................................................................................ ON THE RECORD PADDY ASHDOWN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 22.11.98
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the Liberal Democrats. Paddy Ashdown has been more successful than any other Liberal leader since Lloyd George: forty-six seats in the House of Commons and, on the face of it, real influence with the government. They even sit on a joint cabinet committee. And all of that raised hopes to new heights that the ultimate prize of proportional representation was, at last, in their sights. But in the last few days there's been a serious setback. The Bill to change the voting system for the European elections was thrown out by the House of Lords and it's now possible that it won't happen in time. Mr Ashdown is at his home in Yeovil. Good afternoon Mr Ashdown. PADDY ASHDOWN: Good afternoon John. Nice to be with you. HUMPHRYS: Thank you. What assurances has Tony Blair given you that he is going to get this Bill through in time so that we will have a different, what you would call a fairer system of voting for the European Elections? ASHDOWN: None and I haven't asked him for any. HUMPHRYS: Why not? ASHDOWN: Because this is a matter for the Conservatives not for the Prime Minister, as we well know. The Parliament Act is now being enacted and let me just say to start with John, that this is nothing to do with Paddy Ashdown. It's nothing to do with closed lists and open lists. It's nothing to do even with Proportional Representation. What this is to do with is the Conservative leadership, the schoolboy mullahs of the Conservative Right who have now taken over the Conservative Party, using the hereditary peers in order to overturn the democratic wishes of the British people for a fair voting system at the European Election, for which two thirds of them voted last year. And this is a constitutional impropriety being taken to the level of an outrage that the hereditary peers of this country should now seek to overturn the democratic wishes of the British people and ultimately that is the issue. It must not be allowed to happen. I personally believe the Conservatives will pay a very very heavy price indeed if they do try to make this happen in the ballot box next year. I see the Observer is saying today that if there is substantial tactical voting and I wouldn't be surprised if that took place in order to punish the Tories for this undemocratic act, then all but two of the Conservative European seats will be lost and the Liberal Democrats and Labour will clean up and that's not what I want to happen. But the issue here is about who takes the decisions in this country: is it the voters in the ballot box or is it the hereditary peers being used as a weapon by the, in my view, extremely ill-advised actions of the leader of the Conservative Party and a few of his small Right-wing coterie who are now advising him. HUMPHRYS: You say it's nothing to do with closed lists, it's everything to do with closed lists- ASHDOWN: It's not- HUMPHRYS: Well, if Tony Blair said, well look, alright, we've taken on board what the House of Lords have said, and indeed what a lot of other people, apart from Conservatives in the House of Lords have said, and we will now have a system of open lists. It would sail through the House of Lords, as you well know, your own members would be delighted, you I no doubt would be delighted as well, and therefore you would get your Proportional Representation that you want. It isn't Proportional Representation that the House of Lords has blocked, it is the closed list system. ASHDOWN: No, what this is about is democracy. Proportional Representation is a second-tier issue. It's about whether the wishes of the British people in the ballot box will make decisions or whether hereditary peers will do so. Now let me prove to you that this is not about open and closed lists. If this was about open lists, the Conservatives would have voted in committee stage, when the Bill could have been changed, in favour of the proposition for open lists put forward at that time. They did not do so, they refused to vote for this when it could have been changed, indeed their spokesman in the House of Lords described the very thing that they are now going to war over as manifestly unfair. Now this is a piece of rank hypocrisy on the part of the Conservative Party. Its intention is to use the hereditary peers to overturn the wishes of the British people and in my view the person who will really suffer from this is probably the British people who voted for an electoral system if it goes through, and almost certainly Mr William Hague, whose party is now manifestly divided against them. The wise heads in the House of Lords against what I have called the schoolboy mullahs of the Conservative Right who have now taken over this party and are in my view engaged in an act of near-suicide. I think it's stupid for the Conservatives, I think it is extremely dangerous for democracy in this country and at the very least it is an example of opportunism and double standards on the part of the Conservative Party and on the part of Mr Hague which is quite simply breathtaking. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but there is no question is there, they have based their opposition, whatever you may believe about the past, they have said, time and time again, what we are opposed to here is closed lists- ASHDOWN: Then why didn't they support that in the House of Commons. HUMPHRYS: Well let's forget about what they did in the House of Commons the last time around and try and move it forward. I'm trying to move it forward. You know there's not a lot of point- ASHDOWN: It's not moving it forward. HUMPHRYS: Of course it is. ASHDOWN: I'm showing you quite clearly that this is a piece of breathtaking hypocrisy. When they could have changed the Bill rather than destroyed it, which is what they are now trying to do, in committee stage not only in the House of Commons but also in the House of Lords, when they could have voted for open lists and with us and changed the Bill, not destroyed it, they refused to use their votes. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but you changed your position as well and I'm not intending, I was not intending to go into that in any great detail because I'm trying to move it forward, but you changed your position, you did not want a system of closed lists. ASHDOWN: Yes, but it's a question of whether or not.... We proposed closed ...open lists, it didn't get through. What's at question now is whether the Bill as a whole gets through and that's why it's not about open or closed lists. It's about whether or not the Bill gets through, whether or not the wishes of the British people... HUMPHRYS: Yeah but it's a bit more than that isn't it? I mean you own man Bob Maclennan.... well your own man Bob Maclennan said that the argument for open lists is overwhelming and yet you then change your position and support closed lists. ASHDOWN: John, John, this is hardly a new proposition in the House of Commons. If in the House of Commons in the process of the committee stage and amendments put forward which falls it means that when the whole Bill comes back you'll have to make your decision as to whether the whole Bill is worth supporting with your amendment having fallen and we believe it is. We believe that not to do that would be quite simply to overturn the wishes of the British people for a fair voting system. Now the Conservatives are engaged in a piece of idiocy in my view in a piece... you remember that the last time this happened they were referred to by Lloyd George as 'Balfour's poodle'. Well it seems to me that they're now Mr Hague's instrument for doing exactly what was done before. The real issue here is the Peers against the people, that's the key issue. It's not about open and closed lists it's about whether or not the people of this country have a right to insure that when they vote for something in the ballot box this is not overturned by the Conservative Party - in my view with great folly. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but...... ASHDOWN: ...using the hereditary peers to do that..... HUMPHRYS: Yeah but... the mistake in that answer, if I may say so , is that that we have never voted. Nobody here. We didn't vote for the Labour Party because they promised to give us closed lists. They didn't say they were going to give us closed lists in their manifesto. They said they were going to give us a form of proportional representation. Now we're down to this question of closed lists and what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to.... I'm trying to be helpful here for once in my life. I'm trying to move it forward a bit and say, 'look why.... if you went back to Tony Blair now and said look clearly we've got a problem here. Let me try to persuade you Prime Minister to accept that there ought to be open as opposed to closed lists. What I'm saying to you is - it would then sail through and it's a bit odd to some people perhaps that you haven't done that'. ASHDOWN: Two things happen. No, we've argued that case in the House of Commons. Two things happen: One, this is the Labour Party's policy and they have a majority four times larger than my parliamentary party. And secondly, you're allowing the hereditary peers to overturn the views of the House of Commons at this stage is not in my view a constitutionally correct practice and, you know, I may disagree in the detail of this Bill but I do not disagree with its fundamentals and I understand that it is putting into practice the sovereign wishes of two thirds of the British people. Now I am not in favour of allowing the hereditary peers to overturn the wishes of the elected chamber in Westminster and that, it seems to me, is a larger principle which needs to be defended and secondly, I'm not in favour of allowing them to overturn the wishes of the British people. This is the peers against the people. HUMPHRYS: Come back to that question of the wishes of the British people. I can't as I say remember anybody voting for closed lists but put that aside for one moment. Now that you know what the situation is we've got to come back, the Bill is going to come back again in the new parliamentary term, government can then institute the Parliament Act. Now if the Tories refuse to co-operate as they have said, as Mr Hague has said they will, what are you going to do aboout that? One of your lieutenants Simon Hughes, a very senior Liberal Democrat MP said this morning that you should sit throughout Christmas and the New Year, take a day off for Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and the rest of it the Lords will be forced to sit there and argue this thing through so that they cannot delay it indefinitely and therefore miss the opportunity to have the different system in time for spring. ASHDOWN I very much hope and believe that the will of the Commons and the will of the British people will prevail. HUMPHRYS: Is that a good way to do it? ASHDOWN: .. and I think there are mechanisms for doing that, one of which is to put the Bill down early and then to drive it through by using the House of Lords and the Commons and making sure that it happens, HUMPHRYS: And making them sit through Christmas and New Year. ASHDOWN: John, let's not get into the detail.... HUMPHRYS: Well, it was your man who suggested it. ASHDOWN: Well, that would be interesting. Simon Hughes is entitled to speculate with ideas of his own. But what I'm clear about is that this thing now has to be driven through, and I believe it will, and I think that the person who will end up with egg on their face is Mr Hague for extremely foolish and rather immature action in this matter, in which incidentally his own party is catastrophically divided and I think there is every prospect that this Bill will get through and we will have the wishes of the British people honoured by having a proportional system at the European elections. HUMPHRYS: I don't see why you can afford to be so optimistic unless you do this sort of thing that Simon Hughes suggested this morning. ASHDOWN: Look, I'm not going to get in here John - Simon can do it, but forgive me I'm not going to - into what are the constitutional procedures of the House of Commons. What I know is that this Bill can be delivered and I believe it can be and will be delivered, and I think the chances are strongly in favour. If the Conservatives want to play a rearguard action in order to destroy this, then they can do that, no question about that, and it just possible that they could destroy the Bill. You want my judgement - it's not going to happen. HUMPHRYS: But if it does people are entitled to say: What on earth did Paddy Ashdown get out of all this co-operation with the Labour Government? They're entitled to say that aren't they. He gave a lot, what did he get in return? ASHDOWN: So what are we suggesting, that our relations with the Labour Government which open a new style of politics should be damaged because of the idiocy of the Conservatives? HUMPHRYS: No. On the contrary because - because Tony Blair has not given you what you want. He's talked about proportional - I'm sure he has - he hasn't even given you the promise .... guaranteed you the referendum that you want before the next election. There are so many things that you went in there hoping, intending to get, telling your supporters that you were going to get - it maybe that you haven't got any of it by the time it comes round to the next election. ASHDOWN: Interesting speculation John. Ain't gonna happen. HUMPHRYS: You can't be sure. ASHDOWN: Look, you know, when I was in the Royal Marines I used to have a young marine in any tactical situation, he used to rush up to me and say, "But sir, but sir, what happens if a tank comes along?" HUMPHRYS: The tank would have crushed you. ASHDOWN: Hang on, the tank hasn't arrived. And I used to say to him ,"Calm down. When a tank comes along I'll tell what we'll do. For the moment let's just concentrate on the people in front us who are shooting at us". Now that's where we are. You can speculate, you can
hypothecate about what might and what might not happen. I'm interested in one thing, and that is making sure that a constitutional principle is upheld, that the wishes of the British people is not frustrated by the hereditary peers in the hands of the Conservative Party, foolishly allowing themselves to be used to do that, and that this Bill gets through. I believe that can be done. We can all speculate till the cows come home about what will happen if it doesn't, but that'll wait till then. The tank has not yet arrived. HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe not, but it maybe is on the horizon. If you don't get this, you're going to have to resign as the leader aren't you? ASDOWN: Rubbish. HUMPHRYS: You're under pressure aren't you? ASHDOWN: I said rubbish. HUMPHRYS: Mm. I heard what you said, but have you been reading and listening to what everybody's been saying? ASHDOWN: John, I have some things I want to do with the Liberal Democrats. I've done a lot with them as you were kind enough to say earlier on. I have some other things I want to do with the Liberal Democrats, and when I've done them I'll then stand down. My advice from those who are over-eager to try on the crown is very simple - don't hold your breath. HUMPHRYS: Paddy Ashdown, thank you very much indeed. May there be no tanks on your lawn. ....oooOooo....