................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 20.10.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Trimble, I saw you shake your head a number of times during the course of that short report and we'll come to your reservations in a moment. But can I ask you first whether it can have been, whether it really was any sort of proper breakthrough so long as Sinn Fein is not at the Talks? DAVID TRIMBLE: When the Prime Minister announced at the end of February the present Talks Process he said that Sinn Fein were being given the opportunity to take part but that if they didn't take that opportunity by declaring a ceasefire and making the necessary commitment to the Mitchell Principles then the Talks would go on without them. In my view we've now reached that stage, we've had to wait an awful long time, in our view far too long and the time has now come I think, for the Government and for the other Parties to acknowledge that there isn't the slightest prospect of Sinn Fein making the necessary commitments and it's time we got down to serious business. HUMPHRYS: Not the slightest prospect. So there'd be no point in my saying to you what do they have to do to get into the Talks. TRIMBLE: Well what they had to do was set out by the Government back in February, that there had to be a ceasefire, only this time of course it would have to be a real ceasefire, would have to be meant instead of the pretence we had before and then the commitment to the Mitchell Principles which include a commitment to decommissioning. HUMPHRYS: You've seen Mr Major, what twice since the Lisbon bomb I think, last week and the week before that and you talked about this phrase of the dependable and reliable ceasefire. What did you ask him to do? TRIMBLE: Well we've had the opportunity of seeing the Talks moving into substantive issues and here is..where I think your introduction was completely wide of the beam. We've been pressing for this for months and what has been happening since July is that other Parties have been refusing to talk about decommissioning which the Government said would be discussed at the beginning and we agreed they should be so discussed. That's why we couldn't get agreement on an agenda because they didn't want to discuss decommissioning. We got their agreement finally to discuss decommissioning and have been discussing it, the first item on the agenda took thirty-one minutes last Tuesday and the Talks since then have been engaged in discussion which up until now other parties had been reluctant to enter into. What we now need is for this issue of decommissioning to be settled, as I said yesterday and of course the question of a ceasefire to be properly defined because there are some loopholes there. So that we can then go past those issues because there're now largely academic issues because it is very clear that Sinn Fein cannot realistically expect to enter the process unless they have a complete change of heart. But we should now go past those issues and get into the substantive Talks because again, as I said yesterday, realistically we don't have very much time before the onset of the General Election closes down the serious talking. HUMPHRYS: So to stay with the ceasefire for a moment. What you're saying is that Mr Major has to, as it were, raise the threshold before Sinn Fein could even think about getting into the Talks. TRIMBLE: I'm not sure that it's raising the threshold. I think it's a matter of just defining precisely what is meant by a credible ceasefire in the present circumstances because there's too much loose usage and I think too much loose thinking on the matter and people think if we have another pretend ceasefire, similar to the last one that that would entitle Sinn Fein to enter the process. I don't think that was ever the intention of Government and it certainly was never our intention. It was always our intention that if there was a ceasefire it would have to be a genuine one. HUMPHRYS: But I mean they've perhaps deliberately not defined it too tightly because that closes off options doesn't it and in these delicate matters you want to leave your options open surely. TRIMBLE: Well I bring you back to what the Government said in February, they were giving Sinn Fein a chance and they have been given a chance. But if Sinn Fein didn't take the opportunity the Talks would go on without them. Now I think it's that we need to get clarified that there is now a willingness on the part of the SDLP, the Government and the Irish Government too to go on with Talks without Sinn Fein. Up until now they have been holding back the Talks in the hope that Sinn Fein would join. I think realistically there isn't any prospect of that happening and we've got to be prepared to go on without them. Now it's a crossroads and it's a question of which road we're going down. You can't say we're going to go on without them while at the same door..same time saying we'll mark time and hope that they come on. I think we've got to be prepared now to go on. HUMPHRYS: But of course you are prepared to go on but the problem is that you're not being even-handed here are you. You're prepared to sit down and talk to Loyalists..with Loyalists Paramilitaries, or
people representing Loyalist Paramilitaries, but not with the other lot. TRIMBLE: John there is no comparison and I think that their campaign is quite wrong to make the comparison. Loyalist Paramilitaries declare a ceasefire and they've kept it. HUMPHRYS: No, no not entirely they haven't. What would you call the shooting of Mr McGoldrick (phon) what would you call the Loyalist beatings that take place occasionally. They haven't surrendered a single weapon, they haven't...we heard it on that film report. We heard Mr Ervine with his threat there. TRIMBLE: Right. Thank you for letting me get in there. There is no comparison. You're quite right to refer to the murder of Mr McGoldrick (phon) and that was at a time when the Loyalist ceasefire was very very fragile indeed. A murder condemned by ourselves and I think actually by the leadership of the paramilitary organisation concerned. But there is no comparison. I could bring you back to this point, there is no comparison between the Loyalist Paramilitaries and the Republican Paramilitaries and they have not been bombing, they have not engaged on a murder campaign and they have given commitments to the Mitchell Principles and they have said they're willing to decommission as Mitchell proposes alongside other paramiliataries. So I think there's wrong to draw this comparison and I think it would be wrong to hold back the Parties related to the Loyalist Paramilitaries because of Sinn Fein. Indeed I think it's wrong to hold back the whole process because of Sinn Fein. HUMPHRYS: As far as decommissioning is concerned, you said there were more loopholes to be closed. What other loopholes do you want closed? TRIMBLE: I think, I used the term 'loopholes' with regard to the ceasefire. With regard to the issue of decommissioning, we have been in discussion with the Government on this several weeks ago and we had some very useful discussions with them, as a result of which we were able to define the issues which we now think need to be settled. Well, obviously, we want to see the legislation proceeding, we want to see steps being taken as quickly as possible to establish the verification commission. We want to see agreement on timetables and procedures that should be followed if and when Sinn Fein enter into the process. And, we have said that if that is set in train, and if we've got reliable enough assurances and commitments from the Government, can see ourselves going into substantive talks, even before the legislation is on the Statute Book, even before the Commission is formally constituted. So I think that was a very generous offer, on our part to go ahead into substantive talks, even though the necessary steps in decommissioning have not yet been taken. HUMPHRYS: But, it would be if you were prepared to make further concessions. Are you prepared to make further concessions? Given that you have made concessions, that is. TRIMBLE: We're prepared to enter into serious discussions and we have entered into serious discussions with people. And, as a result of things that we have said and done, this process has moved. And, wouldn't have moved if it depended on other parties. So, I think, you don't have to ask us that. We've shown that we're serious. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's test a bit of that seriousness, then. Are you prepared to accept a greater part for Dublin in the affairs of Northern Ireland, which is something - as you well know, the Constitutional part? TRIMBLE: Why should Dublin have greater say in Northern Ireland? Why should Dublin have any say in Northern Ireland? The Irish Government is elected by the electorate of the Irish Republic. It's not accountable to it. Why should it exercise power outside the boundaries of its own state? HUMPHRYS: Because- TRIMBLE: ..with people to whom it's not accountable. We've not elected it and this is a very negation of any form of democratic procedures. When you consider the extent to which people in England complain about Brussels fingers stretching into the nooks and crannies of English life, have a thought about the extent to which Dublin's fingers already stretch far too far into life in Northern Ireland and have caused serious problems as a result of that. No. We're prepared to have a decent relationship with the Republic of Ireland and I think the Republic of Ireland knows the model that we have in mind on this and it's the same model that applies elsewhere in Europe. HUMPHRYS: So- TRIMBLE: And, if the Irish Government is going to implement, or is prepared to implement its international obligations, its obligations under international law then you'll find that we're happy to go with that. But, we're not going to hand power to people who are not elected, who are going to exercise it in a sectarian and one-sided manner, as they have done throughout the eleven years that that dastardly agreement has been in existence. HUMPHRYS: So, not a lot of concession, there, is there? TRIMBLE: No. I think, it's time for the Irish to come to terms with reality. And, I think, this is what is necessary. HUMPHRYS: And, isn't this the reality that we are as far away from any sort of agreement as we ever have been? TRIMBLE: No. HUMPHRYS: And, you make that perfectly clear in that answer, don't you? TRIMBLE: No. I said that with regard to something that I regard as completely illegitimate. HUMPHRYS: But, which the nationalist- TRIMBLE: And, any reasonable man must also regard it as illegitimate that a foreign government should exercise power within our own country. But, in terms of whether agreements are close or far, cast your mind back to the talks in 1992 and they came very close to agreement - very, very close to agreement. And, there are matters there to which we can return and we think there is a prospect of seeing some serious business done there. HUMPHRYS: Well, you say that but you dismiss the idea of Dublin getting involved anymore in the affairs of Northern Ireland with absolute contempt, notwithstanding the fact that a third of the population of Northern Ireland represented by nationalist Parties believe that to be the way to go. That is the road down which they wish to travel. TRIMBLE: Well you .... HUMPHRYS: You say we will not even contemplate it. TRIMBLE: Well, why you - I come back to the point I made to you, John - is it reasonable to say that a foreign government should exercise power within Northern Ireland or, indeed, within any part of the United Kingdom? What is the basis for doing so? HUMPHRYS: Well, because a third of the population of Northern Ireland says yes, it is. That's why you have to take it seriously, is it not? TRIMBLE: Right, then, we'll have to go to the Romanian Government and tell them they must allow the Hungarian Government to exercise power within Romania because there are nearly two million Hungarians. We'll have to say the same to the Slovakian Government, will we? Or, will we do what they do and what all of Europe does and follow the principles which the British and Irish Governments have signed up to in the agreements they've entered into in the organisation for security and co-operation of Europe and the agreements they've entered into in the Council of Europe? Now, we say to both Governments: you signed these agreements, you signed that agreement - both Governments signed an agreement last year on the rights of national minorities. Why don't you apply that agreement? Why don't you practice in Northern Ireland which you preach for other countries- HUMPHRYS: So- TRIMBLE: -instead of introducing an entirely novel arrangement that nobody else in Europe would look at. HUMPHRYS: So, you are in the same old trenches, fighting the same old battle and the prospect of peace - in any sense at all - is, as I said at the start of this interview, just as far away as it ever was? TRIMBLE: Well, look. We're in a sensible position. We're in the sort of position that every other country in Europe was in and the people who are out of step are those who are trying to exercise power. Those Irish politicians - and, not all of them, incidentally - they're only some of them - who want to try and acquire power, who want to bring into effect their illegal territorial claim. That's what they're trying to do and I think what you should be saying is to those people who wish to give effect to their aggressive, territorial claim that they should come into line with the practice everywhere else in Europe. And, they should accept the same sort of principles that all other European countries accept and which we think should apply here. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thank you very much, indeed. ...oooOOOooo...