................................................................................ ON THE RECORD JOHN PRESCOTT INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 21.9.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good Morning Mr Prescott/Good Afternoon. JOHN PRESCOTT MP: Good Morning John, or Afternoon whichever way you put it. HUMPHRYS: Exactly. Before we talk about the Constitution though, can we talk about money? About these pay rises that the Cabinet is supposed to be getting - a big row in the papers this morning a lot of coverage which- PRESCOTT: I certainly didn't recognise that meeting from what the papers say but they do like this kind of drama. HUMPHRYS: Let's just tell the audience what the meeting was about first before you tell them it didn't happen. It says there was a big row in the Cabinet because Mr Blair didn't want to take the pay rise, Mr Brown didn't want to take the pay rise, others said they did - we're talking about sixteen thousand pounds here. Apparently this had been sorted out but the Cabinet decided otherwise and now you've been asked at this stage to sort it out yourself. Is this true? PRESCOTT: No this was a discussion that took place in the Cabinet on Thursday and certainly wasn't heated at all. Everybody recognises the great difficulties in the public pay area and setting examples and the Prime Minister made it clear exactly how he felt about it. I was asked to talk to the members of the Cabinet - and that's public news - and I discussed with them and we looked at the difficulties about implementing these kind of policies and we needed to look at the long term consequences of this -
and indeed that's what I'm looking at. But we're all united about this, it was a discussion that took no more than five minutes and frankly there was no heat whatsoever. HUMPHRYS: So if you're all united, what is the position? Are you going to take the pay rises, give it to charity or what? PRESCOTT: We've made clear that we follow what the Prime Minister has said - that we will make our contribution not to accept any rises. But there are a lot- HUMPHRYS: All of you? PRESCOTT: Well yes everybody. There's no doubt about that but there are a lot of implications that flow from that about Pensions, about the-when the Parliament comes to review again in two years' time. Is it a discussion on our deemed payment or what we're actually supposed to be getting. There are complications in these matters and I've been asked to talk to the colleagues about this and take a long term view about it and that's what I intend to do. HUMPHRYS: Because I got the impression this morning from Jack Cunningham on GMTV that you were going to go around every Member of the Cabinet and say: look do you want to take a pay rise? Do you want to give it to charity? Do you want it just to go back to the Exchequer? Is that the case? PRESCOTT: No, I think the matter of the charity argument is that everybody's agreed that this is our money. What we're saying is we're not taking it. And, in those circumstances, I think, we might have some say about what should be done with it. These matters were discussed and Jack's already made clear that was an issue. I'm discussing with Members of the Cabinet about that; the general thrust of the policy and the agreeement of all the Cabinet is accepted. HUMPHRYS: So that has yet to be resolved then? Whether you take it and then give it to charity or whether you simply don't take it at all? PRESCOTT: Well there was an argument about that -- I'm not certain it's an argument, it's a discussion -- indeed I put into this the argument about the money that's there is actually paid over because Parliament has agreed that and voted on it and it gets paid to the Departments. Now there may well be a point of view that perhaps that could go to some form of charity. It's a judgment we can make, it doesn't effect the thrust of the policy that has been put forward and endorsed by the Prime Minister and my job is to talketo them and find that out. HUMPHRYS: But the Prime Minister's view is that he wasn't going to take it - he made that very clear? PRESCOTT: Yes he made it clear but there are implications that flow from that. Is it this year, next year, years following? HUMPHRYS: So, what, he hadn't thought it through when he said that? PRESCOTT: No, he made it clear in regard to the next pay round didn't he? The two year programme that we had about public expenditure, there's some certainly difficult decisions to come. What he made clear was that he was not prepared to take it and that's now been endorsed for all the rest of the Cabinet. HUMPHRYS: So what happens now then? PRESCOTT: There are matters that flow from that and I've been asked to actually discuss with Cabinet members and the instruction of the Prime Minister I might say. But not only myself, it's involving one or two others and these things have to be thought through. HUMPHRYS: So what happens to the money next month then, when you're meant to get your pay rises? PRESCOTT: We'll be getting the actual - we'd already agreed that last May - which applies to April next year, that we don't-we didn't take the increase and that's already been deducted. What you're talking about is a period of payment that starts from April next year, there's two lots involved here. The first decision was taken last May until April of next year and what the Prime Minister was talking about was the decision that was going to be taken next April, effecting the second year. HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's move on to the vote in Wales now - a miniscule wafer-thin majority, and only a quarter of the people of Wales actually said: yes, we want this Assembly. Doesn't that mean you've now got to rethink your plans? PRESCOTT: Well, no, but what it does mean is that the majority actually voted for Labour's proposals. We actually made these proposals on May the first and we said we'd give the people of Wales the choice. They've made a choice - we've got more than fifty per cent of the vote and we will implement our programme. Now, this was a debate, a referendum as to whether we should go ahead with decentralisation in Wales and a Welsh Assembly. We will now put the legislation to Parliament and it will be examined, obviously, by all those concerned in Parliament. HUMPHRYS: A majority. But the slenderest possible majority and a very small number of people voting. You used to talk about the clear and settled will of the people having to be established before you settled down the devolution road - well you haven't got that, have you? PRESCOTT: The clear and settled will is about a majority and that's what it is. HUMPHRYS: A quarter of the people of Wales. PRESCOTT: But wait a minute - yes, a majority has actually voted in that vote when everybody could have voted. Now, if you look at the General Election, we've had Governments with thirty odd per cent of the vote making major changes to our Constitution. The Tories in eighteen years completely centralised most of our Government programme and the role of Local Authorities was very much weakened in that process. So, to that extent, they came out with something less than forty per cent of the vote. So, I'm quite happy to accept a majority. If it would have been half a per cent less, John, we would have lost it. HUMPHRYS: But I mean you used to attack the Government for exactly the kind of thing that you're now proposing to do. You used to say look you don't have a mandate to do these things! PRESCOTT: Now we have fifty per cent. Nobody's ever taken the totality of the vote - it's the people that vote for it. It's over fifty per cent - that's what's governed our politics. If you want to change it - fine. I hear you discussing all this business about Proportional Representation etc., - that's a matter for debate in the future - but, at the moment, it's a clear majority is required. That's what the terms were at this Election and that is what we've got. We've got it in Scotland, more emphatically than we did in Wales but we got fifty per cent in Wales. So, we have now agreed as the central aim of our policy to continue to decentralise with a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly and indeed the London Bill that is going to be coming for the London Region. HUMPHRYS: So, no second thoughts at all. You're going to push the Wales Bill through this Autumn as quickly as possible. PRESCOTT: How can we do anything else? If we've put the issue to the Electorate and fifty per cent of it - over fifty per cent of it - has said: we want you go go ahead with this Bill - of course, that's the democratic obligation. We will now go ahead with our Bill but of course a White Bill is going to be thoroughly discussed in Parliament - this Bill. And, I'm sure, there are implications that are designed on the White Paper that we are producing to that extent we have every right to go ahead and we will do. HUMPHRYS: But, I thought I had heard Ron Davies in Wales and Mr Blair himself saying: we're going to listen to what people have said here. PRESCOTT: Well, we've listened and- HUMPHRYS: Well, not a lot of listening. You've listened and then, you've said: that's it. PRESCOTT: But, John, if you're not satisfied with the majority - fine. You're entitled to have that view. We have listened to what the people of Wales said and I'm right to correctly interpret that the majority have, actually, voted for our proposals. We're delighted about that. And, as you know - because you take an active interest in Wales - and, indeed, I do - we're both Wales/Welsh. From different parts of Wales. I'm from the North and I believe you're from the South and in those arguments that have taken place over the years, the last referendum there was something like four to one against. Now, that's one heck of a turnaround to get a fifty per cent majority and the arguments and discussions will continue but instead of about whether we shall have it, or not have it, it will be about what we do with the Welsh Assembly and how we begin to redistribute the power in the way that's suggested under these proposals. HUMPHRYS: Right. But, as far as the Bill is concerned, you're going to push it through. We're going to see the same kind of thing we saw with the Referendum Bills. You're going to have a guillotine discussion or are you going to say: we are mildly concerned - at the very least - about the smallness of the majority, therefore, we will allow full discussion on the floor of the House of Commons, even if it takes a goodly time. PRESCOTT: Well, that's for the Business Managers to sort out - right. HUMPHRYS: Well, what's your view? PRESCOTT: Well, wait a minute. We will be going through with the proposal. We, actually, put it to the Electorate on May the first - an overwhelming endorsement from it, including the English regions as well. We now then do a separate referendum, as we've done in Scotland, done in Wales and are about to do it in London and we will go ahead with our proposals. As to how it's dealt with in Parliament that's up to the Business Managers. But, I think, we've got an overwhelming mandate - both in a General Election and, indeed, now, in the Referendum - so, we are entitled to put our vote to Parliament. HUMPHRYS: So, what did Mr Blair mean, though, when he talked about listening to the people of Wales because, as you say, great chunks of people didn't vote for it at all? PRESCOTT: Are you suggesting, then, that if he gets- HUMPHRYS: I'm asking you what he meant when he said 'listening' - that's all. PRESCOTT: I'm just trying to get at what you're suggesting, since you keep asking the question a number of times. Are you suggesting then that we should now reject the possibility of putting a referendum because we've got over fifty per cent of the vote, though it was narrowly just over fifty per cent. That isn't the suggestion, and I think people would be outraged if we'd put it to the people and we'd said, "We give you the voice, we trust in the voice of Wales". And the majority have voted for a Welsh Assembly, and we are right and quite proper to go ahead and put that forward now to parliament. HUMPHRYS: No, no, well, since you ask me I am intrigued by what Mr Blair meant when he said, "We've got to listen to the people of Wales", as a result of what they did, because as you know, you say you come from - you say you come from Prestatyn don't you, I come from Cardiff. Nobody in Cardiff - they threw it out - threw it out completely. Well now, this is the capital city. Some people in Cardiff may well say: Look, alright you've got your majority but by golly it was - if one mining village had gone the other way you wouldn't have got it. Now, Okay, you've got it, we accept that you've got it, but, but as a result of that Mr Blair said, and certainly Ron Davies said, "We will now listen, and we'll think out this a little bit, so all I was asking you was whether ... PRESCOTT: ... that quite properly there. In fact the listening process will go on both in Scotland and Wales in that we've had the referendum, but when we come to the details of the discussion we've set up our framework, and the bill will reflect that and the White Papers that are involved here, and then when we do that we will of course enter into that debate, I'm sure that we will take into account in that sense, we will be persuaded by the kind of votes that are involved, but it won't put us off about putting the legislation before parliament, but in the process of that debate we will of course listen to the arguments that go on, because the argument now is not about whether you do it or don't do it, the argument is now about whether you're satisfied or whether your fears that you expressed in that referenda could be satisfied in a different way. In that sense I'm sure Ron Davies will be conducting that discussion and view, and I think he would have been doing that if the vote had been fifty or sixty per cent. It's listening to the people during the process of legislation. HUMPHRYS: Right, but when you say you will let the business managers decide how it goes through the House of Commons, presumably they decided last time under some instructions from the leaders of the Party that there should be a guillotine. Well, now this time around, bearing in mind that you're in this listening mode that you describe, aren't you going to say to the business managers: Look, there is some concern about this, so let's make sure we don't upset anybody, let's make sure we recognise the concerns by having the fullest possible debate on the floor of the House of Commons without any guillotine... PRESCOTT: There will be no doubt that we will be having the fullest possible debate.. HUMPHRYS: Without the guillotine, PRESCOTT: .. but you know in our process, if you go back to the last time that we had legislation before the House of Commons half a dozen people can decide that what they're going to do, it doesn't matter what the people of Wales have said, they can actually obstruct a bill. But we will want the full parliamentary discussion. If I remember rightly it was the Tory government that brought even guillotines in in the Euro-bill which was much more fundamental than this, but we don't want to get into that, and that's why Tony Blair uniquely in a way has involved himself in the discussions with other political parties that are agreed on this particularly the Liberals to see if we can get common agreement. He does want consensus, he does want common agreement, and he wants proper discussion, and that's what we'll be aiming for. HUMPHRYS: So let's move beyond these referendums then, because they were part of a much wider plan which included elected regional government in England as well. Hasn't that rather been blown out of the water by what happened in Wales ? PRESCOTT: No, not at all. The whole process of decentralisation is to bring decision nearer to people and if I live in Yorkshire as I do at the moment to represent a Yorkshire seat, I've got a population in Yorkshire or something like five million, that's bigger than Wales, but about the same region say of, a little less than Scotland, and they want to have some say about those decisions, and we've committed ourselves to decentralisation, manifests itself in a parliament in Scotland, an assembly in Wales, and some form of regional government structure that the people want in the English regions. Now I think that's what they want, and if you look at the - and we will consult them about that, and if you look at the London Bill that we have in the legislation at the moment, that Londoners do not have a regional voice, they do want to have one in our view, and I think one of the polls conducted by the BBC showed that eighty-three per cent of the Londoners wanted that, and something like eighty-odd per cent wanted a directly elected mayor. Now in those circumstances we have the bill and the referendum bill ready to come before parliament. We'll conduct that referendum on May the seventh at the same time as the local elections, and we'll get the first indication about whether Londoners want a London voice, and I believe Mr Hague actually supports that. I've always found it difficult to understand why he denied it for the Welsh and the Scots but always thought it was alright for the Londoners. HUMPHRYS: Are you therefore committed - and the word is committed - to elected regional government in England? PRESCOTT: We consult the people about that. I've always had a view John. You know me, I've always been for a regional government. I've argued that for ten or fifteen years, but we have said that we would consult the people in the regions. Now in London we're going ahead immediately to give them a referendum on May the seventh, then we'll have a White Paper and a bill, and we hope to have this authority established by the year two-thousand. Now, in those circumstances on the English regions because of the time-table involved in it, we've started with the English development agencies. Each region will have that, I've managed to get that into the Queen's speeches. HUMPHRYS: They're not elected though, let's be clear about that, they're not elected. PRESCOTT: I'm coming to that John, it's a fair point. It's a body that's set up, therefore we want to make it accountable in the regions. If you want to move to kind of some form of regional government in the English regions it would have to based on local government. We have a unitary base system, we don't have a regional structure. That would take you a couple of years to go through the consultation of local authority changes if that's what we're embarked upon. Now, it's not possible to get that kind of elected procedures done this side in the first length of this parliament. HUMPHRYS: Ah, not at all? Not well. PRESCOTT: I mean, we see how the time-table will go. You're already asking me what will be the time-table in discussions and guillotines in the early stages. We would wait to see what develops, but we've gone ahead with the development agencies, because that's only catching up with Scotland and Wales who've had them for over twenty odd years, and we want to develop the economy, the English regions certainly want the development agencies. Our consultation done under Dick Caburn has shown that overwhelming demand by business and the regions for the development agencies, and what we've got to do is to build in that some kind of democratic accountability to begin with, and we're trying to do that in an indirect way with many of the bodies that are available, bringing them together with local authorities and businesses to have some kind of accountability. HUMPHRYS: Well, that's an interesting answer because one of your policy documents in September talked about "as rapidly as pososible". PRESCOTT: Well, that's - there's no doubt where I stand, but don't forget about it. We said we would consult the people. That requires us then to go into a mode first of all to get an indication that they
want the referendum, then the possibility of the referendum, and then if that was to lead to a change in our structure, the regional chambers or the possibility of regional government, that takes a little longer, but the chambers which are something different in that sense, giving some legitimacy to the various groups that have come together like the North-west partnership in the North-west or the Northern Assembly in the North-east where these bodies hae come voluntarily together to give them some proper accountability in the interim period. It may well be that's all what the English regions want. I hope myself it will move towards some kind of regional government concept, but you have to consult the people, and that's the procedures we're set upon. HUMPHRYS: And many of your colleagues appear to bet getting a little bit scratchy, a little bit edgy about that because they consulted the people in Wales - we saw what happened there, and that is after all a nation. Consulting the people of England, even somewhere lkike Yorkshire might be a bit of a dodgy business now - we saw did we not a little bit of back tracking a few days ago, the day after the Welsh .... Well government spokesmen being quoted in the papers as saying, "People think we are committed. That is not correct". PRESCOTT: Well I can't deal with government spokesmen, if you tell me who it is... HUMPHRYS: Who can then if you can't. PRESCOTT: Well, you're talking about..you just throw in a name, I don't know, journalists write up all these sorts of things up about what some government spokesman said or senior source. I can't handle that but I am the one responsible for the policy and therefore I'm entitled to give what my interpretation is of it and I've given you what it is. And indeed that will be the process we're embarked upon to carry out and I think when we have the London Referendum which is on May 7th, I think we'll get a considerable support for it and I think that will answer those you are doubting Thomases. But it may change between the north east the north west or Cornwall but we will start the process of consultation, we will establish the economic development agencies in the regions which they won and that was one of the first steps towards the kind of steps that have been taken in Scotland and Wales. They started with economic development agencies and then you begin to see a regional dimension. Europe has authorities of a regional dimension of approximately five million population. We haven't got that, we're the only country in Europe that doesn't have that and I think when people begin to see this developing this way they'll become more convinced of it, see its relevance and hopefully support it. HUMPHRYS: So the message from the Deputy Prime Minister to everybody, including government spokesmen, is if they want it, regional government, elected regional government - which I John Prescott most certainly do - then they can have it sooner rather than later, ideally before the end of this parliament. HUMPHRYS: Well I don't think you can get that before the end of this parliament, regional government, what we embarked to do is to have regional chambers and we have spelt them out in our manifesto what that means. To make the first step towards some accountability on the regional level. But in London we're going much further, we are establishing a regional body concept of a population of five or six million for London. Now this debate has started John. I don't know where it will eventually lead but I'm quite sure about this: we want to make decisions, put decisions nearer to people who are affected by them, it's called de-centralisation and our programme for Scotland and Wales has now been confirmed in the referendums. I believe it will eventually be confirmed in the English regions. But nobody can doubt a momentum has started, democratic accountability is what people are demanding, not the quangoracy that the Tories brought in which control more resources now than elected members. I think that's what the people will want and we will argue that case and it's my intention to continue to argue as hard as possible. HUMPHRYS: Deputy Prime Minister, many thanks. PRESCOTT: Thank you. ...oooOooo...