=================================================================================== .................................................................................... ON THE RECORD MIKE O'BRIEN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 14.3.99 .................................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mike O'Brien, everyone agrees including you clearly, that something has to be done, but what they are afraid of is that what you are proposing is going to make things worse. MIKE O'BRIEN: Well we inherited a shambles, there are no quick fixes to sort this out and we've got to work through a programme of change. There needs to be new laws, they are currently before Parliament. There needs to be reorganisation and modernisation of the immigration department, that's being done, introducing new computers, moving offices and so on. And there also needs to be more resources and a hundred and twenty million pounds extra is going into the Immigration Department during the course of this year. So we are working through a programme, it will be difficult, this is a system which isn't working. We inherited an immigration and an asylum system with massive backlogs, with a demoralised immigration service and now we are setting about a long-term programme of change but it will take time, but we can do it. I am optimistic that we are putting in place the sort of programme that can deliver a firmer, faster and fairer system. HUMPHRYS: Take the last bit first, what's worrying people is that the changes you've made so far have actually made it worse - this business of computers and all the rest of it, than better, things are getting worse not better. O'BRIEN: Well the computer contract was signed in 1996 and quite honestly it was unrealistic and over-ambitious. We've now had to go back to the private sector company who negotiated that contract with the government, Siemans, and we've negotiated a new deal with them. They are due to have in place a new computer system by June of this year and they hope to have it fully operational by the start of next year. But the main problem with IND - the Immigration Department at the moment, is that we have just moved offices, the immigration officers were in appalling accommodation.. HUMPHRYS: That's nothing to do with the queues being long.. O'BRIEN: No it is, it's very much to do with the queues and it's to do with the sort of very long queues you saw outside Lunar House in that film. What we have actually done in January, February, and are still just completing at the moment, is a move from one set of offices to another and you know that always causes disruption and it is causing quite substantial disruption. HUMPHRYS: No consolation at all to the people having to queue outside to know that your lot are in nicer offices, or better offices. O'BRIEN: The Immigration Service were in some quite appalling offices and they weren't able to do their job properly. They needed computers to be installed. Okay, we've had problems and delays with the computer contractor we inherited but we're trying to sort our way through that and I think what I've got to say to the people who are queuing and making 'phone calls and so on, is that this department we inherited was in a mess, it is going to take time to sort it out, it is possible to do it. We have now in place a programme that I think can deliver that modernisation. HUMPHRYS: Because as Keith Vaz said in that film there, that if the flaws in the system are not sorted out, then the legislation is not going to be implemented. O'BRIEN: Keith was entirely right. It means that we've not only just got to put in place laws, and of course the Bill currently going through Parliament is only part of the process, we've set out a lot of changes in policy in the White Paper last July. But we've also got to reorganise the whole of that department, make sure they've got the people that are necessary to do the jobs. Make sure that we get a computer system that does actually work. We've also got to ensure that we've put in place the sort of resourcing and the sort of concentration and the ability to deliver our firm immigration controls that we have a commitment to in the manifesto. What we want to do is in a sense two things at once and we can reach that balance. We want a strong human rights policy in terms of asylum and we also want firm immigration controls. And I think it's quite possible to deliver both of those and we've set out how in the White Paper and the Bill. HUMPHRYS: You talk about being firmer than in the past and you're going to give people vouchers, you are giving people vouchers. Now that is causing them, as we saw in that film again, serious problems. We've seen in the Observer I think it is this morning, a report that Comic Relief is having to spend, or choosing to spend, eight hundred and fifty-five thousand pounds in the past two years to help these people. They say and I quote from them: 'It will force people, it is forcing people into destitution.' O'BRIEN: We have a commitment not to force anyone into destitution.. HUMPHRYS: That's what's happening... O'BRIEN: Well I don't accept quite the way that that report.. HUMPHRYS: Well you saw one man himself telling you the affect of it in practical terms. He has the voucher, he goes to the shop, he can't get the things he wants, he can't get the change from the voucher that he should have. It's a rotten way to live, there's no dignity in this. O'BRIEN: That is not the system that we are setting up, that is a local authority system. What we are setting up is a national system with a national agency... HUMPHRYS: Same thing though, the same affect. O'BRIEN: There will be vouchers but there won't be that sort of problem that he identified, that is unless you have exactly the right money you don't get any change. We are going to negotiate with the supermarkets how to overcome those problems. HUMPHRYS: But it will still be vouchers. O'BRIEN: There will be some vouchers, not all of the asylum seekers will be dealt with by vouchers. What will happen is that some of them will be in bed and breakfast accommodation where they will have their food and.. HUMPHRYS: Ah, but they won't have cash. O'BRIEN: They will have very little cash. They may need a small amount of cash for sundries but.. HUMPHRYS: Such as? I mean are we talking about a fiver a week? O'BRIEN: We're talking in that sort of range yes. But let me say this to you John. The genuine refugee that comes to this country, is looking for protection, we will provide it, he's looking for shelter, we will provide it, he's looking for food, we will provide it. He doesn't come for a Giro and we are not going to provide that. But this Bill that we are putting through parliament is good news for genuine refugees. Whereas before they have had to wait year after year as Keith Vaz and others said on your programme. They've had to wait years for a decision. We will make sure that these decisions are delivered within two months if they are genuine refugees, if they are rejected they will go into an appeal system and they will have their opportunity of being appealed, but if they are not accepted as genuine refugees, then we intend to actually remove them from the country. HUMPHRYS: Fine. O'BRIEN: That's not been happening in the past... HUMPHRYS: No-body would argue with that... O'BRIEN: So it's a combination of a strong human rights policy, recognising refugees quickly, but also firm immigration controls, getting rid of those people who have come into the country and abused the asylum system. The worst enemy of the genuine refugee is the abusive applicant for asylum who undermines public support for the asylum system. HUMPHRYS: You say two months, it's twenty-two months at the moment. There's a very very big gap there indeed. How soon are you going to get to two months. O'BRIEN: April 2001 is our target. HUMPHRYS: Is that doable? O'BRIEN: We think it is. We think if we can get through the legislation with the sort of provisions that we want, if we can make sure we get the extra resoursing in which is coming in April, if we can reorganise our immigration department, make sure there are enough Immigration Service officers, then we can deliver that. Yes, well you know, we've got a programme in place that I think can deliver all that, so those things can be done. It is - we have in place a system now that can deliver those firmer immigration controls that our manifesto...... HUMPHRYS: You see, you've already acknowledged that people do not come to this country for the cash, for the Giro as you put, so therefore it seems a little odd doesn't it to insist that they have no cash, or maybe a few pounds a week? O'BRIEN: Well, the genuine refugee of course, doesn't come for the cash, but I'm afraid we do have a lot of people who are trying to breach - I'll give it to you - there are a lot of people who are coming to breach our immigration controls, and they're making abusive claims for asylum in order to do so, and one of the things that they're seeking to access is the benefit system. Now the proof of that is that when the Conservatives removed benefits from asylum seekers who were applying in country in nineteen-sixty-six, the number who were applying in country dropped dramatically. What then happened was that they were applying at ports where they could access benefits, so there was clear evidence there. Now, I know that the Refugee Council have put some submission into the special standing committee which challenges that, but I've looked at that evidence and quite frankly I think it's a statistical sleight of hand. What we're saying quite clearly is that the evidence is there, it is very clear that some people were deliberately claiming benefits, and what's happened in the last year has been that we're getting more people coming in the back of lorries, more clandestine, so that they are then claiming in country and aren't able to access the benefit system so well. That why we have to bring in civil penalties for lorry drivers to stop them carrying emigres in the back of lorries. HUMPHRYS: So vouchers are intended to dissuade and presumably that's the thinking behind this dispersal process, sending people all over the country wherever there seems to be an empty house, whether or not they have the kind of support or people from their own country living in that area that makes life bearable. O'BRIEN: Well, we won't have the sort of system that puts asylum seekers on some of sink estate in the West Midlands. HUMPHRYS: Well, wherever there's a vacant house seems to be a proposal isn't it? O'BRIEN: No it isn't, no, the proposal has been set out clearly in the documents that we're now publishing is to put asylum seekers in clusters, that is that they will be in areas were there is some element of support for them, where there are other people of a similar ethnic group, where there are back up with support facilities. HUMPHRYS: But isn't that in the bill, because I mean it says, .....must consider availability of accommodation. O'BRIEN: No. All the bill does is set up the legal base, what we've set out in the White Paper and also in policy documents that we're publishing is the detail of how we will actually do that, and in fact what we are going to do in practise is to put people into cluster areas. HUMPHRYS: Well that's a pledge is it? ..... that is going to happen? O'BRIEN: We've said that repeatedly to refugee groups and to others, that many of the criticisms that they have put to us during the course of the consultation on this we've listened to very carefully and we're going to make sure that we don't have the sort of problems that Neil Gerard in your programme identified . |I agree with him that we mustn't create that sort of system, and we're going to create a system that does work. Now, what you've got to remember is that most genuine refugees will not be in this system very long, because we're speeding up the decision-making process so that they have their cases decided within ten months. HUMPHRYS: In that case, bearing in mind everything else you've just said, why not do what Diane Abbott said in our film, let them go where they want to, why not? O'BRIEN: Well, because some of the London boroughs including Diane Abbott's in Hackney are saying: Look we can't cope with the numbers, we haven't got the back-up facilities. HUMPHRYS: So you can help them in that case can't you. I mean why can't the Government help them to do that. O'BRIEN: Well, in fact we are, but they're still saying that we're over-burdening..... HUMPHRYS: ... the law .... O'BRIEN: In a sense London and the south-east has carried a national burden quite disproportionately and many other areas of the country haven't shared in that national burden. I don't think that's fair, I don't think that's reasonable. If Diane says to me that her constituents are able to deal with more asylum seekers in Hackney I'm quite happy to listen to Diane's representations and ensure that Hackney gets more asylum seekers if the local authority is able to support them, but I would say to Diane and to others who said London has had a heavy burden, and we've got to sort that out, we've got to make sure that that burden is carried in a way which helps the genuine refugees, makes sure that they settle not just in London but across the country, so that what is a national issue for us, having a strong human rights policy that helps genuine refugees, but also ensuring that we don't have that human rights policy, that asylum system abused by lots of abusive applicants as we are now that that is sorted out on a national basis and we intend to insure we do that. HUMPHRYS: Michael O'Brien, thanks very much indeed. O'BRIEN: Thank you. HUMPHRYS: And that's it for this week. Until the same time next week, good-afternoon. FoLdEd