................................................................................ ON THE RECORD NORTHERN IRELAND INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 17.5.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. On Friday the people of Ireland vote on the peace agreement. It's expected they will give their approval, but will most UNIONISTS vote "yes" and if they don't what then? I'll be talking to three leading unionists with three different views after the News read by CHRIS LOWE. NEWS HUMPHRYS: There seems little doubt that when the people of Ireland, North and South, vote in their referendums on Friday they will say yes. But it's the size of the majority that matters and, in particular, whether both Nationalists and Unionists give it their approval. The Unionists are deeply split. The DUP, Ian Paisley's party, is totally opposed. The leader of the Ulster Unionists, the biggest party, signed the agreement but there are many in his party - including some very senior figures - who say he should not have. Some of them see it as a capitulation to the IRA. Others say it will lead to a united Ireland. So let's discuss that with three leading Unionists who represent three different views: Peter Robinson of the DUP; he will vote No. John Taylor of the Ulster Unionists; he will vote Yes. And Jeffrey Donaldson another Ulster Unionist MP who's always said he doesn't like the agreement but could, in theory, be persuaded. Let me begin, if I may, with you Mr Robinson. Why will you be voting No? PETER ROBINSON: Well there's a number of reasons, chief among them is the fact that it puts terrorists into the government of Northern Ireland, it ensures that we have an assembly which is rigged and undemocratic. But perhaps the key reason is that it sets up an All-Ireland body with executive powers, the capacity to develop and expand. And on the side of all of that, you have the fact that terrorist prisoners are to be released, all of them within two years. The facility is put there to destroy the RUC and on the back of that there is no requirement at all for decommissioning of illegal weapons to take place. Now any one of those reasons would have been sufficient for me to say No to this agreement. Put them all together and it has to be a resounding No from anybody in the Unionist Community who really loves their country. HUMPHRYS: On the other side of all of that is that you do have an agreement and if it works, you will have peace. If you don't have this agreement, if it doesn't work out, you are condemning yourselves, your country, to another twenty/twenty-five years, who knows, of what you've had for the last twenty-five years and that must be unacceptable, surely. ROBINSON: Well you say we have an agreement but what is called an agreement seems to mean different things to all of those who signed it. You say we are going to have peace. I have in front of me the present issue of An Phoblacht, which is the IRA's newspaper, and in it under the heading of 'Prepare For The Next Phase Of The Struggle', they make it abundantly clear that there is difficulties, both physical and political on the road ahead. So there is a physical struggle as far as they are concerned, as well as a political struggle. So we are not going to get peace by saying Yes to this agreement. HUMPHRYS: But if there is a majority on Friday, you as a Democrat will have to accept that, will you not? ROBINSON: If there is a majority saying Yes on Friday then I have to work the terms of the agreement to the extent that it sets up a rigged assembly. An assembly which allows a majority of Unionists to stop any progress down the road towards a united Ireland. And I will do everything that is in my power to frustrate the process towards a united Ireland. HUMPHRYS: You will try to frustrate it but you will work within it, is that what you are saying? ROBINSON: Well what happens after Friday is that there will be an election to a shadow assembly. The shadow assembly doesn't get any powers unless those who are present in the assembly agree the way that they are going to exercise those powers, both within Northern Ireland and on an all-Ireland basis. What I am saying, we will be getting elected to that assembly on the mandate that we would not allow the process to go on towards a united Ireland. HUMPHRYS: If you failed in that and the next step goes ahead, notwithstanding your efforts? ROBINSON: Well, you have got me two steps further on than I am prepared to go already. I am going out to get a massive No vote on Friday the 22nd. I've been up and down this country and I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the Unionist Community are saying No to this agreement for precisely the reasons that I have outlined. They don't want to reward terrorists by putting them into government and releasing them from the jails. They don't want an all-Ireland body that's going to expand and develop towards a united Ireland, and they are going to say No. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Come back to you and some of those points in a minute. But let me go to John Taylor. Powerful arguments there against. Why are you saying vote Yes? JOHN TAYLOR: Scary agruments if they were accurate. But the trouble is with the DUP Paisley campaign which Peter Robinson represents, it is a campaign of half-truths and scaremongering. For example, yesterday in the Belfast Newsletter, we had an advertisement with a photograph of an IRA man wearing a Balaclava, saying is this the kind of person you want in the RUC. Now this is totally dishonest politics. The Prime Minister had made it absolutely clear that no-one with a criminal record will be in Northern Ireland's police force. Insofar as the release of prisoners, I've been shot ten times by the IRA, ten bullets through the head and body. I was nearly dead. I don't take any delight in seeing these kind of people getting out of prison. But I have to accept the truth, the reality of it, that they are all going to be out, bar eighty, within the next two years in any case. That's what happens. There is remission underway. There are already five hundred out on the streets, it's part of life in Northern Ireland. Insofar as having terrorists in the Executive Assembly, the Prime Minister has, late this Thursday, of this week, in Belfast, made it clear that he is going to ensure that there is legislation in parliament to guarantee that terrorists cannot be in the new Executive in Northern Ireland. And it's time some people, like Peter Robinson, began to believe and accept what the Prime Minister says, give him a chance to deliver it. If he doesn't, well then certainly we can reject it. HUMPHRYS: Are you saying that you don't really like it, but this is what's there, this is the best you are going to get? TAYLOR: Yes. I think if you reacted with your heart you probably would say No. But you have got to use your head in politics as well in Northern Ireland, as anywhere else. When I saw the document on the Tuesday it was dreadful altogether. I rejected it absolutely. When I saw the revised on the Good Friday, there were still about eighteen points. I have the original page where I listed them, that I objected to. Some of those have now been answered adequately and here are the real benefits of this document for the greater number of people in Northern Ireland. And it's time that we began to look at the benefits and not just pinprick the things we don't like. We are going to get an assembly in which Unionists should be the majority if they all come out and vote. We are going to have the abolition of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which Peter Robinson used to be against. Now we are going to get it done away with. We are going to get Maryfield and the southern Irish Civil Service in Maryfield, cleared out of Maryfield. We are going to get a North-
South body. Oh yes Peter Robinson mentions the North-South body but how different it is from the one that we have been having for the last ten years, the United Kingdom Government and the Dublin Government have created one hundred North-South bodies in which Unionists have had no input or influence whatsoever. Now, under this agreement, there will be a North-South body in which Unionists will have an input, so much so that we will have a veto over every decision of that North-South body. That's written into the agreement. This gives the people of Northern Ireland power to handle their own affairs and no longer leaves it to English ministers to fly in one day a week to make decisions over our heads. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well, thanks for that. I'll come back to some of those points in a minute as well, but let me go to Jeffrey Donaldson. Mr Donaldson you're in the same party as John Taylor obviously. Why can't you accept what he's said. He's just told us of the large number of things you're going to have and the reasons why some of the things you're worried about you shouldn't be worried about. JEFFREY DONALDSON: Well, can I say I do recognise that there are pluses in this agreement, and what we all have to do is weigh up what we see as the pluses and the minuses and come to our own decision. I respect the decision that John Taylor has come to. He and I were both in the Unionist talks team, and we were there on Good Friday. Both he and I shared many of the concerns about this agreement. I reached the conclusion that I couldn't support it, and John on balance reached the conclusion that he could. I respect his position and I hope that he respects mine. HUMPHRYS: Is your main concern to do with the constitutional arrangement? DONALDSON: My main concerns relate to the kind of issues that Peter Robinson was talking about. First of all I can't support the basis upon, in this agreement, upon which people who represent paramilitary organisations are entitled to become ministers in the government without first - without first - being required to end their campaign of violence for good, and to engage in the decommissioning of their terrorist weapons. And there is nowhere in this agreement that requires them to do that before they are entitled to become ministers in the government. Equally with the release of prisoners, I think that society is entitled to demand of the terrorist organisations that they end their campaign of violence for good and that they engage in decommissioning and dismantling their terrorist machinery, and then when we're getting real peace, then we can think about the release of terrorist prisoners. What's happening here is, the society is required to release the prisoners in the hope that the IRA and the other terrorist organisations might some day end their campaign of violence. Well, I for one am not prepared to support that kind of thing. I think after thirty years of violence, society in Northern Ireland is entitled to expect the terrorists to end their violence, and then we have the benefits of the agreement. HUMPHRYS: But you've been getting a lot of reassurances on all of those points this week from the Prime Minister Tony Blair, who went to Northern Ireland to outline - or let me remind people what he said. Safeguards - and these satisfied your leader David Trimble - safeguards will be enshrined in legislation - that no more prisoners will be released. Nobody can join the executive unless they renounce violence for good, unless they co-operate with the decommissioning body, unless they guarantee there'll be no violence at all even through proxies, parties with whom they're not officially associated, but who are operating with a kind of nod and a wink. Why isn't all of that good enough for you? DONALDSON: John. with all due respect, that's not what the Prime Minister said. The Prime Minister did not say," before they join the executive". He did not say, "before the prisoners are released" HUMPHRYS: I heard him say it this morning? DONALDSON: He did not use the words "before", and with all due respect go back and check the speech that the Prime Minister made. If he'd said that I'd be a lot happier, but he didn't actually say that. What he did say was: Well, of course they can be removed from office by a cross-community vote, which requires actually Nationalists to vote Sinn Fein out of government if they feel in time to honour their commitments, but it doesn't prevent them from taking up office in the first place, and I believe that the mechanism for a cross-community vote is hopelessly inadequate, and the Prime Minister said - all that he said this morning was : Well if it doesn't work we'll think about changing it. Well, quite frankly that isn't good enough. If you're going to allow the representatives of terrorists into the government you must first require them to end their violence and to dismantle their terrorist machines. That is not what the agreement says, that's not what the Prime Minister has said. After the elections in June Sinn Fein will be allowed to take their seats in the executive and nothing can stop them provided they sign up to the Mitchell principles which we've seen during the talks they will drive a cart and horse through as they did whilst they were in the talks. HUMPHRYS: So what does Tony Blair have to do between now and Friday to persuade you to put your cross next to the Yes? DONALDSON: Well I think, with all - with respect to the Prime Minister, and I appreciate that he has made an effort here to try and reassure people, but having looked at what he said I've come to the conclusion that the Prime Minister can't actually provide the kind of assurances and safeguards that I need, because to do so would require him to change and alter the terms of the agreement, and he is unwilling to do thatand therefore I think the Prime Minister's hands are probably tied in terms of what I need to insure that democracy and justice are safeguarded in Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: So there's no point in you trying to see him again. You've decided you will vote No. DONALDSON: Well, on the basis of what the Prime Minister has said I don't believe he can deliver the kind of safeguards now in the legislation. I think that's quite clear because to do so in his opinion, would be to alter the terms of the agreement, so we have to vote on what is in the agreement, and based on what is in agreement I will be voting No. HUMPHRYS: Given that most people, we presume, will vote Yes, the majority across the board will vote Yes, does it matter very much or at all if most Unionists do not vote Yes? DONALDSON: I think it matters considerably, because what we need in order to achieve real stability in Northern Ireland is an agreement that can command the support of both traditions in Northern Ireland. After all, every political initiative in the past has failed, we're told by the government, because it failed to attract the overwhelming support of both traditions, and if a majority of Unionists are against the agreement for very very real, and I think, reasons that are understandable, then I think the agreement is in trouble. But can I say this, fundamentally I want to see peace in Northern Ireland, but I don't see anything in this agreement that actually requires the terrorists to deliver peace. The terrorists are getting a one-way ticket - a free ticket to democracy. Now, the Prime Minister says that he will ensure over time that they hold to that peace, but are we going to get more than just a mere tactical ceasefire? I hope not, I hope we get real peace, but I have to say that society is entitled to require the terrorists to actually deliver peace, and I wish the agreement required them to do it but it doesn't. HUMPHRYS: Mr Donaldson, thank you for that. I won't be coming back to you because I know you don't want to be seen to be debating or arguing with a member of your own party. So let me go to John Taylor again at this stage. Your leader David Trimble said this morning, if the vote is equivocal, the Unionist vote is equivocal, there will be serious problems. Now, what is equivocal? TAYLOR: Well I think if it were less than sixty-five per cent For, that we would have a problem in Northern Ireland in making the assembly work successfully. I've been in all the counties of Northern Ireland campaigning during the past two weeks and I'm quite satisfied that the majority of Catholics are going to vote Yes and that the majority of Protestants are going to vote Yes. And in every county of Northern Ireland, County Fermanagh until after midnight last night, and there again I'm convinced that the majority of Protestants are going to vote Yes. The question is what will be the size of the Protestant majority voting Yes. HUMPHRYS: And that's a crucial question isn't it. TAYLOR: That's crucial because if you had simply a fifty-fifty split, then it does mean that the wreckers, you know like the DUP, the Paisley people, the kind of mobs you have shouting around in some of the halls around the country at the moment, they would certainly be able to wreck it, and you know they are offering no alternative, this is the problem. Everyone who says they are going to vote No, what is their alternative? HUMPHRYS: Let me come back to that in a moment. But let's just stay with the majority for a moment. On your calculation, if it's a sixty-five per cent vote, that would mean, complicated arithmetic but nonetheless that would mean only just over fifty per cent of Unionists had voted Yes. Now is that going to be enough, that's not really unequivocal is it. TAYLOR: That's what I say, that's the minimum. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. TAYLOR: But if it's less than that- HUMPHRYS: But would that be enough is what I'm asking you. TAYLOR: I think on that basis we could then proceed to win in the General Election because you just heard Jeffrey Donaldson there saying that even though he's inclined to say No, that he's more or less prepared to accept the decision of the referendum. I think there will be many people who will come on board after next Friday. At the moment they are scared, they are alarmed, they are saying things which aren't really in my opinion correct. You know for example the question of the agreement. You just don't decide on the agreement alone. There have been further promises by the Prime Minister, letters and writing, his statement in Northern Ireland this week. You know these terrorists are not going to get into the Executive. We must keep repeating that. And incidently there doesn't need to be an Executive until next year because the powers are not going to be transferred to the Northern Ireland Assembly until February 1999, yet decommissioning must start in June this year. HUMPHRYS: Right, so Tony Blair's assurance, reassurance, is good enough for you? TAYLOR: It's good enough for me because you must remember that when we get this assembly we can do exactly what you are suggesting could happen. We could bring it down, oh yes, we will have the power to do that. Why stop the thing now, let's give it a chance, let's try and make it work. No-one else is providing an alternative, if we make this work it's great for everyone in Northern Ireland, Catholic and Protestant alike. But if the terrorists misbehave, if they don't carry out the requirements that the Prime Minister says they must, well then the thing collapses. And they will be the reason it collapses, not us. I don't want to see the Unionists and Protestants being blamed for this collapsing. HUMPHRYS: But you would be prepared to bring it down if necessary? TAYLOR: Oh absolutely, in such circumstances, in no way are we prepared to sit with people who are involved in terrorism. HUMPHRYS: Well in that case, let me go back to Mr Robinson. Peter Robinson, now why isn't that good enough for you? PETER ROBINSON: Well I really have heard it all now. He points the finger at those in the No campaign, calls them wreckers, then indicates his preparedness to be a wrecker as well. I have in front of me the independent Chairman's draft document. When John Taylor saw this document he said he wouldn't touch it with a forty foot bargepole. When this document came out there were two significant changes between this document and the one that John Taylor is now advising the people of Northern Ireland to sign. The two changes made it worse- TAYLOR: Oh no. ROBINSON: -the two changes first of all related to decommissioning. There is now no requirement to decommission, there was in the first document. The second change was in relation to the important issue of terrorist releases. There was no requirement to have them released within two years in the first document, there is in the second document. If it couldn't be touched with a forty foot bargepole in the first case it couldn't be within half a mile of being acceptable on the second occasion. Further can I say, it is absolutely untrue to say to the people of Northern Ireland that they have to vote on this agreement, plus some assurances from the Prime Minister. The vote they will take will be on this agreement and this agreement alone, nothing else will be included in it. HUMPHRYS: What he is saying to you Mr Taylor is you rolled over. TAYLOR: Not in the least. I was involved in the talks. As you know Peter Robinson ran away from the talks and that's his decision. HUMPHRYS: Chose not to take part. TAYLOR: Yes, exactly. ROBINSON: No, that's not right either. TAYLOR: We were involved in the talks and I was there on the Tuesday. HUMPHRYS: What's not right. Let's just clear that up because he's saying that's not right. You chose not to - if you wanted to be part of the talks you could have been part of the talks. ROBINSON: I was part of the talks. I was in the talks for fourteen months. Unlike Mr Taylor, I kept my manifesto pledge. Mr Taylor and myself both pledged that we would not sit down with terrorists who had not decommissioned their weapons. Mr Taylor ran away from his election manifesto - I did not. TAYLOR: We stayed in the talks to defend- ROBINSON: You broke your manifesto- TAYLOR: -in Northern Ireland. We didn't negotiate or speak with Sinn Fein. ROBINSON: You did. TAYLOR: We defended the Unionists- ROBINSON: You did. TAYLOR: We defended the Unionists of Northern Ireland. The DUP, as ever, ran away. ROBINSON: You ran away, broke your pledges, broke your pledges. TAYLOR: Now could I get to the- what was the point he was making about- HUMPHRYS: What I want to pick up with you is the alternative. Let us assume... TAYLOR: No sorry, he did make the point about the Tuesday document and that's very important because once again the DUP are selective. There was a major change in the Good Friday document. In the Tuesday document there were three indexes of North-South institutions, they were all removed and that's the important point. HUMPHRYS: Let me go back to you Mr Robinson. Point that John Taylor made earlier. What is the alternative, if this collapses where do you go from here? ROBINSON: Well, the alternative to Mr Taylor supporting a process that allows prisoners out is to keep them in. The alternative to having a process that leads to Dublin rule is to remain under British rule. The Prime Minister- HUMPHRYS: Where have you been for the last twenty-five years? ROBINSON: I was going to come to something very specifically. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom thinks it's acceptable to give Scotland a strong form of devolution. That's an alternative, and it's one that I will accept. He's prepared to give the people of Wales a softer form of devolution. That's an alternative, and it's one that I will accept. The people of England are allowed to have a strong form of local government. Again, they're going to have on this occasion directly elected mayors. That's an alternative, and again it's one that I will accept. I am prepared to be ruled here in Northern Ireland as any other part of the United Kingdom is being ruled. What I am not prepared to do is to have the Union destroyed by setting up all-Ireland bodies which will develop and expand, and will become a United Ireland. Mr Taylor can sell his country, but I will not. HUMPHRYS: Are you prepared for the war to go on the way it's been going? ROBINSON: The people who will start the war again are the people who are sitting alongside John Taylor in the talks process. Those are the only ones who are going to go out fighting. It'll not be the people in the No cmapaign that will be starting up any violence. TAYLOR: Could I come back on this now. First of all Peter there says, his alternative is one that keeps the prisoners in. But of course that's misleading the public in Northern Ireland. The prisoners are being let out on a weekly basis for years. As I said earlier- ROBINSON: Only when they serve their sentences. TAYLOR: -and when there will be only eighty left at ROBINSON: Only when they serve their sentences. TAYLOR: They're getting out all the time under remission- ROBINSON: When they serve their sentences. TAYLOR: It's very important that people realise this. But his alternatives - he says he wants to be ruled like the United Kingdom. So would I, and he then says he wants the Prime Minister to give Northern Ireland what he gives Scotland and Wales. They're getting devolution yes, but you know what the weakness and Peter Robinson's and the DUP's problem is? We're different from some of the other parts of the United Kingdom. Wales and Scotland, the people there give consent to what the Prime Minister is doing. The people in Northern Ireland are divided. They do not give consent, and both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party with a very big majority are saying: You've got to get agreement within Northern Ireland, amongst yourselves, on the type of administration you want, and that's what we're now trying to achieve. It doesn't guarantee peace, but what it does guarantee, it guarantees the people of Northern Ireland will control their own affairs on a daily basis, Health, Education, Public Services, and in any further North-South agreements we will have a veto over what happens, and we haven't had that for twenty-five years. HUMPHRYS: And should you not, in the last few seconds Mr Robinson, should you not be sitting there now and say: I'm opposed to the agreement okay, but if they vote for it on Friday, I will do my damnedest to make sure it works for the future of Northern Ireland.? ROBINSON: First of all the people who will have a veto will be the Nationalists, and John Taylor knows it very well. I will never consent to any arrangement that is going to allow Northern Ireland to be taken away from the United Kingdom and put into a united Ireland, whether it is under John Taylor's progressive and developing process or indeed through any other way. I say No to this agreement because it puts terrorists in government, because it sets up an undemocratic assembly, because it sets up an all-Ireland body which will develop and expand towards the united Ireland. That's the sad reality. TAYLOR: -the Republican Sinn Fein. ROBINSON: - this agreement that John Taylor has accepted is one that will lead to a united Ireland and everybody in Northern Ireland should be know that. HUMPHRYS: Final quick word. TAYLOR: Republican Sinn Fein has just issued a statement in Dublin saying that the Stormont agreement is the signal for a national surrender across the board and the chairman of Sinn Fein himself says that the new assembly does have a controlling input in both the establishment of the North-South bodies and their functions. That's what the Republicans are scared of. We have won the constitutional argument. HUMPHRYS: John Taylor, Peter Robinson, thank you very much. That's it from this shorter On The Record. The full hour next week. Until then good afternoon. ...oooOooo...