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NB. THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT; BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES, OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS ACCURACY ON THE RECORD ROMANO PRODI INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 9.5.99
=================================================================== JOHN HUMPHRYS: On Wednesday, the former Italian Prime Minister, Romano Prodi, won the approval of the European Parliament for his nomination as the next President of the European Commission. Mr Prodi will be a much more powerful figure than his predecessor - more of a Jacques Delors than a Jacques Santer - and will lead the European Union towards greater integration - no question about that. But Mr Prodi won't be taking over until September. Until then the old Commission will stay in place, even though they resigned in disgrace in March following a damning report by a committee of auditors - the so-called wise men. And to the surprise of many people, Mr Prodi has said that he will allow a number of them to stay on in his new Commission. I went to Rome to talk to Mr Prodi about his plans for the Presidency. And I began by asking him whether, in view of the Wise Men's criticisms of the existing Commission, he shouldn't now make a clean break with the past and choose an entirely new Commission. ROMANO PRODI: The wise man, you know report he lists responsibilities but he doesn¹t give responsibility to all the Commissioners, so if and I say if there are good old Commissioners that behaved well and that are strong and intelligent men why not to keep them. HUMPHRYS: But some people would say even if there were no sins of Commission of the part of all of the old Commissioners there was at least a sin of omission, they knew that things were going badly, they knew things were happening that should not have been happening and they did not act. PRODI: Oh, well if there is sin of omission of course the Commissioner will not be re-appointed. But not, not in all cases and not in general cases all the Commissioners knew and not all the problems were put in the general meeting of the Commissioners you know that I I I only say that we have to be serious and careful and to find the real responsibility and to defend people who are not guilty. HUMPHRYS: But the auditors when they made that report said it is becoming difficult to find anyone, anyone who has even the slightest sense of responsibility in the old Commission. PRODI: Well ah, this is one phrase of the auditors that I analyse it very well, but all the reports they are distinction among Commissioners, they are making a distinction they make graduation, you have taken one phrase but all the spirit of their report, the first report because I¹m waiting for a second one. You know. So I¹m speaking ah, for the news I am in this moment you know, for the knowledge I have in this moment. But in the first report there is a real graduation of sins as you call them. HUMPHRYS: When you say you are waiting for another report, if that says we have misgivings about the entire Commission for the reasons that I have just given you, would you then be prepared to say then none of them should stay on? PRODI: Well only if I¹m convinced because.. HUMPHRYS: You¹re open to being persuaded are you? PRODI: Yeah. But the report, you know the wise man advise is in advice. You know, I¹m obliged to you know, think taking a part of that advice but what I¹m convinced here that you know they ah, good for the Commission and the good for Europe. You know, this is my, I have to run the government you know, so I have I have a personal responsibility on that. HUMPHRYS: As we¹ve been saying, under the Amsterdam Treaty you have considerable power when it comes to appointing the commission and what posts the individuals get. In reality will you not have to accept the recommendations of the individual member states? PRODI: No. Ah, I am not obliged to accept. We¹ve already had many many exchange of view and it is very clear you know, I have a veto right but veto is only you know an extreme behaviour, what is more important is to shape a common will in the interest of Europe you know. In case of really different I shall exercise the veto right HUMPHRYS: You will? PRODI: Because, because yes it isŠ HUMPHRYS: What sort of reason might you, I mean if for instance a government, a British government or any government, were to recommend somebody who you felt was not a sufficiently serious individual, perhaps hadn¹t held a serious ministerial post. PRODI: This is, these are the first reason, but I think I may also refuse for let¹s say less more strongly more a reason, but for reasons of opportunity. Let¹s say there is no woman indicated by any government, I look, I try to persuade we need and I want to have women in the Commission HUMPHRYS: But you can¹t go to a single government and say: Œyou must have a woman¹ - can you? PRODI: Oh, well in the end I, if nobody wants, in the end I will be obliged to tell look we have more opportunity please you have two Commissioners, one of them this is a simple case you know. Or another case, very simple that will be, I think, may happen. You have ah, nineteen Economists or nineteen lawyers. HUMPHRYS: Heaven forbid PRODI: It may happen. HUMPHRYS: You¹ve got to be careful in a sense haven¹t you because if you appoint just one individual who is unacceptable to the parliament, when it comes, it can say: we¹ll throw out the whole lot. PRODI: This is one of the reason you know. I, you know the Parliament make a scrutiny of the individual members of the Commission. So I have to be very careful to choose all them individually because if one - of course I can change one - but you know that it¹s not a nice, you know a nice event to have one of your Commissioners chosen you know sacked by the Parliament. That, you know, is a problem. HUMPHRYS: I notice that during our conversation you¹ve talked about the commission as the government and you talk about wanting it to be strong, a strong commission, a strong government. What do you mean by strong? PRODI: Can Europe take - I use the same word - strong decisions if needed as Europe. And you know this means the problem of having a set of common rights, a set of, the problem of citizenship, of having people rights of minority, of having mobility of workers, opportunity for young people, this all set of issues. The second is decisions of foreign policy now we have the Balkans here, and there is this contradiction in Europe. Everybody blames Europe because we didn¹t do anything, you know, and everybody asks Europe to do something. But very few are coherent, they say if we have to do something, we have to give power in some way power of decision that must be quick, clear and shared. HUMPHRYS: So that means that this Commission has to be more, has to be stronger than the previous one? PRODI: Yeah. Well must be and may be because the Amsterdam Treaty is giving the power to be stronger. So it¹s needed. People think that there is a need for a stronger Commission. The Amsterdam Treaty gives a good possibility of that you know. And I think that we have to show with a good honest and clear policy that we deserve it and this is a good for everybody. HUMPHRYS: So when you say that you want - as you have said - to increase the Commission¹s scope for political involvement, you mean that you want it to be more of a government, to behave more like a government than like a bureaucracy, than like a group of civil servants? PRODI: This is clear. Well you must have a government and a good civil serviceŠ HUMPHRYS: Of course - the commission should be more than that.. PRODI: The problem with the old Commission was that there was a grey zone, a grey area between political responsibility and civil servants¹ responsibility and what is called in European Service responsibility the public administration. Let¹s be clear the Commissioners have a political responsibility HUMPHRYS: Right, so they will be the government then? PRODI: Yeah, they will be the government for the power that is given to Europe, that is not total and initial power as you know, but we have to be clear also, a very clear statement that especially in Britain is very important, this does not mean to bring to Brussels everything. It means to bring to Brussels fewer things and let all other decision go closer and closer to people. I am firmly believing that you don¹t need homogeneity in Europe you need to have some common decision big decision. HUMPHRYS: But those are the big decisions. PRODI: Oh, the decision of Trade, Economy of Trade, Citizens condition, you know what we saw Human Rights Justice Peace you know and also a common Foreign policy because otherwise in the future war you have no voice. HUMPHRYS: And a common Foreign policy includes common defence policy? PRODI: Well, I don¹t think there is a foreign policy without defence you know, I think that for many many aspects they are the same thing. But you know, we have already taken decision of a real change of of the nature of the state you know, with the common Currency. HUMPHRYS: And in the same way that individual member states gave up a certain amount of sovereignty to create a common currency, the same would apply in other areas such as the defence so we would have ultimately a common army, for instance, a European army? PRODI: A common Army for the country who accept and want and decide to be the common Army, you know I I I think that if a state has chosen neutrality and not to give in any military ŠŠ.. you know I I don¹t think that we obliged to say that but for Š HUMPHRYS: So the European Union should have its army? PRODI: Yeah its Army you know but does not necessarily is comprehensive of all the countries you know, maybe you have a country without Army HUMPHRYS: Sure, but if a country has an Army, then you believe.. PRODI: And accepts to put the defence in common yes. HUMPHRYS: Because there is as you know some concern in the United Kingdom for instance that British soldiers should be called to fight by a European commander and under a European flag. I mean you think that ultimately that sort of thing is inevitable. PRODI: You know yeah, for a country that accept that is an event inevitable, otherwise you know we spend now two thirds of the defence budget of United States and in terms of you know you know potential of defence is maybe one tenth of the United States. And.. HUMPHRYS: So it would be pretty meaningless without Britain being a part of it. PRODI: Yeah, but you know without taking sovereign decision, we have already started, when you, when you see that there are mergers between Italian Military firms military, firms and British one and you have already four cases in which you merge together helicopter factories you know well, this is a step to have something in common in defence you know. And so when we are, while we are talking we are also acting in the direction of putting the resources together you know and the other step will be also you know putting troops together, that¹s you arrive to a common Army only very very late of course you need years and years and years, but.. HUMPHRYS: But it is the logical next stage? PRODI: It is the logical next step. You know unless you want you..the alternative, well you will be marginalised in the new world history. You will ask to somebody else to defend you, this is the only alternative. I don¹t think that this is part of the history of Europe HUMPHRYS: So yes, so in other words if a country like Britain were toŠ if Britain were to say we don¹t want any part of this, we want to keep our soldiers for our own purposes, we would ultimately be marginalised? PRODI: Well unless you are so strong, strong, strong not to be marginalised and I think that the dimension of a single European country, Germany or Britain or France, it¹s not enough. HUMPHRYS: Can we talk about the Balkans? Are you worried at the way the War is going now and that what appears to be the division between some countries - the United States notably -reluctance to put in ground forces, Britain apparently prepared to do so, Mr Blair is concerned about this, where do your worries lie? PRODI: Well a decision like sending ground forces of course needs a general approval. So as far as we can say now it¹s not easy to forecast, to to to to to think that ground troops will be sent at least in the short period in the Balkans, you know. And, so, this is a moment in which ah, is not easy to have an idea of how it will end. But in spite of that there is growing set of conversation talks. HUMPHRYS: You think a diplomatic solution is looking likely? PRODI: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think there will be the possibility of a solution you know. And now there is this sense of tension you know, if I¹mŠI don¹t see.. optimist.. I am less pessimist than a week ago you know HUMPHRYS: What em, PRODI: Talking with all the protagonists of all that is this happening you know and of course on my side I am not part of this solution of course but I think that a lot of the responsibility for the reconstruction and the settlement of the area will be on the European shoulders. HUMPHRYS: And what you want is - you¹ve called for a conference on the Balkans, now what most of those countries want is early membership of the European Union. Is that on offer, should it be on offer? PRODI: No let¹s be clear , because ah, we decided to have new countries in, this process will go on, and I don¹t think that the Balkan will be brought into Europe before other countries but, but it¹s important to offer them a political settlement and an economic settlement that can bring hope to the young men that they will be in peace. And the message to the other countries that applied for the European Union is clear that there is no change in that order, because we have to be loyal and clear. But if we don¹t offer, if we don¹t offer the Balkans the idea of a definite settlement in which they may live in a huge market preserving their identity you know and the national situation in a situation of parity with a European guarantee, we shall never have peace in the Balkans. HUMPHRYS: The Euro was obviously a hugely important step in European integration, Britain remains outside the Euro. You have said that either the Euro will fall or Britain will be in. Now which of those two possibilities do you think is the most likely? PRODI: Well in this case I don¹t speak as the President of the Commission, but you know as an individual I think the second. Britain will come in because otherwiseŠ the Euro is working with the financial market very strongly. In a few months we had so big change in the market, many of them organised by American firms you know because they know how to handle a big market. And I think that to be out of that in the long run will be a problem for UK. I don¹t say that it¹s a problem for tomorrow you know, but to be out of the Euro for such a fantastic financial market as is the City of London will be a problem. HUMPHRYS: But as you well know many people in Britain say we are very strong now precisely because we are not in the Euro and we can go our own way, we can set our own interest rates and so on. PRODI: Yeah, till the moment in which somebody else will not organise a competitive market, you know it¹s not easy, cannot be done in one day because the skill and the people that is working in the City is fantastic you know, is a big resource but in the long run you can¹t be out of the market and be leader of the market. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but you see when they look at it at the moment they see a Euro that is much weaker than it was when it was launched, they see high levels of unemployment in the Euro zoneŠ PRODI: Yeah, well but this is a short term fluctuation and I don¹t think the Euro will weak in the future. Concerning unemployment you are completely right but sorry but this was also before the building up of Euro you know the construction of Europe. We have a structure that is depending upon many other reasons. But I¹m convinced that now will be much easier to fight unemployment. Because you can¹t fight unemployment if you don¹t defeat inflation. And you have, have got a long horizon of stability. HUMPHRYS: The people now expect the new Commission under your presidency to be absolutely free of sleaze, any taint of wrong-doing. Many allegations have been made against yourself, and I know you say they have been cleared within this country but is it not going to be difficult to say, in the words of Jacques Santer, that from now on you are whiter than white? PRODI: Look I put everything on the table, everything has been clarified you know everybody can control and check you know but, of course there is no hint of any allegation of any that can be put on on my self. HUMPHRYS: So to use your own expression you are totally free of any blemish. You would welcome, when Parliament comes to ratify your appointment you would welcome any investigation, co-operate with any investigation by the parliament? PRODI: I have already done you know. But you know there is no evidence of any type of any mismanagement, of any personal interest you know and also if you, of course if you are hinting to what was written in a British newspaper. HUMPHRYS: There¹s been a great deal written in the British newspapers. PRODI: Yeah they came here, they, there was no point in which they found new things that was not analysed by a judge and they have ah, had conversation with, you know, what for years and years were em, let¹s say, the persons who were against me you know politically ah, in terms of you know personal ah, animosity. But in spite of that there is nothing new. But anyway I am very open to everything you know, but I think that, I¹ve been happy that this was in the beginning of it, so you know, so it¹s a new start with an open book. Of course every man who had such a big responsibility as a head of the government and public company sector for years and years, you know, how can you be free of accusation. The problem is to be clear in opening the book and having a judgement that is definite and clear - this was my case. HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Romano Prodi in Rome a few days ago. ŠoooOoooŠ 4 FoLdEd