perfectly competent people from other European countries. I doubt if Britain or Holland will put forward a candidate again, because we put forward I think our best candidate was Sir Leon, consensus was not achieved around him, so I don't think he will stand again, nor do I think will Ruud Lubbers, nor indeed do I think will Dehaene. HUMPHRYS: The last time we vetoed somebody, as I say, it was Claude Cheysson, we got Delors and we vetoed Cheysson because we thought he was too federalist. Look what we ended up with. GAREL-JONES: Well I'm not sure that it's helpful to sort of job back and say whether Claude Cheysson would have been different to Delors, Delors again has been demonised in this country, Jacques Delors has driven forward among other things, the Single Market, of which Britain and Mrs. Thatcher herself were strong advocates. The trouble with the Single Market is that it produced a glut of legislation, not just in our parliament, but in other parliaments, which was very often intrusive and silly, and that has I think undermined many people's view of the Community. HUMPHRYS: Do you want to give me one name? GAREL-JONES: No, I think not, because I think what we need now is for names to come from others, our candidate has failed to achieve consensus, we need to see what other names come forward. HUMPHRYS: Tristan Garel-Jones, thanks very much indeed. ...oooOooo.....