................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MARTIN MCGUINNESS INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.1.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Last week the Northern Ireland talks got going again with something concrete to talk about: a new blueprint agreed between London and Dublin which spelled out how Northern Ireland might be governed for the years ahead. There'd be an assembly in Belfast; a new Ministerial Council made up of politicians from North and South and yet another body which would include representatives from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The Unionists have broadly welcomed it all. But Sinn Fein's Chief Negotiator Martin McGuinness has said it's a "serious mistake". Mr McGuinness is in our Londonderry studio. Good Afternoon, to you. MARTIN MCGUINNESS MP: Good Afternoon, John. HUMPHRYS: A question first, if I may about the story that's in the news this morning: the former Ambassador - American Ambassador to London, Raymond Seitz - has said that secret information that used to get passed between London and Washington was, then, relayed by Washington back to the IRA - so, they stopped telling Washington what was going on. Were you getting lots of secret information from the Americans? MCGUINNESS: Well, Sinn Fein certainly wasn't but I think I'm very saddened that the former Ambassador has chosen to make what, I think, effectively amounts to a very negative contribution at such a critical time in the course of Irish history. HUMPHRYS: Well, he's done it because he thinks what was happening was very wrong. MCGUINNESS: Yeah, well, I think that in the overall,
many people who are well disposed towards the search for a peace settlement in Ireland will welcome the fact that President Clinton and Jean Kennedy-Smith and people like that were prepared to make positive contributions and to recognise that in order to have any hope whatsoever of bringing about a peace settlement, then it had to be an all-inclusive negotiating process without preconditions. HUMPHRYS: So, they did pass on information? MCGUINNESS: No. I have no information about that at all. I think, that this man is, obviously, selling his book and this makes a good news story and I don't think that we should be preoccupied by what he has to say at this time. HUMPHRYS: Right. Let's turn to this blueprint which was agreed between London and Dublin and that you have rejected now. You're going to the talks tomorrow morning as I understand it. I'm not quite sure what you're going to be talking about, if not that blueprint. MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, that first of all we've got to put this in context and it's very important for people in Britain to understand that this or these propositions, heads of agreement were presented to the talks table from the barrel of Unionist and Loyalist guns. Over the course of the last four weeks, four Catholics have been killed by Loyalist death squads. Up to a dozen have been wounded. Over the Christmas period, we have had all sorts of threats from the Unionist Parties and from the Loyalist Parties to withdraw from the talks. And, effectively, I think, many people within the Nationalist community believe that both Governments have succumbed to the Orange card. I can tell you, I think, without fear of contradiction, that these proposals have not been well-received within the Nationalist community - there's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration. That said, I think that it's important for us to be calm, to be reflective. Sinn Fein will go to the talks and we will go there to challenge what we believe is a very serious mistake. HUMPHRYS: Right, well, 'challenge'. In other words, you will negotiate on those heads of agreement, will you? You're not saying: we'll have absolutely nothing to do with it, won't talk about them
and, in fact, if they do want to talk about it we'll walk out. What you're saying is: we will talk about them. We will negotiate on them. MCGUINNESS: No. We will go to the talks and we will make it quite clear to all of the participants - as has been made clear to many of us over the course of recent years by both the British and the Irish Government and many other participants in the talks - that there can be no internal settlement. HUMPHRYS: Right but have you made that clear? I mean, could I just stick with this point, for a moment? Having made that clear and they say: well, sorry, that's the deal on the table or, at least, that is the blueprint for heads of agreement that we're going to discuss. Then, what do you do? Do you stay at the talks and discuss them? Or, do you walk out? MCGUINNESS: Well, I think, we'll cross that hurdle when we come to it. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, but you're coming to it tomorrow! MCGUINNESS: Well, John, if you'll give me a chance to answer. I think, what we have to do now over the course of either coming days or weeks is to establish exactly what the position is from both the Irish and the British Government, in relation to all of this. And, there will be a need for Sinn Fein to be involved in discussions with both governments, on a very serious basis of establishing what exactly all of this means, Sinn Fein isn't going to be involved in knee-jerk reactions. But, what we want is a meaningful, negotiating process and what we want is people to face up to the reality that threats of violence and actual threats have been used to affect the outcome of the negotiations. In fact, the Mitchell Principles have been thrown out to wander by all of the participants in the talks. It seems to me that the only armed group which is on ceasefire at the moment is the IRA. HUMPHRYS: Ah, but I mean you say all the participants, indeed. I mean Dublin has gone along. It's a joint agreement between..yeah a joint agreement between London and Dublin that has produced this. If London and if Dublin, in particular - your friends are impressed with it and want this to be discussed, want this to be the basis for negotiation, why can't you go along with it? MCGUINNESS: Well I think it's very important to recognise what this is. It isn't a joint agreement, it's a joint proposition. HUMPHRYS: No, no, as you say it's a blueprint. MCGUINNESS: It's a joint proposition and I think that by this stage, as we speak, I think, both the British and the Irish governments, won't be well aware that this particular plan has gone down like a lead balloon within the Nationalist community, not just within the Sinn Fein constituency but right across the Nationalist community. These plans have been rejected by people who are very frustrated and angry. HUMPHRYS: But, what, what bit of it in particular do you not like, because there are lots of bits of it that you might be expected to approve of, as Dublin already does? MCGUINNESS: Well I think first of all what you have to remember is that these proposition heads of agreement have effectively, at this stage, told all of the participants that there is, for example, going to be an assembly in the North. That there is going to be a Council of the Isles. Now, all of that- HUMPHRYS: It's going to be twice a year. MCGUINNESS: All of that, John, without one word of peace negotiations; all of that against the background of the persistent refusal of the Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, one of the major Parties in the talks, to speak to the Sinn Fein representatives another major Party within the talks. Therefore, all of us need to understand that there will be no meaningful negotiations if people are not prepared to engage in a realistic way with one another. HUMPHRYS: But this is what is happening. MCGUINNESS: And this will dramatically reduce I think, the prospects of a peace settlement. HUMPHRYS: But there are talks going on in the bits you missed out. You mentioned two of the bodies, you didn't mention the third which is this sort of North-South Council which will, according to the Irish Prime Minister, have executive responsibilities. That's something that you wanted - you wanted that! MCGUINNESS: I haven't heard the British Prime Minister say that. In fact I've heard David Trimble say the opposite. I've heard David Trimble say that he is quite pleased with the outcome of the proposition heads of agreement. Obviously within the Nationalist community people are watching all of this very, very carefully indeed and I think people have come to the conclusion that what they have seen is a major retreat by both governments from previously stated positions. Some of these positions are not positions that I would be fully happy with but the reality is that we are actually seeing here both governments withdraw from what was described to many people as international documents over the course of the last thirteen or fourteen years. HUMPHRYS: Well, well given that the IRA is apparently going to meet within the next few weeks to review the ceasefire, would your advice - and I know you're going to tell me that we're not part of the IRA, I know that so save a bit of time - would your advice to them be:carry on with that ceasefire; on no account go back to the gun. MCGUINNESS: Well, I'm always very sceptical about these reports, particularly emanating from the British media as to what the IRA will and will not do. HUMPHRYS: Well, what would your advice be to them? Put that aside, what would your advice be to them? MCGUINNESS: What I'll have to say to you is that let's put all of this in context. The IRA are on ceasefire, the IRA are the only armed group to have kept that ceasefire. HUMPHRYS: And should they continue to keep it? MCGUINNESS: And we have - sorry John - but we have seen the situation over the course of recent months - where people who are participants in the talks process, their armed groups have been killing Catholics on the outside. We have had no demilitarisation whatsoever from the British government. We've seen the Nationalist community been attacked by the Loyalists and by the British over the course of recent months and I think that many people seeing this - production of this document - against that background, people need to be aware of the very great anger that is within the Nationalist community as to what has happened here. HUMPHRYS: Sorry, we've run out of time. If you could give me a Yes or No. Will you tell them they should keep the ceasefire going? MCGUINNESS: Well what I'll tell you about that is that I am a Sinn Fein politician, absolutely committed to the search for peace. I want peace. HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, thank you very much indeed. MCGUINNESS: Thank you. ...oooOooo....