................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 17.11.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Now, Northern Ireland. Any day now, there's going to be a statement from Mr Major about the multi-Party talks that have been going on since the summer. They haven't got far and they do not include representatives of Sinn Fein. It's believed Mr Major will spell out the conditions under which Sinn Fein might join in. Whatever he says can it possibly be enough to satisfy the other vital players in the game: the Ulster Unionists. Their Leader is David Trimble and he's on the line from Belfast. Good Afternoon, Mr Trimble. DAVID TRIMBLE MP: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: The Government has been making another apparently serious attempt to get Sinn Fein involved in these talks. Are they right to do it and the way they're going about it, has that been right? TRIMBLE: Well, I supported the Government earlier this year when they set up the talks process and said that they were giving Sinn Fein the opportunity to join in but that if Sinn Fein did not join in, the talks would go on without them. Now, Sinn Fein have been given a chance but instead of joining in, we've had - what? The Canary Wharf bomb, the Manchester bomb, the Aldwych bomb, the bomb in Lisburn, the bomb in Fermanagh. We've had nothing but violence since then. And, I think, it is, actually, flying in the face of the evidence in reality to think that there's any prospect of Sinn Fein accepting the requirements that everyone had agreed on - namely that they'd commit themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process. So, in our view, we should now be committing ourselves to go forward with the existing Parties and that's been our position for some time. Unfortunately, the Government seems to be still dithering, unable to do so and still yearning after Sinn Fein's involvement. HUMPHRYS: So, Mr Major - the Government - is wrong not to acknowledge that the talks have to proceed without Sinn Fein, to accept that inevitability, in your view? TRIMBLE: I think, this is the reality but there's some people who are not living in the real world, who think that there is - who believe the rumours emanating from Sinn Fein about ceasefires and commitment to peaceful means. But, we now know that the previous ceasefire was fradulent from the outset. We can see what Sinn Fein are doing at the moment and what these rumours that Sinn Fein have put into circulation are designed to do, in my view, is to hold the talks back, to frustrate the talks and unfortunately, Government's allowing them to succeed in their aim of frustrating the talks. HUMPHRYS: So, you are suggesting, it seems, that, perhaps, Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland Secretary, isn't living in the real world? TRIMBLE: I fear that's the case. I mean, I was quite amazed at the speech that he gave in Manchester and quite -not quite the appropriate place to go to engage in sending signals to the IRA, I would have thought. But, in that speech, earlier this evening, he seemed to be concerned simply to respond to the IRA and to their demands. I think, what he should be doing is paying more attention to the eighty-five per cent who are committed to democratic politics and to concentrate on trying to make sure that the democratic process produces something for a change, instead of allowing it to be frustrated by the demands of the IRA. HUMPHRYS: Are you losing confidence in Sir Patrick Mayhew? TRIMBLE: Well, we disagree with his approach. HUMPHRYS: What's that mean? TRIMBLE: We disagree with his approach. We think he's got his priorities wrong and I think he should have as his priorities that of trying to make sure that the political process succeeds, rather than having us as priority, trying to induce Sinn Fein to enter the process. HUMPHRYS: So, so long as he continues to do that - and, as you say there has been this apparent dialogue between him and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein during these past couple of days, in which they seem to have agreed on all manner of things, if we're to believe the reports of what they've been saying - you've got grave reservations? TRIMBLE: Well, as I say, he's got his-My view is that he's got his priorities wrong. That's what I told him last week and I do hope that the Government will get agrip of itself and operate in the real world. HUMPHRYS: This is more than just you saying: I disagree with his approach, isn't it? I mean, what seems to be happening here is that there is a fundamental difference between you and the British Government over this whole process? TRIMBLE: Well, as I started out by saying, I supported the Government when they launched this process, saying as they did that they were going to give Sinn Fein the chance to get involved. But, if Sinn Fein didn't take that chance, by putting in place a ceasefire and committing themselves to peaceful means in the democratic process then the talks would go on without them. Now, I think, we've reached that awkward moment where you have to make a choice. But rather than actually make the choice that the circumstances dictate, the Government is dithering. They're trying to have it both ways, rather than to commit itself to what the situation cries out for. Now, there is, obviously, a difference of view, a difference of assessment between ourselves and, apparently, the Government at the moment. But, to paint that as being a fundamental difference is, I think, pushing it a little too far. HUMPHRYS: Well, hang on, I mean, the Government isn't dithering here, is it? The Government is saying quite clearly: we believe that peace is still achievable and the way to get that peace is to include Sinn Fein in this process. The Government's quite clear on its approach and its aims. TRIMBLE: Well, I'll remind you of where we were a few months ago and of the statements by the Government that if Sinn Fein didn't take the chance that was offered to them by declaring a ceasefire then the talks would go on without them. And, we're saying to them that in our assessment that is the situation at the moment and that's what should be done in terms of the talks. But, the Government just seems reluctant to come to the obvious conclusion. And, the conclusion is obvious. When you look at the actions of Sinn Fein and bear in mind also the press reports today indicating that hardliners - people who are heavily committed to violence and to the renewed bombing campaign - have been moved into key positions within the IRA, within recent weeks. Bear in mind the evidence of the finds by the Metropolitan Police in London, of the raids made by the IRA in London within recent weeks and expected, the assessment that's coming from the Police and the security services that we're in for a period of renewed violence. Now, these are the realities and there is an element, I'm afraid, within Government that's having difficulty facing up to these realities and appreciating what needs to be done. HUMPHRYS: But surely they have faced up to those realities. They're not blind to them anymore than you are and they have said, notwithstanding all of that: we believe that to include Sinn Fein is the way towards peace. You believe that that isn't? TRIMBLE: Bear in mind Sinn Fein's demands because Sinn Fein has made it very clear, in recent weeks, what the price is for their inclusion in the Talks, namely the dropping of all preconditions, the acceptance of a time frame, removing the Principle of Consent. If Government is going to accede to those demands, that means throwing away the provisions and the legislation that set up the Talks. And, it means that as a result of IRA violence there will have been massive Government surrenders in terms of basic principles. Now I think Government needs to think carefully about this - is that what they're proposing to do? Because if they are, then I think we'll not have peace but instead renewed violence because the Government will have demonstrated to Sinn Fein and to others that planting bombs in London, Manchester, Belfast and Fermanagh has worked. Now that's not the message to send. HUMPHRYS: At what stage do you say, there really isn't any point in proceeding, in going on with this process as it stands -
certainly before the-in the period leading up to the Election? Therefore we think the whole thing should just be put on hold. TRIMBLE: Well we're not at that point, despite my difference of assessment... with the Government as to what we should be doing at the present moment. We are going to persevere in terms of persuading the Government to commit itself to serious talks with the present Parties. We will perservere about that. There may very well come a time when, as you say, the assessment that you've mentioned - that we can't precede much further this side of the General Election - may have to be made. But, we haven't reached that yet. HUMPHRYS: And at what point do you, as the leader of a Party that in a sense, holds the balance of power - just about anyway, at Westminster? Well I know 'just about'- TRIMBLE: 'Just'. That 'just about anyway' conceals the fact that we don't! HUMPHRYS: Alright. But, one vote in it at the moment, a by-Election coming up. Then there'll - presumably - be no votes in it. So that's balance of power if ever there was one. At what point do you say: if this Government is not serving what I believe and my Party believes to be the best interests of Northern Ireland we will say you have lost our support, we will do our damnedst to bring this Government down? TRIMBLE: I can't actually imagine that we would publicly say that: we will do our damnedst to bring any Government down". HUMPHRYS: Why not? TRIMBLE: It may be that the situation will arise where we will have to decide as, I will imagine, like I expect, that before too long, issues will arise which involve matters of confidence. We will then make a choice in the light of the situation then as to whether we have or have not confidence in the Government. HUMPHRYS: Why not? Why if you are mostly concerned, as the leader of the Ulster Unionists with the future of Northern Ireland, why would you never say: but hang on this Government isn't doing what we think is right and proper for Northern Ireland? Why might you never say, so therefore the next logical step is to bring them down? Isn't the reality that you can't do that because the alternative, a possible Labour Government might be even worse. TRIMBLE: Well, I don't have a crystal ball and so I don't know what the alternatives will be. There may be circumstances where we would vote against the Government on a confidence issue - yes, indeed. HUMPHRYS: At what stage? TRIMBLE: I can't tell you that, I don't have a crystal ball. HUMPHRYS: But if there were to be a confidence issue next week for instance would you say: right, that's it we'll vote against 'em? TRIMBLE: Well if there is a confidence issue next week, then, we'll consider it. I mean we're not going to be scared of taking decisions on this as we demonstrated this week with our vote on the issue of BSE, where we took that vote knowing that it could in turn trigger off a confidence vote if the Government lost it because Labour might have put a confidence vote down. So if the situation arises we'll take decisions and we'll take decisions in the light of our assessment of the situation. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thanks very much indeed. ....OOOO....