................................................................................ ON THE RECORD PETER MANDELSON INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 11.5.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Mandelson, you want this Labour Government to operate more effectively than previous ones, is that what's behind Mr Blair's intention to exercise more control for Number 10? PETER MANDELSON: I think what's important is that this Government as it grapples with events day to day and Ministers become absorbed into the administration of their department, they don't lose sight of the Government's long-term and strategic objectives. It's very easy, you know, for Governments to start to drift when they lose sight of what's coming up and for the long-term objectives to dribble away. Now, we are determined to make sure that that doesn't happen and if I have a role in this Government it is to look ahead, I am sort of the Minister for Looking Ahead. HUMPHRYS: Hence this Strategy Committee that we read about of the big four - that's Mr Blair, Mr Brown, Mr Prescott and you. MANDELSON: Mr Blair will be meeting the principal Secretaries of State at the beginning of each week just to make sure that the strategic direction of the Government is kept intact but he will do something else which I think is even more important than that and that is to work bi-laterally with each department, with each Secretary of State, meeting them on a regular basis and he's started to do that this last week, first of all with the health team and then with the education team to set strategic objectives for them and their departments which conform with the Government's overall strategy, setting objectives, making sure that those actions and what is agreed are followed up, that progress is properly monitored so that we do not lose sight of where we are going, what we need to do, in order to bring about the radical changes that we want to usher in to this country. HUMPHRYS: So what's the point of that Strategic Committee because I left out Mr Cook's name, I think, when I read out the list of names - what's the point of that then? MANDELSON: The point of that is to make sure that at the heart of Government the principal Secretaries of State know the Prime Minister's mind, that he knows their mind and they are all marching in step and I think it's an extremely good way to start each week in Government. HUMPHRYS: But it's more than that, isn't it? I mean you've talked about - you've written about - a more formalised strengthening of the centre of Government by the means of formulating and driving forward strategy for the Government as a whole. That's the role that you are going to be filling, you are instrumental in that aren't you? MANDELSON: I am going to be helping that, yes. HUMPHRYS: And what we are going to see develop, therefore, as a result of all of these changes and many more which we will come onto, is there a more loosely - not exactly, obviously - but a more presidential form of Government? MANDELSON: I wouldn't describe it in that way. Certainly you are going to have a strong centre of Government. HUMPHRYS: Stronger - than it has been in the past. MANDELSON: Well, that wouldn't be difficult, would it? HUMPHRYS: In the past Local Governments. MANDELSON: I think that what we have seen over the last two years and it is certainly something that has struck me and other Ministers who have come into Whitehall to start working for the first time this week, is the sense in which Government has drifted over the last two or so years, the way in which something approaching a paralysis has enveloped the Government over the last two years before the Election. Departments are almost shut down, decisions not being made. There's a chronic drift setting in. Now we want to stop that in its tracks and the way to do that is, yes, to have a strong centre to the Government, yes, to make sure that we have a strong collective will which embraces the Government as a whole and harnesses the energies and the attributes and skills of all those who make up the various departments right across Whitehall. But it's not the same, John, as trying to impose some central control on the Government. It is, as I say, to create and harness a collective will in the Government to make sure that that programme, that manifesto to which we were all signed up and came into office to implement, remains the driving force which carries us through over the next five years. HUMPHRYS: But the worry that some people have is that it will be precisely that, that that is the danger that you will end up exercising what you describe as this strong central control. Perhaps even ..(talking together)...because we have a particular system that we have had for a very long time and people are nervous about change. MANDELSON: Well, I don't think it's a danger that you have a Government at long last that knows its own mind, that has a very strong unity of purpose and that you have coming from the centre of the Government a real sense of purpose and direction at long last. I mean, there is so much change that needs to be carried through that you have to have clearly in your mind all the time the mind focused on those strategic objectives - how you are going to carry through that radical change bit by bit, step by step, always in the knowledge that each action that you take, each building block you put in place is all designed to fulfil your long-term strategic objectives in Government. HUMPHRYS: Well let's have a look at some of the actions that have already been taken. It's clearly early days yet but these are the reasons why people might begin to worry a little bit about the way things are going, about the power that's going to be seized, if you like, centrally. Now, Parliamentary Questions - PMQs - Mr Blair, the Prime Minister, told Parliament about that change - didn't consult, didn't consult with the party leaders - told them it was going to happen and in the words of Tam Dalyell that smacked the Government by edict. MANDELSON: Yes he did do it. And he's a strong leader. I mean he knows his own mind and that's how you bring about change in Government, not by dithering, not by spending- HUMPHRYS: Or consulting? MANDELSON: -weeks and months talking, discussing endlessly about decisions which frankly are pretty obvious and pretty clear cut. Indeed John Major, you know, in his response to the Prime Minister's announcement didn't disagree with what Mr Blair was saying. HUMPHRYS: Didn't like the way it was done! MANDELSON: Didn't like the way it was done, or that was a point that he made. But it's well known that John Major believed long ago - formed the opinion long ago - that Prime Minister's Questions was a bearpit. It didn't confer any sort of dignity or sense or much sort of practical scrutiny of the executive when Parliament came twice a week to do this, but also cut dramatically into the time of the Prime Minister on both Tuesday and Thursday and reduced the Prime Minister's effectiveness in his role. HUMPHRYS: Right. But, you do- MANDELSON: Now, that was John Major's conclusion I believe, when he was Prime Minister, which I think is the reason why he is not opposed in principle to changes that the new Prime Minister has introduced. HUMPHRYS: But there is a difference between dithering and consulting isn't there? MANDELSON: Well, yes, of course the Prime Minister consults. HUMPHRYS: Well, he didn't on this one. MANDELSON: Well, he did consult his colleagues. He consulted. And, he consulted through telephoning both Mr Major and Mr Ashdown. HUMPHRYS: After he'd made the decision. MANDELSON: Yes, but it was the Government's. HUMPHRYS: What sort of consultation is that? Here's what I'm gonna do, now tell what you think. It doesn't matter what you think because I've done it! MANDELSON: It was the Government's decision to take. No, Parliament decides that it allocates time every day between two-thirty and three-thirty to questioning members of the Government. Now who the Government puts up within that hour is the Government's decision. HUMPHRYS: Indeed. But I mean Parliament wasn't
consulted in this either. Put aside the Party - Parliament wasn't consulted. MANDELSON: But, John, it's not a matter for Parliament who the Government chooses to put up to answer questions. Each hour that day Parliament decides to allocate to that. HUMPHRYS: An institution has developed. We've got used to - the nation has got used to the idea that twice a week the Prime Minister's going to stand there and be questioned. Now that's going to change. MANDELSON: John, how long has Parliament existed for? HUMPHRYS: But, alright, this has only been for thirty odd years. MANDELSON: Yeah. HUMPHRYS: I accept that this is a very- MANDELSON: Prime Minister's Questions in its present format has existed only since nineteen-sixty-one. HUMPHRYS: Yes, I know. MANDELSON: Now, are you saying that Parliament - everything that we do, every procedure, every dot and comma of those archaic practices have to remain intact for all time? HUMPHRYS: Okay. Take your point. MANDELSON: I say No. And this Government says No. We are a Party that is interested and committed to change in Parliament as well as outside. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at things that have been around for much longer than thirty odd years then, and things that you want to change - the Constitutional changes you want to make. Now, can you guarantee as the Speaker apparently wants you to do that those changes will be discussed on the floor of the House of Commons, and I'm talking about Parliament for Scotland, Assembly for Wales, abolition of the House of Lords, phasing out the House of Lords and so on, will be discussed not in some Committee Room upstairs, where they can dealt with swiftly, but on the floor of the House of Commons, where of course it's going to take a long time, but nonetheless? MANDELSON: Well, exactly how the legislation is debated and considered by Parliament is a matter that Parliament has yet to agree. All I can say to you is that there will be full, extensive debate of all the key elements and all the main principles, and all the main changes that the Government will be proposing. Parliament will have its right to debate, to deliberate and to scrutinise that legislation in conformity with the way in which it does its business in the standing orders of the House of Commons. I give you that undertaking. HUMPHRYS: You give me that undertaking. You're not giving an undertaking that it will take place on the floor of the House of Commons? MANDELSON: I can't prescribe today exactly how that deliberation will take place, but I can assure you that Parliament's right to debate, to scrutinise, will be upheld and respected by the Government. HUMPHRYS: But you can understand people's worries on this can't you? Particularly given what you said earlier in this interview. You know, we decide, we affirm, we're clear, we know what we want to do, we're not going to dither, we know what's that about. MANDELSON: Well, we were elected with a very clear manifesto and with a very clear programme John, and with a very strong mandate from the public. And I think people are just enormously relieved that they have at last a Government that does know its own mind and has started in the first week in Office getting under way the important start that we have made. For example, in Education and schools, I was very pleased to see - I'm not going to forshadow the Bills that are going to be announced in the Queen's Speech, but we know that the immediate priorities for the government are to drive up standards in our schools and to reduce class sizes in our primary schools. But we can do much more than that and I was very pleased that the Schools Minister straight away this week announced that his Department would be identifying failing schools and identifying the action needed to tackle those failing schools. In Health too action has been immediately taken. Let me make this point because I think it's important that people understand quite what we've taken on and what we've started on this week. The Bills that are going to be introduced following the Queen's Speech on Health are very very important ones, but already Frank Dobson the Health Secretary has taken action to free up resources within the National Health Service so that more money can be devoted to patient care, so that we can get more people treated in the National Health Service. But importantly too, and this is very crucial for the long-term, appointing a new Minister for Public Health, really getting to grips with and tackling those inequalities that exist in our society, at the root of which are poor public health I think is very important, if we're not simply going to use the National Health Service as a corrective, but to use measures to prevent ill-health setting in in the first place. Now these are radical challenges. Jack Straw's battle plan to tackle crime. HUMPHRYS: Right, let's come up to some of those, in a minute, if I may. MANDELSON: These are all very very impressive, and they presage very radical changes which are addressing directly the real needs and concerns of the people of this country. HUMPHRYS: Right. Let me come back to some of those in a minute, but let's stay with the theme for the moment of the way you are exercising - going to exercise power. The role of MPs - the role of Labour MPs in particular. Now, during the Election campaign they were pretty much told what to do. They were given a line and they had to stay with that line. Fair enough people will say, you had the discipline and it helped you to win the Election. MANDELSON: I don't think you understand the Labour Party. HUMPHRYS: Well, I've spoken to an awful lot of members of the Labour Party and MPs and candidates, and it's perfectly clear what happened during that campaign. The question now is whether that is going to continue during this Government, and that worries some MPs. We heard some of them talking about it in that film, being treated like monkeys on a stick. MANDELSON: MPs are not being treated like monkeys on sticks and you're taking out of context actually one flippant remark made by one Labour Member of Parliament. (INTERRUPTION) But I think you're missing
the point here. I think you're missing the point here. I think, you're missing a very, very important point, which is that the Labour Party has changed. People who are coming into Parliament for the first time are New Labour people - modernising people - who are fully committed to the direction in which Tony Blair is leading the Labour Party. They haven't been selected by the Party grass roots on a One Member, One Vote basis, incidentally, in order to come into Parliament, in order to frustrate Tony Blair; they haven't come into Parliament in order to impede or present barriers to the implementation of our manifesto. That manifesto was signed up to by the entire Party membership, including MPs on whom it is binding. People want to see our radical manifesto implemented. Not sidetracked, not buried, not sort of mired in day to day events. They want a Government which is going to address the long-term needs of our country, equipping our economy for the future and making sure that we have many more successes- HUMPHRYS: Alright. MANDELSON: -in our country. HUMPHRYS: Please don't give me another list, just at the moment because I do want to return to that. MANDELSON: Well, oh, well, you say you don't want a list. What you're saying- HUMPHRYS: ...just a minute ago and I'm trying to keep a particular theme, for a moment. MANDELSON: -what you're saying-But, the theme that you're pursuing is this, John. That the-And, it was ... by the film, that we've just seen. That the Labour Party's manifesto was in some way stood slight, or weak or didn't embody radical proposals. HUMPHRYS: I've not even made reference to that, yet! MANDELSON: No, no, your film did - your film did, your film did -and I think it was wrong because you see- HUMPHRYS: Well, you've told us throughout the campaign that you had a modest manifesto- MANDELSON: No, no, we didn't actually. HUMPHRYS: -that you were presenting to us. You said over and over again: this Party is not gonna make a whole string of promises like previous Parties in previous Elections and then be called to account by the Electorate. We're going to tell you what we realistically believe we can achieve. MANDELSON: Absolutely. And, that remains the case. HUMPHRYS: Right. MANDELSON: But, what we also told you is that what we did promise will be deliverable and will be delivered and that, secondly, we told you that the changes that we want to bring about in the economy, in Health, in Education, in tackling crime and taking people off Benefit and putting them in work, the solutions to those problems are not, simply, spending more and taxing more. HUMPHRYS: Now, look. Alright, but- MANDELSON: And, I think, it's very important for people to realise that when people-when they sort of call for bold measures, or radical solutions, they actually see in what we're doing very much more complex, much harder solutions which have to go across Departments in Whitehall, which go to the heart of these problems- HUMPHRYS: OK. MANDELSON: -in the long-term and not simply overnight quick fix solutions. HUMPHRYS: And, what I'm asking is- MANDELSON: -which are brought about by simply turning on a spending tax and- HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well, I- MANDELSON: -taxing people. That is old Labour. It is not New Labour and- HUMPHRYS: OK. And, what I- MANDELSON: -we're not going to govern the country on that basis. HUMPHRYS: Right. And, what I'm asking you is now that we have New Labour and no longer old Labour how - now that you're in power - you're going to deliver all that through the mechanism of Parliament and all the rest of it? MANDELSON: Of course, we are. HUMPHRYS: Now, you seem- MANDELSON: Yeah, how else would we do it? HUMPHRYS: Let me get in a question, if I may - if I may. Now, the question is this: you seem to be saying, in that answer, that you regard MPs not so much as representatives but as delegates, sent to Parliament in order to carry out the wishes of the Leadership? Is that right? MANDELSON: Labour Members of Parliament have been elected in order to carry out the manifesto for which we have received an overwhelming mandate from the public. HUMPHRYS: So, they're not, in that sense, then, representatives, then, of their constituencies in the Burkian sense, for instance. They're there to do what the Leadership tells them to do? MANDELSON: No. They're there to do what the public have elected them to do. That's the difference, John. You see, you're trying to drive a wedge and I understand why you're doing so because it's the sort of line of argument. HUMPHRYS: Because it's a very, very important issue - that's why! MANDELSON: It's a bit of patter that you sort of- you know, pulled out of your film and I understand why you're doing it. HUMPHRYS: On the contrary. MANDELSON: I understand why you're doing it but the point I think - the bore point - is this that we had a very full manifesto, that was published over a year ago. It was very thoroughly worked out. We had very detailed plans, which in our first week in Office we have started to implement. It was a manifesto that was backed by ninety-five per cent of our Party membership. It is binding on each candidate, who stood for the Labour Party in this Election. Of course, each of those candidates who's become a Member of Parlimament represents their Constituency and defends and stands up for their constituents' interests. Of course, everyone does that. I champion the interests of my constituency in Hartlepool and I do so very vigorously and very proudly but I also know that what the people of Hartlepool need, like the rest of the country, are important measures, described in our manifesto, which I am committed as a member of the Government, just as other Labour MPs are who support the Government, to introducing and that is what we're going to do over the next five years. HUMPHRYS: All right. Well, let's look at something that wasn't in the manifesto - at least, not in the manifesto in the way it has just been announced and that's the reform- the way the Bank of England is going to conduct its..the power to- MANDELSON: I'm sorry- HUMPHRYS: Well? MANDELSON: It was foreshadowed in the manifesto. HUMPHRYS: Ah! Well, part of it was foreshadowed but not what we actually saw. I happen to have the manifesto here with me, as it happens - or, at least a bit of the manifesto. MANDELSON: Well, do you want to read it out? HUMPHRYS: Yeah, absolutely. "New monetary" - what you talked about was a new, monetary policy committee to decide on the advice which the Bank of England should give to the Chancellor. Now, what Mr Browne told us- MANDELSON: Are you going to read out the entire manifesto, or would that take too long? HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm afraid just a little bit too long - yeah, absolutely - absolutely. MANDELSON: Because it's there, John. HUMPHRYS: No, it isn't. MANDELSON: Well, OK. HUMPHRYS: I do promise you that I read the entire thing - I do my homework. MANDELSON: You ask your question. HUMPHRYS: And, the question is - thank you - and the question is: why if you knew that that is what you were going to do before you went to the Electorate, because you announced it - What? Four days after you got into power, or whatever it was. Why didn't you tell us because we were voters - what you were going to do? We could have, then, discussed it amongst ourselves. We could have asked you questions about it, when we were interviewing you. Instead, we got bounced into it. MANDELSON: No, you didn't get bounced in it you see what you had in the Manifesto and what you had in speeches made both by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown over the last year, eighteen months, is a determination by an incoming Labour Government to ensure that the workings of monetary policy are conducted on a more transparent and open basis, building on the changes that Mr Clarke himself introduced as Chancellor of the Exchequer but also to free the setting of interest rates from short term political manipulation. Now the only way to do that, to carry out that reform in addition to setting up the monetary policy, a committee that is now being done, is to give the Bank of England that latitude and that independence to free the setting of interest rates from that short-term political manipulation which we think is undesirable and we're doing it because we believe that these changes will promote economic stability because it will confer a more longterm thinking and emphasis in the conduct of monetary policy and economic management which will enable us to lift our economy onto a higher and sustainable growth path which will generate prosperity for all. That's why we are doing it, that's why we are doing it, you are not right in saying... HUMPHRYS: But you didn't tell us you were going to do it. MANDELSON: You are not right in saying that we did not presage that, those changes, in announcements that we made before the election. HUMPHRYS: Mr Blair, the Prime Minister, described it subsequently as "the biggest step in economic policy-making in Britain since World War 2". Now there was not the mildest hint in any interviews that were done before the election - certainly not in this document - that what you were going to do was the biggest step in economic policy making since World War 2. MANDELSON: I am sorry that I haven't persuaded you that we did foreshadow these changes both in our manifesto and the speeches that Mr Blair and Gordon Brown made, but I know those speeches and I know that manifesto very well indeed - I know them inside out - and we did foreshadow those changes. Of course, the way in which we announced them had to take account of the extreme market sensitivity of the changes and announcements that...of course that was the case and we approached it with the utmost diligence and responsibility, as you would expect from us. But it is simply untrue to say that nobody knew in general terms what we wanted to do and the changes that we wanted to make. HUMPHRYS: All right, let's move ahead a bit then because you've given us some hints during this interview of the kinds of things that you intend to do. Let's look at the long-term aims - and I stress the long-term aims of this Government - how are you going to exercise the power that you have? How should we judge the success or the failure of this Government over the long-term, over the five years? Have you got a set of benchmarks, a set of - I think in business they call it "key performance indicators"? MANDELSON: Yes, I think we have. I think that you should judge this Government in five or so years' time by the greater number of more successful world class firms and companies in Britain and that requires a modern partnership between Government and business. Secondly, I think you should judge it by a transformed first class education system in this country. Thirdly, I think you should judge it by a welfare system that has work and the restoration of the work ethic as its centrepiece, which tackles the issues of lone parents, of the unemployed, but also long-term care and the elderly. I think you should judge it by a political system that is stronger, healthier, in which Government has been devolved and decision making more decentralised, and lastly I think you should judge it by a relationship between this country and the European Union in which we are leading and shaping the future course in the European Union rather than following lamely behind what others want to do. HUMPHRYS: Let's try and be a little bit more specific, then. Welfare reforms, poverty. Will the gap between rich and poor narrow under five years of Labour, after five years of Labour Government, will it be narrower? MANDELSON: I believe that will happen, we want it to happen, it is a very central goal. HUMPHRYS: And if it doesn't, will you have failed? MANDELSON; We have lived in a fractured society in which too many people for too long have been shut out of society, denied the opportunities and the life chances that they deserve and to which they are entitled. You have seen already today, Gordon Brown foreshadowing the Summer Budget in which I believe he is going to be introducing the most significant welfare changes that we have seen in our country for 50 years. It's right that work and the work ethic are now put at the heart of welfare reform. It's right that people are employed - young people who have never had work, people who are older who have not had jobs for one or two years should be given the chance again to put into society and take from it and I think you will see in the coming budget a set of measures which are going to usher in very radical long-term changes to our welfare system in this country. HUMPHRYS: All of which were in the manifesto. Some, obviously you have just talked about - youth unemployment, of course - but everything that was in, everything we have heard about... MANDELSON: Action to tackle unemployment, action to enable lone mothers and single parents to get off welfare and into work, tackling the root causes of inequality which exist in poor public health, action to combat homelessness and poor housing conditions - all these things were contained in our manifesto and we will make a start. We are not going to wave a magic wand, we are not going to bring these changes in and create a sort of nirvana overnight, but making the start, making a real difference to people's lives, governing for the whole nation once again, is what this Government is about and which is what is going to drive Gordon Brown's budget in the summer. HUMPHRYS: So just to go back to that question then, you will have failed as a Government if the gap between rich and poor at the end of five years has not narrowed. MANDELSON: We will be very, very disappointed if that gap has not narrowed. HUMPHRYS: Not quite the same. MANDELSON: Well we will be very disappointed, of course. Of course we will be disappointed because we have set very high and ambitious targets for us but I believe that we can do it, that we can do it not simply by increasing welfare benefits and handouts for people but by tackling the root causes of deprivation and inequality. HUMPHRYS: No more beggars in shops, sleeping in shop doorways after five years of Labour Government. MANDELSON: I don't believe that we need in this country to tolerate and to see young people or people of any age sleeping in doorways, we don't need to. We can take the action, it's open to Government to do so if it has the resolve to do so, we haven't see that over the last eighteen years, we'll see it now in Tony Blair's Government. HUMPHRYS: So you'll have failed if you are still seeing people sleeping in shop doorways? MANDELSON: I will be very disappointed indeed if we see the same numbers of young people sleeping rough without a chance, without an opportunity to make the best of themselves in London or anywhere else in the country for that matter. HUMPHRYS: And health, something you didn't put into that list incidentally that...a list of .... MANDELSON: I mentioned public health, I think it's very important. HUMPHRYS: ...health you mentioned certainly but will waiting lists have come down, and will the time we wait,we will have to wait for a hospital bed have been shorter by the end of five years and again, if not, will you have failed? MANDELSON: Frank Dobson has already taken action this week to start freeing up resources in the National Health Service that will enable us to treat a hundred thousand more people, more patients in the National Health Service as a start but it won't end there, I mean, the changes that we've got to make in the health service are really in two areas, first of all undoing the enormous waste and red tape of the internal market and that will require legislation and legislation will be introduced to enable us to do that but we've got to end the two tier health service that has been created by the outgoing administration, we've got to change the way in which health care is delivered, we've got to make sure too that GPs remain in the driving seat of health care as people pass from primary to secondary care, but we've also very importantly indeed, got to tackle the causes of ill-health in the first place which is why I think it's very important to note the Prime Minister has appointed Tessa Jowell as the country's first Minister for Public Health,so we will be taking a great deal of initiative in order to root out those causes of ill-health. HUMPHRYS: So a final thought then. You used the word disappointed several times in those answers, but you have these performance indicators. If you have not achieved those things that you now say you want to achieve you will have failed as a government will you? MANDELSON: We will go to the country in five years' time I believe, with real substantial changes and improvements to our country and to people's lives. The economic opportunity in employment they have. The health care that is available to them, available to all, not better for some and worse for others. The educational opportunity that they have, their ability to live not in fear any more from crime, but to walk in safety as well as safe in their houses too, but also citizens of a country, of a nation, an independent, proud nation in Britain which once again can hold its head high in Europe and the rest of the world, to start leading and influencing and shaping events rather than following behind others taking the initiative. That's what I want to see, and I'm very confident indeed that whilst we keep our eyes focussed on those long-term objectives day to day yes, putting those building blocks in places, making the appreciable changes that we can over the range of policy, but making sure that we keep our eyes focussed on those long-terms goals. You will see a different Britain in five years - you'll see a Britain that has been changed by a new Labour Government worthy of being re-elected in five years' time. HUMPHRYS: Peter Mandelson, thank you very much. ..oOOOOo..