................................................................................ ON THE RECORD NICK BROWN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 11.10.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Nick Brown, a crisis for Colin Robinson, no doubt about that. Do you acknowledge that the industry itself as a whole is in crisis now? NICK BROWN MP: No, I acknowledge that the industry as a whole is going through difficult times but things are particularly difficult for the livestock sector and for the hill farmers perhaps more than others and there are some sectors of the industry and I would cite pig-farming as an example, are going through what could truthfully be described as a crisis. So yes the sector as a whole is going through difficult times, but it's more difficult for some than for others. HUMPHRYS: For the small farmer. BROWN: I think it is particularly difficult for the small farmer, particularly for those on marginal land. HUMPHRYS: And they-you'd accept the word crisis as far as they are concerned. BROWN: We are getting into a semantic debate. HUMPHRYS: Well I don't know, if and when this whole.. BROWN: Times are very difficult and they are looking to the government to help. There are three things I've got to do. I've got to respond to the immediate difficulties and whether you use the word crisis or not for the whole of the industrial sector I think is rather beside the point. HUMPHRYS: I was talking specifically about the smaller farmers. BROWN: I accept they are going through very difficult times and they want the government to do what it can, what it properly can to help. I accept also that I have a duty to spell out clearly the medium term framework in which the industry is going to be operating, so that people can then make their decisions based on some certainty and as well as that we need to get engaged into the longterm discussions concerning what is called Agenda 2000, which is our-the British proposals for a form of a Common Agricultural Policy. HUMPHRYS: Right, well let's look at each of those if we may, but the short-term first. And there are, as you acknowledge, if not a crisis there are very serious problems in the short-term for people like Nick Robinson. Is there any more money for them, on top of the eighty-five million pounds that was announced by your predecessor. BROWN: My department's budget is fixed for three years as part of the spending round and I've inherited that framework. However, the-as you probably have realised had a series of meetings with organisations representing farmers, not just in the United Kingdom, I've been to Cardiff to meet the Welsh Farming Organisations. I've had long discussions with Donald Dewar about the situation in Scotland, as well as with Ron Davies about the situation in Wales. And it is true that in the current circumstances the farmers have made a very persuasive case for further assistance and that's being examined within government now. HUMPHRYS: So they'll get more money. BROWN: I cannot say that. All I can say is that that's being examined within government now and they have made a very persuasive case. What I have to do is to ensure that any assistance that is given and resources are pretty limited, is targeted at the immediate crisis and doesn't in the longterm make matters worse rather than better. The move towards liberalised markets is clearly the way forward. HUMPHRYS: But if you acknowledge that they have made a very persuasive case and that they have very serious problems, it would be very odd then to say: and by the way we're not going to give you any more money. BROWN: Well, no it wouldn't be odd because there are other perimeters to this as well. But the case is persuasive and one thing I'd like to knock down is this idea that the farmers are always coming to government demanding more public money, just for them. That is not the case that the NFU have made to ministers. There has been a case that is targeted on the immediate crisis and they have made some points to us and we are considering them. But they are not asking for a broadscale handout from the public purse. HUMPHRYS: No, but they need help at this moment, that's very clear. BROWN: They need specific help. HUMPHRYS: Yes. BROWN: Targeted at the problem and I acknowledge that the problem is specifically, particularly severe in marginal areas, hill-farmers in particular and I acknowledge that the short-term problem is that supply exceeds demand. Now there are a range of reasons for that, a third of all European exports of foodstuffs are to Russia, that market has collapsed. So there is a much bigger surplus now than was even foreseen by those who were making decisions say a year, eighteen months ago. HUMPHRYS: Can I come to that in a minute and just stay with money for a moment. I mean there is money, you heard Ben Gill say - of the National Farmers Union - say in that film, that there is money as we all know available from Europe but at a price as it were. It isn't free money. Okay, I acknowledge, before you tell me, that it isn't free money. Of course he made that point himself, but it is there, he seems to think, and it's a complicated area, I acknowledge, but he seems to think you could, at this stage, you should at this stage say: look, we'll take some of that and give it to the farmers who are in such need. BROWN: What the-the issue that Ben is addressing there is the issue of agromonetary compensation. The European regime is permissive, it allows the British Government to pay certain sums of money to some farm sectors under what is called the Fontainebleau Agreement, which was negotiated by the last Conservative Government, seventy-one per cent of all such monies that are paid out in this country come directly from the British taxpayer. So it is not the case that there is somehow a sum of money over in Brussels waiting for me to go over and claim it. What I have to do is to get their permission and then persuade others within government to.. HUMPHRYS: Like Gordon Brown. BROWN: Well, exactly.. HUMPHRYS: It's better than having to find a hundred per cent, isn't it, that's the point. I mean.. BROWN: Not just the Chancellor, others within the government.. HUMPHRYS: Okay. BROWN: ..others within government, that it would be right to draw down this permission in particular circumstances. HUMPHRYS: But your mind is open to doing that? BROWN: It is one of a range of things that are being put to us, and I'm giving it active consideration, along with the other things that are being suggested. But what I want is, if we can get a package put together, and I'm not saying we can, but if we can, I want it specifically targeted on the crisis and not to have it tangled up, as I thought your programme very fairly said, not to have it tangled up in the medium term prospects for the industry, where I think we should spell things out.. HUMPHRYS: Absolutely. BROWN: And certainly not to have it cut across our Agenda 2000 proposals. HUMPHRYS: Sure, and that as I say I want to come onto. But let's stay with the immediate thing and supermarkets. Let's look at what they are charging for lamb or beef or pork and look at what the farmers are getting. Do you agree that there's something wrong with that? BROWN: I have meet a range of representatives from the producer side of the industry and I really have worked really hard at that. I've not yet had the supermarkets in to hear their side of the case but there is no doubt.. HUMPHRYS: About time you did, isn't it? BROWN: ...but there is no doubt-you've got to do these things in order and... HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but how long does it take. Having talked to the farmers, how long does it take to talk to the supermarkets? BROWN: Well, first of all I've got to work out what I'm going to say to them. It is the producer side that is going through a crisis. We have this OFT investigation into supermarket pricing more generally and there's a contribution from the Welsh Select Committee to that investigation. The things I would like to say to the supermarkets and will be saying to them shortly, are that I'd like the industry to come closer together, to co-operate on market schemes and to make sure that the producer and the retailing side and indeed the wholesalers in the middle treated each other fairly. HUMPHRYS: And at the moment you're - well, no, let me not put words into your mouth - do you believe that there is a degree of unfairness. Afterall, the very, very simple fact that not just farmers, but everybody else observers, is that the price of lamb and beef has dropped like a stone, but go to the supermarket and the price has stayed exactly where it was. That cannot be fair, can it. BROWN: Because supply exceeds demand it is a buyers market and the farmers say that the retailers, all those acting on their behalf, are taking unfair advantage of it. But there are other factors involved in this. For example, the market in skins, which used to be part of the producer income, not part of the supermarket income has collapsed. The skins used to be sold to Turkey, finished and then then sold onto Russia, that isn't there anymore. HUMPHRYS: We're talking about the meat at the moment. BROWN: Well yes, but the livestock isn't sold just as meat- HUMPHRYS: No, no of course not, but it is an enormous factor. I mean if supermarkets are buying meat at, let's say a pound a kilo, and they are selling it at three pounds a kilo, there is something wrong isn't it, when it is the farmers who are suffering. I mean that's just simple commonsense isn't it. BROWN: It is not quite as straightforward as that. These are fairly complex matters. I want to discuss them with both sides of the industry and I do not want to set people up as villians and victims, 'cause I don't think that's a very constructive way to have this discussion. HUMPHRYS: But, I mean Asda for instance.. BROWN: ..the producers need the retailers and the retailers need the producers, it's as straightforward as that. I want them to work more co-operatively together and it's the responsibility of my department and me as the political head of it to draw, get people together and to set the tone and that's what I intend to do. HUMPHRYS: Obviously a factor is, you've mentioned it yourself, supply and demand - one of the problems at the moment is that some supermarkets, and indeed others, are buying foreign meat when they could be buying British meat. Course sometimes they cannot buy British meat, I fully understand that in, in the case of beef, but in the case of lamb, let us say, they could buy British lamb, frequently they're not. Now one supermarket, Asda is saying "We will buy British meat", do you think there should be a "Buy British" campaign? BROWN: .. we are, the market exists within the European Union, and we have our obligations to our trading partners. It's a free market, but there's, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that it is possible for British farming to compete within that free market. HUMPHRYS: Well that doesn't answer the question though does it? BROWN: ..and, and, to compete successfully,what I want to examine and again it's, the answer's in the detail rather than in some kind of broadstroke pronouncement for me, is to make sure that there is proper free trade, and there aren't unfair trading practices happening elsewhere to the disadvantage of British farmers, and I'm, I'm determined to act on that. HUMPHRYS: Do you buy British meat? BROWN: Yeah, I do, I most certainly do .. HUMPHRYS: You make a point of it? BROWN: Yes I do .. HUMPHRYS: And you'd like to see others do the same? BROWN: Where I can, I certainly .. I certainly shop at the local Asda in Gosforth in Newcastle and they sell British, and I buy British. I also go to the Co-op down the road and they do the same. HUMPHRYS: So, so, I think it was the Archbishop of Wales today who said we should not necessarily boycott the supermarkets but if, if you can buy your meat locally, in a butcher who supplies local meat then do that. Would you encourage that as well? BROWN: Well, I, I certainly do it, but I think in a free market, people can all make their own choices. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but do you think they should - I mean of course they can - but one has heard ministers in the past saying "We think it would be jolly good if you did X, Y, Z" do you think it would be jolly good if they do the same? BROWN: Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I think people should buy from British source, and that's because the animal welfare standards in this country are much higher than they are elsewhere. We are in the vanguard of these moves, even in the European Union and the farmers rightly say that there is a premium to be paid for that. I think that consumers who care about animal welfare, should insiste on buying to the highest welfare standards, and that does mean, doesn't exclude buying Swedish, Danish, or from others who meet these standards, but it certainly does mean buying British. HUMPHRYS: You'd better have a word with the Ministry of Defence then - I don't know whether you've seen the story in the Sunday Telegraph this morning. They have not bought a single piece of British lamb to feed their troops this year. Seven hundred and fifty tonnes they've bought and this is nothing to do with Europe at all. Fifty two per cent from New Zealand, the rest from Uruguay... BROWN: Well I haven't - I haven't seen that and I will be having a look at it. I did write to the Ministry of Defence recently, in the context of the crisis in the pig industry, and I asked them if they would make sure that they were buying to the highest standards and to look at their sourcing policy, and they buy a hundred per cent British pork and just over fifty per cent of the bacon is British as well. HUMPHRYS: So would you tell them, ask them, you can't tell them, clearly you're not in that department, but would you ask them to do the same with British lamb? BROWN: I'll, I will read the newspaper reports very carefully and then be talking to George Robertson about procurement policy. HUMPHRYS: And if that .... BROWN: More, more, more than that, I'm not .. HUMPHRYS: But if that is what they are doing - well let me put it to you in this way - if that is what they are doing, if you satisfy yourself from the facts of their .. if you satisfy yourself that that is what they are doing, you will say "Look, come on, buy British". BROWN: I'm going to have a hard look at the facts and then make my representation. I don't want to make some pronouncement here today that I can't follow through. I mean one of the most difficult things in this discussion is about people knowing where they stand and I'm very careful not to make some pronouncement and then find I can't keep it. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at the beef ban. You're assuming that it is going to be lifted by the end of the year, aren't you, by Christmas? BROWN: No, I'm not making any such assumption. HUMPHRYS: Are you not? BROWN: I'm trying very hard indeed to get it lifted and I've set a target for myself, to make sure that the issue is drawn to a conclusion, before Christmas. But remember this, it is not my ban, I've got to persuade, I've got to persuade other ministers, who haven't got the same vested interest in it that Britain now has, to lift the ban. HUMPHRYS: If, in the event that it is not lifted then, the calf processing scheme, which is a complicated business, but nonetheless it means that farmers get a bit more now, than they would if it was stopped, that's going to be stopped before the ban is lifted. That's adding to the farmer's burden isn't it? BROWN: It would be, it would be stopped next year anyway, it comes to an end so .. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but you've got the rest of this year, I mean it's due to be stopped .. BROWN: Yeah, I accept that, and that's one of the points that the farm unions have made to me and it's one of the things that I want to look at again. There is a cost to it, and as we discussed before, some of that cost falls on the British taxpayer, but there is a logical case for the farmer's position, and that's why I want it considered again within government. But it costs money. It's not a silly option. HUMPHRYS: But you are looking at that again? BROWN: Yes I am. And I think the farmers have made a perfectly logical and persuasive point around it. They're not asking for a continuing subsidy, they're asking for a particular targeted intervention, which has quite a strong case for it, and in particular in the context of the current crisis. You see I cannot promise to get the beef ban lifted before Christmas. HUMPHRYS: But you ... BROWN: All, all I can do is set out my objectives and work very hard towards it and it's not just me - the whole of the government is behind this campaign....(interruption)....it's being, it's being, it's being led by the Prime Minister personally. Now I don't want to kind of give odds, or bet on it, we're just going to work very hard towards it and it will still be the policy of this government, even if we don't achieve it, before Christmas, we're going to keep on until we do. Yes it has been a national tragedy for this country. We've done everything we were asked to do under the Florentine Agreement. The date-based export scheme is all there, it's up and running, we're ready to export again, into a European Union, but we require the consent of our partners in the Union and that's what I'm negotiating now. HUMPHRYS: But do you think that is a reasonable chance, I mean, are, are you optimistic? Let's put it like that. BROWN: On the merits of the case, the ban should be lifted. HUMPHRYS: Sure. BROWN: More than that I cannot say. The issue is highly political, on the science and on the logic of the case, it should be lifted. HUMPHRYS: Soon, by Christmas? BROWN: I hope so. That's what we're working for. HUMPHRYS: Right, let's move to the longer term then. When, if when all these short term problems have gone, we're still going to have the long term problem aren't we, of farmers, small farmers mostly in the more difficult bits of Britain, difficult agriculturally, having terrible problems making a decent living. Something is going to be - have to be done about that. You seem to me to have three options, let's go through them if we may. You could let the market rip - you could say, reduce the subsidies, chop the subsidies and let the weakest go to the wall. Is that an option as far as you're concerned. BROWN: Not for me it isn't no, nor for the Labour Government. It's the sort of thing you'd expect the last lot to do. HUMPHRYS: So that is not an option, okay. BROWN: No, we believe there should be an element of social policy in support for rural communities, just as there is for inner city communities. HUMPHRYS: Right. BROWN: For the same reason. They wouldn't get by without it. HUMPHRYS: Social then, and let me add to social environmental policy, which is the second point I was going to make. Do you see the logic of effectively paying farmers - small farmers now - we're not obviously talking about the great barley barons of the East coast, the arable farmers- being stewards of the land, so you would actually subsidise them rather than the crops they grow or the beef or the beasts that they fatten, to look after the land? BROWN: Well, the barley barons are important to this country and I wouldn't be dismissive of their interests, but they will do best in a liberalised world market where they'll be very competitive. HUMPHRYS: Without any subsidies at all? BROWN: Well, they won't be able to get into the, that world market if the mechanism for support within Europe is price support, because it will always be too expensive. You then have to provide further subsidies for exports and that's something that we're trying to move away from in world terms, not just in European terms.. HUMPHRYS: You've got your work cut out there. BROWN: I have got my work cut out there, but I should state the policy clearly and make a start on it. I mean we're in the vanguard of this as you rightly point out. On the question of the small farmers and others, medium sized ones if you like, should the government provide targeted support for environmental measures, my answer to that is yes, the government should, and that is part of the British government's package of proposals in the Agenda 2000 reform debate. HUMPHRYS: And there is another thing that you can do of course, and that is to encourage organic farming in a way that you have not so far. You've paid lip service, let me not blame you - you've not been in the job five minutes. Predecessors have paid lip service. When it actually comes down to it in terms of financial help, and after all we're talking about something that is going to benefit the nation - I declare my interest here - I'm a supporter, I suppose I have to say that really don't I, but nonetheless an awful lot of people can see this argument, but the help that organic farmers have had has been derisory. BROWN: Well, I'm a supporter too, as was Jack Cunningham, and indeed in what was a very difficult Budget round for the department, he actually managed to put more resources into the Budget to specifically encourage organic farming on farms of over three hundred hectares, in other words to try and get medium sized farmers to go into organics. Now I'm quite keen on that, it's.... HUMPHRYS: Quite keen? BROWN: Yes, sure, not to the exclusion of the rest of the industry. I want to be supportative of the organic sector, and clearly providing extra financial support as Jack did in his Budget round, is being supportative. HUMPHRYS: Mm - well, up to a point Lord Copper - I mean we are .. well we are... BROWN: What you want me to say is that I am much keener on organics than I am on farming in general, and that's not the case. I am supportative of it but not to the exclusion of all my other responsibilities. HUMPHRYS: Well, but you don't have to be exclusively enthusiastic about it do you... BROWN: Then we're not quarrelling, good. HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm not sure that we are quarrelling - I think we probably are quarrelling, because you seem to think that you've done quite a lot, or the government has done quite a lot... BROWN: Well I've done something. You said I'd done nothing. HUMPHRYS: I said it has been derisory, and I stick by that because if you look at the support that we give people farmers, to convert to organic farming in this country, it is less than any other single country in Europe and the result of that is that we have nought-point-three-six per cent of our farmland being farmed organically, when clearly there is a demand for organic food compared with in some cases ten or even more per cent - twenty per cent in some cases on the continent. Now, are you satisfied with that state of affairs? BROWN: No, and I certainly think that within the Agenda 2000 proposals and within the environmental package that is part of the total - remember we also intend a rural premium as well, a premium for marginal lands - I think it's perfectly reasonable to look at a bigger contribution towards the organic sector, but at the end of the day the consumers have got to want it, you know, not just the farmers. HUMPHRYS: The broad picture, there are obviously things you want to do, subsidies - clearly you've got to deal with the subsidies mess because that's what it is at the moment isn't it? BROWN: Yes. HUMPHRYS: You've got Europe to deal with haven't you? Are you going to be able to get all that sort of thing through? BROWN: I'm not sure I'd describe it as a mess but it is complex, and each scheme has its own particular rules, and I think those who have to operate it do find - have to operate the whole series of schemes - do find it a burden. As you know our Agenda 2000 proposals are for a broadly liberalised market with support packages for rural communities, for marginal land, and for environmental measures, and indeed was a feature of regional policy and for areas of special hardship are all de-coupled from production, and that's the important point. In other words the subsidy is not given to those who can produce the most, it's not designed to encourage surplusses. It's designed to provide a proper support package for rural areas so that outside that, people can make their own decisions in the market place. HUMPHRYS: Nick Brown, thanks very much indeed. BROWN: You're very welcome. ...oooOooo...