................................................................................ ON THE RECORD SIR LEON BRITTAN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 4.10.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Sir Leon, you're going to be hammered, there's not much doubt about that, is there. So, can Mr Hague, should not Mr Hague be entitled to expect you to keep quiet after that. SIR LEON BRITTAN: Well I'm afraid - of course the result is a foregone conclusion - but I do think it's inconceivable that that will be the end of the matter and it's inconceivable because of the pressure of events. The Euro is actually going to come into existence at the beginning of next year. There will be intense interest in it and to say that the whole argument is closed, the Conservative Party afterall has not decided its policy on anything else for the next election, and to say that's it, when two hundred thousand or whatever it is, people have voted in a particular direction, when the Conservative Party has got to win back four and a half million people, it's just not possible. And apart from the pressure of events and the fact that the party has got to win over all those people back, there is also the fact that the British business community is seriously worried about the Conservative Party's official stance and I think they will get more worried when the Euro comes into existence. And I think that they will be very concerned at the Conservative Party alienating itself from its natural roots. And for all those reasons I just don't think that this can possibly resolve things definitively. HUMPHRYS: There may or may not be something in all of what you say. But the fact is the Tory Party will have spoken and you say two hundred thousand people, they happen to be, if that's what they are, if that's what the figure is, they happen to be two hundred thousand Conservative Party members. They are supporting the decision of the leadership. Therefore that is democracy in action. Mr Hague has said then the argument will be over. BRITTAN: Well, no. What the Conservative Party will have decided in a perfectly legitimate way. It may think it's unwise to have insisted on taking that decision and polarising the issue in that way. But will be the official position of the Conservative Party. HUMPHRYS: Democratically arrived at. BRITTAN: Absolutely. That will be decided, for
the moment, nothing lasts for ever. But, on the other hand, the argument will continue and the discussion will continue and the discussion will continue in the Conservative Party. Now what many of us would have perferred was not to try and bring this issue to a head in this way, but to recognise the fact that on European questions there have been divisions in both parties for a generation. And the only thing to do, is to recognise that and to say that we know that there are different views and that the party itself will wait until much nearer the General Election, seeing how events go on and take a view. Now, if you think that it could never be the case that Britain could join the Single Currency, well that's one story. But that's not the official position that the leadership is seeking and if you are not saying never, then it can't be right to say three and a half years before the next General Election what the position is going to be for a whole five years after that. HUMPHRYS: But if the leader thinks it's right. If the leadership thinks it's right, if the members by their vote think it is right, then who are you to say no we will continue to talk. Afterall Mr Hague has said: I can carry on without them, without you lot. BRITTAN: Well, John it's a very curious concept of democracy to say that when there's been a vote that ends the argument. Particularly when the events are moving on. HUMPHRYS: Otherwise you'd never settle anything. BRITTAN: The policy is decided. Of course that is the official policy of the Conservative Party. But it doesn't make it the right policy and it doesn't mean that all Conservatives are going to agree with it. And in fact, it is quite unlike, for example, burying Clause Four because that was the case of burying some legacy from the past. Here this is an issue for the future. And when eleven countries on our doorstep with whom we are closely related through membership of the European Union, go ahead with this. And it has a profound impact on the British economy whether we are in or not, seriously to expect people to say: oh, well we're not discussing this, that's all been decided by a vote of these two hundred thousand people, is just not reality. But also, the other point is that people do feel strongly about it. Now, to be fair to the leadership, they are not saying that nobody should say a word more about it. They are.. HUMPHRYS: Pretty much. BRITTAN: No, no,.. HUMPHRYS: But Michael Ancram: 'if they continue to speak out they will be seen to be speaking out against the democratically expressed views of party members'. Very clear there. BRITTAN: That's a right that people always have. HUMPHRYS: He seemed to think that you don't have it any longer. BRITTAN: No, he didn't say that. HUMPHRYS: 'If they continue to speak out, they will continue to speak out..' BRITTAN: Of course, they will be. But they will be prefectly entitled in a free country to do that. HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe not in the Tory Party, free country yes, leave the party and you can say what you like, but within the party keep your mouth shut - that's the message. BRITTAN: That's not been what the Conservative leadership has said. But whether it is or it isn't, the fact of the matter is that there are... HUMPHRYS: Mr Hague said the members will give you short shrift if you carry on. BRITTAN: There are significant numbers of people who just don't agree with this line and there will be more. And the business community will not agree with it. HUMPHRYS: Within the party, they'll change their minds? BRITTAN: I think people will change their minds as they see the Single Currency coming to existence and having an effect and I think that that will change. And the argument will be developed further. But that, I mean I just think that it is completely contrary to the pragmatic traditions of the Conservative Party to take one issue, however important it is, and to decide it's line on that issue, three and a half years before an election, when the Conservative Party does not have a policy.. HUMPHRYS: We'll come to that in a minute. BRITTAN: ..on environment, on education, on tax and rightly so, because if you do form a policy too early, either it is superseeded by events, or the government sees if it is the right.. HUMPHRYS: Alright, we'll come to the substance of it in a moment, but if the leadership - if Mr Hague himself has said: this is what I want to do, and if the party supports me this is what the policy will be, by continuing to speak out you will clearly be causing damage to the party... BRITTAN: I'm very surprised that you of all people should be espousing such an authoritarian view. HUMPHRYS: I'm merely a mouthpiece, as you know I - the stuff goes in there and comes out there ... the views ... BRITTAN: It sounds authoritarian in the way that I can't imagine..... HUMPHRS: A remark you must address to your leader and not to me. BRITTAN: Oh, no, no, no, because I think you're misrepresenting it that William Hague or - no I feel alarmed that either we... HUMPHRYS: ... is over, I can go on without them, I mean.... BRITTAN: Of course, but that doesn't mean that people can't express their view, and won't express their view. Now you are trying to impose or interpret a sort of authoritarianism that William Hague and Michael Howard who's coming after me I'm sure wouldn't dream of saying. Of course the party ... HUMPHRYS: We shall see. BRITTAN: We shall see. Of course the party will have voted, but free speech doesn't end there. This isn't Stalinist Russia where once the party has voted - or just a moment, or decided anything, nobody else can say a single word. (INTERRUPTION) And that's not the way we would want this country to .... HUMPHRYS: But I mean how many of your old colleagues during the last election campaign said, "We're gonna lose this election unless people keep their mouths shut. Look at the damage they're doing". Voters don't like to see a divided party. BRITTAN: Of course they don't, but that's why I think that a better course would have been not to seek to bring the issue to a head. That's the important point. I think that it is precisely because it was wholly predicable that on this issue where feelings are strong, where things matter, where people of substance have established important positions which they're not going to change, and where they can't just say "I'm not going to say a word about it" - what do you expect Ken Clarke to do if asked when the Single Currency is created, what do you think about it, to say "I'm sorry, to say... HUMPHRYS: Tell us what our policy is, this is my party's policy. I can't quite see Ken doing it, it must be said, but.... BRITTAN: Well, it's inconceivable, but not only is it inconceivable, it was predictably conceivable. Therefore this device of having an election before the conference even debates a referendum, before the conference even debates the thing, was doomed to fail if it was meant to stifle discussion, and predictably, and that's why it would have been better not to do this. It would have been better to simply say: we recognise there are divisions, we will take a view, we've up to now had the view that we will leave the matter open for the moment, that was John Major's position, and it was a sensible one as it happened. Now some of us are in favour of going in, but that was a sensible one. HUMPHRYS: But why is not sensible equally to say: we want to see how the Euro fares in good times and in bad throughout an entire economic cycle, we want to see how that is. You can't do that in three years can you. You need to see the whole process through, then we can make a judegement. That's what the ..Mr Hague is saying isn't it? BRITTAN: Well, because the cycle or the period of time which enables you to take a view, if you want to wait that time, cannot be dictated by the measuring rod of British electoral process. There's absolutely no reason why the duration of the next parliament should be the appropriate period in which to take a view, and it might be the case that one would take a view, and should take a view before that comes. The other point of course is this, and I speak as somebody who has been in favour of Britain joining for a long time, that if we wait a year or two after our partners start ahead, well they're not going to race ahead so fast that it's going to matter, but if this works, if it is beneficial, the longer we wait the harder it's going to be because the benefits will be enjoyed by others, and we won't enjoy them. And secondly of course there are important decisions to be made about the operation of the Single Currency but also about the use that Europe makes of its new power, which Britain will simply not be a party to. Now, you're seeing now a world economic crisis. After next January willy-nilly the eleven countries that form what's going to be called 'Euro-land', that's shorthand - will have to take a collective view on that, and it will be a view that will have a massive impact on Britain and on the world, and Britain will not be party to that. And you can say that that doesn't matter to start with, but the longer that goes on, the more damaging it becomes, damaging to Britain's influence in Europe, damaging to Britain's influence in the world and damaging to the British economy. HUMHRYS: It could be of course that what the Conservative Party leadership is about is really saying here, - there's a hidden agenda here - is we actually don't want to go in ever - that's what this is about. BRITTAN: Well, that wouldn't be very honest would it, because I hope and believe that colleagues and friends of mine who I know as well as William Hague and Michael Howard, if they thought that would have the honesty to say so. I know that there are some people who think that, but I think this debate has been long enough in the Conservative Party that if you want to put an end to it, and that's really what you say, you've got to come and say that, and that realy is the ambiguity of the position which makes it, I think, very difficult to defend, to say - if you said no, never, fine, I would passionately disagree with that, but that's a clear position. But to say: well, we haven't said that, but we're waiting for a fixed and named period of time during which we won't join in, seems to me wrong, and it's clear from opinion polls that the public share that view - the public can understand and know, but they can't understand that, and it's wholly contrary to the pragmatic traditions of the Conservative Party to take that kind of line. HUMPHRYS: So by tomorrow afternoon, tomorrow evening, whenever we know the result of the ballot, whatever the ballot says, as far as you're concerned nothing really will have changed. BRITTAN: No, something will have changed. The Conservative Party will by proper constitutional procedures, have taken a decision as to what its position is. HUMPHRYS: But your position won't have changed and you will continue to defend your position. BRITTAN: But you can't seriously expect those who have thought about these things - and this is not just some trivial thing to say: Oh well, we don't agree with that - it doesn't matter - simply to say: I refuse to answer questions on this. I take part in debates, you invite me to, other people too. Am I going to say, "Sorry,I can't say anything about that, because the party activists have voted. It would be a ludicrous position to ask Ken Clarke or Michael Heseltine or David Curry or Ian Clark or any of these people - or Ian Taylor for me to do. It's just absolutely inconceivable, and that's why this device was never going to work. It was going to work in establishing what the official policy is, but it wasn't going to work if the purpose was to end debate in the Conservative Party, and I don't think that anybody expects that it will end debate in the Conservative Party. HUMPHRYS: Sir Leon Brittan, thank you very much indeed. ....oooOooo....