................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 12.10.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The government says it's going to get young people in Britain off the dole and into work... and off drugs and out of crime. I'll be talking to the two ministers who have that task. That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART. NEWS HUMPHRYS: In opposition the Labour Party made five firm pledges. One of them was to find jobs for unemployed young people. Another was to crack down on youth crime. Last week the government gave us somemore details about what it's going to do for youngsters on the dole. I'll be talking to the Employment Minister Andrew Smith about that. But first, what are they going to do about young people who get involved in crime? They've already said they'll speed up the legal system but they've yet to say how precisely. AND this week we'll know more about what they're going to do about the growing drugs problem ...one of the main reasons why so many youngsters turn to crime in the first place. There will be a new drugs czar or perhaps czars, maybe two of them, but what can that achieve? I put that question first to the Home Office Minister Alun Michael when I spoke to him this morning. ALUN MICHAEL: Well, I think as far as the fight against drugs is concerned, it's a simple fact that there is no magic wand. There's no one approach that's going to deal with the problem and therefore it's very important indeed that we should focus all the activities - whether it's the activities of the Police and the Customs in seizing drugs, in carrying forward the fight against those who traffic in drugs, or whether it's the approaches through Education and through Health, that all of these should be targetted together and indeed complement the work that's now going on within prisons to toughen things up and both provide treatment and testing in order to try to tackle the problem of prisoners before their release who have been taking drugs. HUMPHRYS: So is this drugs czar going to have real powers? Is he going to have the power to tell the various agencies - the Police and the Customs Officers and the Probation Officers and so on - to tell them what to do? MICHAEL: I think he's going to have authority. HUMPHRYS: What's the difference between authority and power? MICHAEL: Well, the fact that each of those organisations have their own responsibilities; the Police have their responsibility for tackling both the crimes and the crime prevention approaches that are within their responsibilities. But what it needs is somebody who has the authority of Government and of the Prime Minister whose work involves reporting directly to the- to Ann Taylor as the Law President - therefore is able to really sharpen up the whole performance of every agency. HUMPHRYS: They can't sharpen anything up unless he's got power. I still don't see the difference between authority and power. No good having authority unless you can exercise it. MICHAEL: Well, there is actually, because if you can get all these different agencies working together so that there's a real dynamic, that doesn't take just telling people, it takes leadership; it takes co-ordination, it takes drive - and that is what the Government is determined to put into the fight against drugs. HUMPHRYS: All right. Well let's look then at the Police forces for a moment. As you say, they each have their own responsibilities, their own authority and they all do it differently. They all treat drugs one way or the other differently. Some will lock up people or arrest people because they've got a bit of pot in their possession; others won't, they'll caution them. Now, is there going to be a consistency of approach between the Police forces and will it be the Czar's job to enforce that? MICHAEL: I think it'll be his responsibility to make sure there's consistency but I would make the point that there are different drug scenes in different cities. Not so long ago I went to speak to the Chief Constable and officers in Edinburgh about the way they had dealt with things a few years ago in a way that appeared effective and they made this very point: that the drug scene in Edinburgh was different to Glasgow, different to many cities in other parts of the United Kingdom. So you do need consistency but you also need to be very sensible about using intelligence and knowledge about the realities of the problems in any individual place. HUMPHRYS: So this drug Czar will be able to enforce that consistency that you talk about, bearing in mind that there are going to be, of course, local differences which he will be able to take account of but if he looks at those local differences and says: well, yeah, fine, but nonetheless we think all the Police forces ought to do this, that, or the other, that is what will happen, is it? MICHAEL: You are talking about somebody appointed who's going to report direct to a Cabinet Member with the authority of Number 10, of the Prime Minister, behind him and the enthusiasm of the Secretaries of State involved. What he's going to be able to do is to co-ordinate and give drive that isn't limited by being in this Department or that Department and I think this is going to bring a fresh sharpness to the activity and demonstrate the determination of Government to make sure that all of this activity, all the resource that we put into dealing with the drug problem is actually targeted and effective. HUMPHRYS: But, alright, if he can't enthuse people - and some people aren't easy to enthuse, are they? Or they have their own ways of wanting to do things. Can he enforce it? It's all very well to talk about authority and 'sharpening things up', but can he actually - when it comes to the crunch - enforce it, make it happen? MICHAEL: Yes, I believe that the enthusiasm actually is there. I think, I've talked to a lot of Police Officers from senior down to grass roots level. My colleagues have been talking to people in the prison service. There's very obviously a will on the part of these services for which we are responsible in the Home Office to actually tackle the problems, and I sense that right across Government, both at a national and a local level. HUMPHRYS: I don't know. There's been a will for a very long time, hasn't there? And, we've seen where that has got us! MICHAEL: I'm not sure there has been a will. HUMPHRYS: Nobody's wanted to see the drugs problem get out of hand, come on! MICHAEL: That's a different thing to having a will to tackle it. There are an awful lot of problems: youth crime, unemployment, the drugs problem - many other problems of Government that everybody's been willing to wring their hands and say there are problems but you've now got a Government which is willing to tackle those problems and which is willing to take on the central responsibilty of Government to co-ordinate action. That's what this appointment is all about. HUMPHRYS: Well, it's a massive job clearly this by any standards and what we've got here is a man who is going to be able to exhort, to enthuse people - to use your own language - but who is, in effect, gonna be a paper tiger, isn't he? Because the resources that he will have at his disposal are pretty derisory comparing with the American drugs czar, who's going to have hundreds of millions - has - hundreds of millions of pounds, hundreds of staff. This bloke's gonna have a few pound in his pocket and a handful of staff and he's gonna enthuse people! MICHAEL: Well, I think, with respect, that may be the mistake of the American system. If you put all the resources into one little department. HUMPHRYS: Oh, they've got a lot of other resources as well. MICHAEL: Well, let me make the point. It may look a lot but it won't. What we're talking about here is somebody who will be able to co-ordinate and drive forward policy but will be able to count on the support and the enthusiasm of every Secretary of State, of every Department of Government, of police forces up and down the country, Health Authorities, people in schools and Education. There's a vast resource out there. A drugs czar isn't going to be able to do the thing himself - no - but he is going to be able to make sure that vast machinery of Government is actually used to target the real problems. If we don't do that, we'll continue to have little things happening here and there; some successful programmes in place but not that essential strategic co-ordination which is necessary to tackle the problem which actually is such a central issue when you look at crime - drug related crime, problems amongst young people and so many other issues. HUMPHRYS: And he's going to become immensely knowledgeable, obviously, if he's doing his job properly. Is he going to be able to advise Government on what he thinks you ought to be doing - and I'm thinking obviously of things like an enquiry into decriminalising marijuana (cannabis), which a lot of people want to have happen - including the Lord Chief Justice. Now, if he - after a little while - or being his Czarness - decided this is what ought to happen, will you listen to him? MICHAEL: He's going to be reporting directly to a Cabinet Member. HUMPHRYS: Right, and was he listened to? MICHAEL: Notice is going to be taken of him by all of us who are in Government - that's absolutely true. I do think that the debate about decriminalisation - and you do exaggerate a little what the Lord Chief Justice said - is actually a diversion from getting on with the co-ordination and the action that's needed in so many areas of public life. HUMPHRYS: Will you listen to him? If he says there ought to be this debate, will you listen to him? MICHAEL: Of course we will listen to him but I don't believe that that's the advice that will come forward. I mean, I think the call for a debate ignores the fact that many of us have been thinking about these issues, looking at the evidence and considering what has happened over the years, for a long period of time. And, it's not likely that such unanimity developed among senior policymakers that talking about decriminalisation is a way of diverting attention into an academic discussion, instead of taking action and co-ordinating action and policies to deal with the problems of drugs and drug-related crime, which is what we must give priority to. HUMPHRYS: Right. OK, but if you haven't ruled that out then, at this stage you haven't ruled that out? MICHAEL: I'm not ruling it in. HUMPHRYS: Alright. MICHAEL: I'm saying it's quite clear what our view is, we don't think that decriminalisation is the approach that would help at all. It's a diversion from tackling the problems and co-ordinating action - which is what the czar is going to help us to do. HUMPHRYS: Right, let's look at another aspect of your policy now, then, and that is this fast track for juvenile offenders. You're worried that they don't get to court quickly enough, it takes a very long time to get them there and you're putting forward this new policy for this fast track. Now, the problem with the fast track - which everybody seems to think is a very good idea in principle - is that the courts are either going to need - and all the other services - are either going to need more resources or there must be sanctions to make sure that this actually happens. Which road are you going down? Giving them more resources or sanctions? MICHAEL: Well, actually, it's not quite as simple as that. Can I say, firstly, that there will be an announcement later this week of exactly how we're going to sharpen the speeding up of youth justice but as far as actual decisions by the Courts are concerned, it takes an average four and a half months to get a decision by a court. That means that if a youngster commits an offence now, nothing would happen until next March at the earliest. And, in the case of the more serious young offenders, it might not happen until next autumn. Well, that's ridiculous. If your own children do something wrong, you correct them now - not tomorrow, never mind in several months' time. Now, there are two ways in which we can speed things up. One is speeding up things when it's decided that a youngster has to go to court but even before that we're bringing in a final warning system, which means that when the final warning is given, it's not only a clear, yellow card for that youngster that things are gonna happen if they offend again but, also, at that point there will be intervention by the youth offender teams that we'll be establishing, on whatever is seen to be his real problems - whether it's getting in with the wrong lot, problems at home, a failure to attend school. Whatever the problem, the youth offender teams will be targeting that. That will happen very quickly after the commission of the offence, not in several months' time. And we believe that will actually reduce the numbers who need to go to court in the - not in the long distant future, but in the medium term. HUMPHRYS: So there will be more resources for the youth justice system, will there? More money. MICHAEL: There's not a need for new resources. HUMPHRYS: What? MICHAEL: What we've been doing in recent years, John, is to waste enormous amounts of resources in processing things, in taking months to get youngsters before the courts. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but- MICHAEL: So that the court process is virtually irrelevant by the time they get to court. HUMPHRYS: But they will tell you that the reason that that's happened is because they are under so much pressure. They can't to it. They're not going to run a go-slow or something are they? MICHAEL: No it isn't. It's the fact that all the bits of the criminal justice system have been working against each other and one of the stark things that comes out, if you go round the country and talk to people who are dealing with this at the sharp end, is the way in which confidence has been undermined in the general public and in Police officers in what will happen if youngsters are caught. Youngsters think that things will drift on and they'll get away with it, parents don't think anything very much is going to happen, the Courts and the Crown Prosecution Service very often are demoralised and, again, in all of those quarters, the idea that we're going to take a grip on things and enable people to do things much more quickly, is evoking an extremely positive response. HUMPHRYS: So, no more money, no more resources, no sanctions - we're back to exhortation again, are we? MICHAEL: No, we're not. We're back to proper use of resources that are being wasted. I mean, I was involved in this myself, having worked with young offenders and also chaired the Juvenile Bench in Cardiff before I entered Parliament, and it was most frustrating because there was a vast amount of resource and people's time going in to not doing anything very much. Now, we need to harness those resources into getting messages across to young offenders: If you offend you're likely to be caught; if you're caught, something is going to happen. Messages to parents that you need to take an interest in where your children are and what they're doing and, also, that you'll be given help and support if things are getting out of hand; and integrating the approaches of the youth justice system, of schools, of Education and the general activities of the community. HUMPHRYS: Alun Michael, thank you very much indeed. MICHAEL: Thank you. HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Mr Michael a bit earlier this morning.