................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MO MOWLAM INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.3.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Northern Ireland. This week the talks will start up again, but Sinn Fein will not be at the negotiating table. They were thrown out because two men were murdered and the Ulster police blamed the IRA. They're supposed to be back next week, but to do what precisely? The Ulster Unionists won't talk to them directly and the negotiations, such as they are, seem to be making very little progress indeed. And the clock is ticking. The talks have to end within the next six weeks because the government set a deadline of May 7th for a referendum to be held on any new agreement. The Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam is with me. Good afternoon, Dr. Mowlam. MO MOWLAM: Good afternoon, John. HUMPHRYS: Can I quote you what you said: "It is hard to stay positive about the talks", you said that in a speech on Friday evening. Is there any real chance, as we speak, that this process is going to get anywhere - that it is going to end up with an agreement? MOWLAM: Yes, there is, and I think if my memory serves me right I said that on Friday night in the context of the bombings that we have recently had in Moira and Portadown and we haven't had a good time in the last month in terms of the violence, but a lot of that one has to remember - which is why I am confident we are going to make progress in the talks - a lot of that violence has come from groups that aren't related or represented in the talks, but are splinter groups who are not on ceasefire, who do not believe in the talks process and are in fact out to destroy it by trying to bring one of the parties - the groups represented by parties in the talks - back to violence. So it's encumbent upon us all to work hard and I believe the leaders of the parties - let me just say - this week we've made real progress in those talks, we are down to detail, there are timetables set for the next week and - yes - I'm confident that we can reach some kind of accommodation in the next six/eight weeks and head for a referendum at the beginning of May so that the parties, the people and Parliament - as we've always said, that triple lock will work. HUMPHRYS: Let's just pick up a bit of what you said there. You said a lot of the violence, but of course not all of the violence has been carried out by fringe groups, some of it has been carried out you believe by the principles, or at least their associates. MOWLAM: Well, that's why in your introduction, the IRA - I think the words used were "have been blamed". Yes, the information that I am given by my security advisers and the RUC is that there was incontrovertible evidence that the IRA were associated with the murders of Mr Dougan and Mr Campbell. In the face of that and the man that has been charged has just joined the PIRA Wing at the Maze - the Provisional IRA. In the face of that it is crucial that we keep the integrity of the talks process together because we were faced with a judgement. We were given information that the IRA were involved. We want to keep the talks as inclusive as possible because the more people represented round the table the more likely we are to get a settlement, but you can't do that if the integrity of the process is violated, because you won't then have a talks process worth having. HUMPHRYS: And it's arguable whether it's worth having without Sinn Fein and it is at least possible as we speak, is it not, that they will not come back to those talks next week or the week after or the week after that. MOWLAM: Well, I had to make a judgement, along with the Irish Government in Dublin a week ago now, and we discussed it with the parties. We were given the evidence, we looked at the integrity of the talks. Now you will either ask me this question in the sense of 'We can't continue without Sinn Fein' or you could have said 'You are letting Sinn Fein in after a limited time period, that's not fair either'. We had to make a judgement between integrity of the process and the principles of democracy and non-violence which the talks are based on, the timespan we have left before the six weeks is up and the need for an inclusive process, and we made a judgement that there was a need for exclusion for a time period up to March 9th. HUMPHRYS: But you may end that period and say "All right, they can come back," as you have done, but they may say "No, we are not prepared to come back," and indeed Gerry Adams has been making it perfectly clear that he will not come back unless the Prime Minister sees him, has talks with him. Is that going to happen? MOWLAM: Well, let me just say on the first point that Gerry Adams has made it clear that he's not certain at what time he'll come back but what we will do is set the date and if by word and deed the ceasefire holds we will invite them back, we can't force them to come, we can't force Mr Paisley or Mr McCarthy but we'd like them there too. HUMPHRYS: No, but you can say to the Prime Minister "I think you ought to see Gerry Adams and then he'll come back,"
because you say you are not sure what he'll do. What he said was, let me quote from what he said in the Irish Times, I think it was, yesterday: "We'll do that meeting when that happens, then we will decide..." he's talking about the Blair meeting "...then we will decide after the Blair meeting what we are going to do next." So implicit in that is that he will not decide on whether to return to the talks unless and until he has had that meeting with Tony Blair. MOWLAM: Yes, but also if you look at that quote very carefully, John, it doesn't actually say he will come back. He will decide then whether he will come back in. It's his decision. HUMPHRYS: Well, do you think Mr Blair should meet him to encourage him to come back? MOWLAM: Well, Mr Blair will make his decision. HUMPHRYS: What would your recommendation be? MOWLAM: Well, I would recommend that he treats all parties with fairness and justice the same. HUMPHRYS: Well, what does that mean in this context? MOWLAM; Well, in this context the UDP who were out for a time period too and Sinn Fein were first seen by officials then seen by Minister Murphy and eventually by the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: So should he see him before March the Ninth. That is the date which is.. MOWLAM I think there is no doubt that he will see them, but the time... HUMPHRYS: Before March the Ninth? MOWLAM: No, the time decision is his, and when I spoke to him on Friday he has yet to make that decision. Now I will support the decision of the Prime Minister. I'm not going to sit here and peel off from him. We've discussed it, he's thinking about it, and he'll make his own decision, and I'll back that. He's the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: But you'd like Sinn Fein to be back at that table wouldn't you? MOWLAM: Yes, but that is not me saying that that should happen before March the Ninth. I've made it clear that we've discussed it, the Prime Minister will make his decision. I want all parties to be treated the same; the UDP were out, they came back last Monday, and Sinn Fein will be treated the same, and the Prime Minister as you well know John, will make up his own mind when he thinks the time is right. HUMPHRYS: He'll have to do it fairly soon won't he? MOWLAM: Yep. HUMPHRYS: And without Sinn Fein this is not what you describe as an inclusive process - this is not a properly inclusive process, and even more important than that, without Sinn Fein there is not ultimately going to be peace is there? MOWLAM: Well it's not inclusive even with Sinn Fein, because we don't have Mr Paisley's DUP Party and we don't have Mr McCartney's UKUP Party. HUMPHRYS: But you do have a majority of Protestants, of ... MOWLAM: We have ... yes, and we've said that no party can hold the process up to ransom, and we would look forward if by word and deed Sinn Fein ceasefire - the IRA ceasefire holds, seeing Sinn Fein back into the talks. We want it as inclusive as possible because when the principle of consent works by the parties reaching sufficient consensus in talks and the referendum. we want that to be as positive representing the vast, vast majority of people in Northern Ireland. But it's like so many issues, you can encourage, you can act, but you can't force people to make decisions. HUMPHRYS: The difference between Sinn Fein and Doctor Paisley's party for instance is that Sinn Fein is crucial to peace. MOWLAM: Well, I think that representation across the divide is crucial to peace. HUMPHRYS: But that's different isn't it. I mean what we're talking about is an organisation that is closely tied in with the IRA, and if Sinn Fein for whatever reason abandons this process, effectively, that is the end of the ceasefire isn't it? MOWLAM: Well, there isn't ... HUMPHRYS: Of the IRA ceasefire. MOWLAM: Of the IRA ceasefire there is no doubt, and I've made my position clear, I would like to see Sinn Fein back in the talks, if the integrity of the process is protected, but if it's not neither party, as we've shown this week from the extremes, all parties from the middle can veto the process. While we have representation in the form of the UUP and the SDLP representing the vast majority of both communities then the process will continue. HUMPHRYS: Not a vast majority, not a vast majority. If you exclude all the others that we've talked about it doesn't become a vast majority does it? MOWLAM: No. I'll give you it's not vast, but it's a majority, and we've said a majority will suffice. Now, I've made it clear that I don't want it to just be a small majority. I got into a lot of trouble about two months ago by saying I want the consent to be much broader, I want it to be a greater number of both communities that agree with the final accommodation, but you can't insist on that because you can't insist that people come in the process. We have to go with a clear majority if that's all we've got. Not a desireable outcome, but an outcome nonetheless. HUMPHRYS: But with or without Sinn Fein isn't the truth that you are not close to an agreement - you are a very very long way away from it and you don't have very long to go? MOWLAM: No, I don't accept that at all
It can be a long way if there is not a spirit and a determination and a courage to get there, and I think if we look at the parties in the talks process there is a will there, there's a will among the parties and there is certainly a will among the people of Northern Ireland to reach an accommodation, so I don't think it is problematic. I mean I've said so often .. HUMPHRYS; Will it be problematic?
MOWLAM: Well, it's problematic, but I don't think it's unlikely. Let me just say - explain in a little more detail why I feel - give me a chance to do so, and that is that - I mean the ball park that it will come into is most people know roughly what it looks like, some form of devolution - some form of North/South co-operation, some change in East/West relations, movement on equality issues, employment, fair and just legislation on employment rights. So that is the ball park that we're talking in. Now, I don't know if you aked any of the party leaders - I would guess there's about ten dozen areas which are conflictual in terms of different views. I mean, in - let's take what we call strand one, which is the devolved - some form of devolution, there's disagreement as to the nature of representation, good old politics, who's going to get a chance to get elected. There is discussion about the nature of the cabinet, the executive, what they should look like, should it be there at all. If you go onto the North/South co-operation, the nature of the body, how it gets it powers, who is HUMPHYRS: What powers it has. MOWLAM: What powers it has. HUMPHRYS: Crucial stuff this. You're dismissing these things as though these are kind of details - they're not, they're absolutely fundamental. MOWLAM: They're fundamental - they're fundamental and I'm just pointing out - not dismissing them, not saying they're not difficult. We're going to have a very tough six weeks. We've got a lot of hurdles to climb over, along with as we began talking, that fringe violence on the edges by people that aren't committed to the process. It isn't going to be easy. HUMPHRYS: No. I mean Bertie Ahern the Irish Prime Minister said there were ten major - at least I think he said ten major areas of disagreement at this stage. MOWLAM: They are serious issues, but you have to, as is always the way forward in this, is you have to be confident. I could sit here and say: John, we've got ten really difficult issues, major, I just don't think we are going to make it. HUMPHRYS: Of course. MOWLAM: If you do that you fail. HUMPHRYS: Well. MOWLAM: You will fail by default. HUMPHRYS: On the other hand to be unrealistic is another matter isn't it. MOWLAM: I don't think I am being unrealistic because I mean people said we were unrealistic last September when we said talks on fifteenth of September inclusive. Didn't get there until the twenty-fourth but we got there. Now, I believe if I sat back and said: serious, serious problems, they would become serious problems. It would be a self-fulfilling prophesy. But I believe that if you get the momentum going, parties are engaging, yes it's difficult, yes it isn't going to be easy, but I believe, looking at the party leaders this week, in the talks process- HUMPHRYS: Some of them. MOWLAM: ...there can be accommodation. HUMPHRYS: Do you want to go off to a mountain top, you know, somewhere away from the hurly-burly, an island or a .... MOWLAM: I made the fatal mistake in an interview like this of having an off-hand joke and suggesting Bermuda. It's cost me dearly because- HUMPHRYS: Well I heard Wales as well, which isn't perhaps as far away. MOWLAM: No, some support for Wales and I have to say the press kind of keep coming up to me with Thailand, Caribbean. HUMPHRYS: So what are you going to do. Are you going to go away or stay put? MOWLAM: It will be up to the parties themselves. I mean I've said that I think .. HUMPHRYS: Mr Trimble apparently doesn't want to go, does he? MOWLAM: Well I think the parties have mixed views. We got some of them given to us last week, they'll discuss it again this week. HUMPHRYS: Are you broadly in favour? MOWLAM: Well I think there's a case for it. But I'm not broadly in favour if the parties don't want to go, 'cause it would be a waste of time, and we don't have in fact a very good track record, we went to London, to Lancaster House and lost the UDP, went to Dublin Castle and lost Sinn Fein. So, the track record is not good but if the parties think it would help, then it would be a plus. But, the difficulty, why I want it, is the press and the press are crucial to this process, it's crucial that the arguments are put to the public. The public need, in Northern Ireland and the Republic to eventually vote in a referendum, if we get that far and I believe we will and it's important the arguments are put across. But to negotiate through the press is counter-productive. So, we're caught in a contradiction and that's one of the things that we're trying to work through in the next six weeks, to give enough information to you, that the public know what's going on, but not enough that people entrench and they discuss an issue and then they have to go out and tell the cameras were they stand. It doesn't help the discussions the next morning. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well let's look at - we've
glanced over the issues in a sense, 'cause I know you're not going to go into those details for the reasons that you've put, quite sensibly no doubt. But, let's look at the timetable. You talked about the referendum there, May the seventh is when it is supposed to happen, by May the seventh. Will you have something to put to that referendum on or before May the seventh? MOWLAM: Well it's a tight timetable, I don't deny. We're working very hard to get legislation together, to get the electoral machine up, to get the referenda there and we're aiming for May the seventh. Now, the only drawback is legislation, getting it through the Dail and getting legislation through the Parliament- HUMPHRYS: Legislation for the referendum itself. MOWLAM: Yes and for the legislation that's necessary to facilitate that, but that is what we're aiming for. Now, I don't think it's - I think it's very difficult but I think we will get there. You ask whether we've got an agreement to- HUMPHRYS: The question, you know the document on which people will vote. MOWLAM: Well all that's being worked on, the mechanics are being worked on now. The actual document clearly needs to come organically out of the process. Now- HUMPHRYS: And if it doesn't? MOWLAM: Well, we'll wait and - I mean of course we're looking at options if it doesn't. But, I have found that the tough way is if I say to you now: well if we don't we're going to do this and then we'll do that, those that benefit most from what we'll do will stop negotiating. So at all interviews I stick to the point that we're going to make it. Now of course we're looking at other options but I believe that if we're determined enough we can do it. If you look at the number of papers from parties, papers from the British Government, Irish Government, that are in debate and discussion now, yes a synthesis will have to be made by George Mitchell, by the governments, by us, by the Irish, I don't know who yet. but the amount of information, ideas, agreements, that have been made, yes we've got tough ones to make. I think there is enough there and enough momentum that we can make it. HUMPHRYS: But the reason I raised that question is that if there isn't, if it doesn't come out of the Talks organically, you use your word, then people like the Unionists for instance, for whom you might argue the status quo was preferable to any radical solution to this, to any radical changes, they might well say: well we won't allow that to happen, we won't allow it to develop organically, we will sit on it. I'm not saying they will, but they could take that view. You will then be faced with a position of nothing, in theory, to put before the referendum and if we see this in terms of a contest, they will have won. MOWLAM: Well, any party can be very awkward and not reach agreement but as I say to you, up to now one doesn't feel that from any of those round the table. The Talks are working, the Talks are engaged. Now, and we will see what comes out of that process. Now, we will not, outside of the Talks process, put down something without their concurrence. People keep asking me this and saying: it's inevitable, the British and Irish will work something up and put it to people in Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: Surely you might have to alter it. MOWLAM: Yes but unless we can work with the parties, and I believe we can in the next six weeks, to find a synthesis, an accommodation that has come out of that process, we are in the ridiculous situation of going to Northern Ireland with the parties not in agreement. Now, are you going to win a referendum in that situation, you have the representatives in the parties campaigning against you? It ain't a winning scenario to my mind. So, I think we stay with it, we don't close off options, we don't close doors down, but we stay with where we are now because progress is being made and I think with a determination and a will, which I know is there, we'll make it. HUMPHRYS: You used the word in your Friday speech, a "prerequisite", I think you were referring to agreement between the parties. We need "accommodation", I think was the expression - accommodation between the parties - that was a "prerequisite". But ultimately, of course, it may not be, might it? Because ultimately if you stick to that rigidly and say we must have agreement between these parties, nothing may happen, because the other thing you went on to say in that speech - and I was interested in the contrast in a sense - is: we need the support of representatives of both communities but enough to satisfy a majority of both sides represented at the Talks. Now, it may be that in the end you are going to have to say: we are not going to get this agreement, there isn't going to be that will there, there may be problems, there may be big problems, there may be relatively small problems but ultimately you are going to have to produce that bit of paper that says this is what we want people to vote on. MOWLAM: But there's a difference - as they always say "with respect", there is a difference- HUMPHRYS: They only say that when they meant to be rude- MOWLAM: I know, that's why I didn't say it. There is a difference between sufficient consensus - which has always been the first step that when the parties are in the Talks trying to find agreement, it doesn't have to be a hundred per cent, it has to be a majority of both communities represented in the Talks. So that's what I mean by sufficient consensus as the first step. So it may mean that some parties in the Talks, some of the smaller parties potentially don't acquiesce, aren't happy with it all, but on balance either accept it or reject bits of it. So sufficient consensus is the first for anything to come out of the Talks, so it can't come just as a result of Nationalist wishes or Unionist wishes. So that's the first step for it to become part of the agreement. When it goes into the referendum it is a majority of those people voting. So that's how it's built in and that's why I say sufficient consensus for it to go into the-what comes into the final accommodation. Now, I'm not going to say that if we don't get that sufficient consensus we will do A, B and C, because I still believe that's possible. I know that's a bit unhelpful for- HUMPHRYS: I thought you were going to say "unlikely" for a moment. MOWLAM: No, no, it's unhelpful in a debate or a discussion like this because it doesn't give you options afterwards, but I just know if I say these are the options then the parties will start identifying with those. I think in a process like this - and I'm not alone in this, you couldn't be alone - there is a great determination to push this forward. You know, I get on interviews like this but you should see people that have given years of their lives to make this..to move this forward, and I believe we are at a better position now than we've ever been. We've got, for example, if I can just say we've got President Santer in Belfast on Monday. Europe, America, other countries have put a lot of money into Northern Ireland, not just in investment but encouraging cross community exchanges. We have, I believe, now in Northern Ireland - yes, a people that are very scared of these random bombings that we began off with at Moira and Portadown, people are lacking in confidence because you don't live with that degree of random violence but alongside that there is a belief that this is the best chance we've got. HUMPHRYS: But what you said in the earlier part of that answer suggests quite clearly that if Sinn Fein for instance do not go along, don't even return to the talks, or whatever, an agreement without them is entirely possible. Something that you can put to a referendum is entirely possible. MOWLAM: Er, yes, as I've said I would prefer that isn't the case because I want them to be inclusive and Sinn Fein at the table would offer a perspective that is crucial. But the process can't be held up by one party, a smaller party, if the majority still holds. Legally that's right. It's not a helpful situation, it's not ideal, it does make the level of settlement harder to reach, but I would like it to be inclusive but if it's not I can't do anything about that. HUMPHRYS: Let's assume that you get to within six weeks of the referendum and you have to decide to put the whole process in train, because it takes quite a while to actually handle the arrangements and all that, and you think you are going to get there but you are not quite there yet, are you prepared to delay the referendum? MOWLAM: What I want to do is make that decision when faced with those facts. HUMPHRYS: It's a possibility then, clearly, in that case. MOWLAM: Well, I tend to avoid hypothetical questions because then you give hypothetical headlines which aren't helpful to the process so I'm going to body-swerve that one because I'm not sure- HUMPHRYS: You are not going to answer it at all- MOWLAM: -I'm not going to answer it at all. HUMPHRYS: -but it's got to be a possibility, hasn't it? MOWLAM: Well as I said on the Talks, we started the Talks in theory on fifteenth, got in on the twenty-fourth. But, so, a slight delay is possible, of course. But let me just say, what do we have further down the road, we have the parades. Now, I don't think anybody would want to hold a referendum in the middle of the marching season. We've set up a commission to try and facilitate accommodation to avoid some of the appalling atrocities that we've seen in the last couple of years, particularly. But that is a kind of end point in some senses, and I don't think it will be terribly positive to leave it for the whole of the summer. HUMPHRYS: But, can we be clear about one thing. This has been a long process and a lot of effort, as you say, has gone into it. Is it conceivable even, that at the end of it all, the status quo will remain, that there will be no change to Northern Ireland's constitution or anything else. That we will be back to where we were at the beginning, or whatever happens, are you putting all the parties on notice that something is going to change one way or the other? MOWLAM: Well, I accept your first point that previous governments, both Irish and GB, have made a real effort to change this, people in Northern Ireland have. So I acknowledge the real push that we have now. I'm not going to say that we are definitely going to put something because that's imposition and we are not going to do that. But what I can say will change, is a British Government, who in our manifesto were committed to a Parades Commission, we've done it, changes to emergency legislation, we've done it, help with unemployment new deal, benefits, changes to Welfare System, on their way. Fairness agenda, fairness in employment equality, we'll be announcing in the next couple of weeks. The European Convention on Human Rights, discuss a Local Bill of Rights. I can see you are going to tell me to shut up. But that is what will change and we are making very sure that what we committed to people throughout the United Kingdom, will happen in Northern Ireland. A fairness and equality agenda which will make a difference to people's lives. HUMPHRYS: Mo Mowlam, thank you very much indeed. MOWLAM: Thank you very much John. ....oooOooo...