................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MARTIN MCGUINNESS INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 15.2.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: And let us now go to Dublin and Martin McGuinness, Chief Negotiator for Sinn Fein. I hope you heard that, Mr McGuinness? Are you prepared to do that? Whoever carried out those murders, to disown and disavow them? MARTIN MCGUINNESS MP: Well, my Party Leader, yesterday, issued a statement stating quite clearly that he disavowed - and has worked for it over quite a period of years an end to - all killings in the North of Ireland. And, of course, I completely disavow all killings. Gerry Adams and I have been involved over quite a number of years in working with John Hume, with Irish Governments and some people within British Governments to try to bring about an inclusive and meaningful negotiating process, conducted against the background of a peaceful atmosphere and it is our dearest wish - that we can bring these peace negotiations to a fruitful conclusion, which will give us the justice and the equality which has been denied to us since the foundation of the Northern state. HUMPHRYS: Let me just pursue that a little. You didn't use the word 'disown' there but can I assume that from that answer that if it is shown that those killings were carried out by the IRA, you would disown the IRA? MCGUINNESS: Listen, let's not speculate about who's- HUMPHRYS: No, no! I'm not asking you to speculate. MCGUINNESS: Yeah, but I think- HUMPHRYS: But, I think, that's a straightforward answer. If you believe in the peace process - in the way that you say that you do - if you totally disavow and disown killings, you would, surely, disavow and disown whoever carried out those murders last week - that's straightforward? MCGUINNESS: Well, we have stated our position on that and I..- HUMPHRYS: But, I don't believe you have, you see. I'm not clear on what it is. MCGUINNESS: Well, if you would let me speak, I may be able to give you an answer. We have stated, quite categorically, that we completely disavow all killings carried out by anyone over the course of this peace process and we're working to bring about a peace settlement which will bring us to a just and fair and honest conclusion. One of the big difficulties about this process, John, is that we have a situation where some of the people most vocal looking for the exclusion of Sinn Fein from the talks are people who within the talks have never even had a civilised discussion with us about how we resolve conflict on the island of Ireland. The Ulster Unionist Leader, David Trimble, has led the charge in attempting to have Sinn Fein expelled from the talks and, of course, he does so because he knows that Sinn Fein is at the forefront of identifying the issues of inequality, injustice, discrimination and domination, which has been inflicted on the Nationalist people since the foundation of the northern state. There is no justification, WHATSOEVER, for anyone even considering putting Sinn Fein out of these talks tomorrow. Sinn Fein has not broken the Mitchell Principles; we are not, in spite of what you have said, linked to any paramilitary group. We're a political Party in our own right; we've put ourselves before the people. We have got substantial and growing support within the community that we come from. We're now the third largest political Party in the North and, of course, we have seen, over the course of the last twenty months a situation where Loyalist death squads have shot some one hundred people and, of course, intensively over the course of the Christmas and January period, we've seen twenty-five Nationalists shot - nine of whom are dead - and we've seen a situation where the Chief Constable of the RUC and the British Secretary of State appear to be adopting a very selective approach as to the killing of Unionists, compared to the killing of Catholics. HUMPHRYS: If, as you say, you are not linked with any paramilitary group, you should have no problem, whatsoever, in saying to me this morning: I, Martin McGuinness - if the IRA carried out those murders last week - disown them - absolutely no problem at all. MCGUINNESS: Well, you see, what you're trying to do is focus all of this on the IRA. HUMPHRYS: Well! I'm merely following- MCGUINNESS: I-No- HUMPHRYS: -up what you said there, Mr McGuinness. MCGUINNESS: No. HUMPHRYS: It is absolute- People listening to this programme are going to be hugely puzzled by this. You say on one hand we should disavow killings- MCGUINNESS: They should not be puzzled. HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm puzzled. MCGUINNESS: Well. HUMPHRYS: And, therefore, I assume one or two people might be as well. Why can you not say: if you disavow the whole lot, all the killings; indeed, if it were the IRA, then, I disown them if they did those killins. MCGUINNESS: Because, John- HUMPHRYS: Then, you could stay in the talks, perhaps. MCGUINNESS: Because, John, implicit in your question is an assertion that the IRA were responsible for the two killings which took place in Belfast. HUMPHRYS: It is, at least, a possiblity, isn't it? MCGUINNESS: Well, implicit in your suggestion is that it was the IRA and the IRA only. And, I think, the serious mistake that you're making is that you're actually contributing to the media hype which has resulted, I believe, from elements within the RUC, who have been attempting over the course of the last week to put up, if you like, a suggestion that Sinn Fein should be expelled from the talks on the word of the Chief Constable of the RUC alone. HUMPHRYS: But, it wouldn't matter whether the Chief Constable was right or wrong. For you to say whoever did it, whoever did it - even if it was the IRA - I would disown them. Where's the problem? MCGUINNESS: Well, there is no problem. The problem is this here is that I'm not going to play your game. HUMPHRYS: Alright! MCGUINNESS: You have attempted to imply by your question that the IRA were responsible. HUMPHRYS: No, I'm trying to find out what your position is here and I've failed, so we can move on. MCGUINNESS: I am-No, John, I am not going to play that game. I am going to ask you to focus on the reality of what has happened within these peace negotiations over the course of the last twenty months. Let me, for example, raise the fact that in May of last year when Sinn Fein wasn't involved in the talks and the negotiations, we had a situation where the Chief Constable of the RUC stated in a BBC interview that as far as he was concerned every element of the combined Loyalist military command, that is the UVF, the UFF, the UDA and the Red Hand Commando had broken their ceasefires. That was in May and that was after this British Government took power in London. And, many people within my community are asking what did the British Secrtary of State do about that? What did she do about the fact that Catholics were being killed by Loyalist death squads? HUMPHRYS: Well, ultimately, the UDA were excluded from the talks. MCGUINNESS: I'll give you the answer. No, let me give you the answer John. The British Secretary of State didn't do anything about that. A blind eye was turned to it for expedient reasons and now we've seen a situation where since that time, May of last year, dozens and dozens of Catholics have been shot by the Loyalist death squads. Ten of them are dead over the Christmas and the New Year period. HUMPHRYS: You've said that. MCGUINNESS: Yes I know I've said that... HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's try and move on a bit. MCGUINNESS: I think it's very important for you to understand that the lives of Catholics, the lives of the people we represent are very, very important. HUMPHRYS: Well nobody can dispute that for a second, everybody's life is important isn't it. MCGUINNESS: ...British Government or the RUC to treat them as second class citizens in death and that is what's happening as a result of the attitude. The very selective attitude that the British Government and tne RUC have taken to these killings. HUMPHRYS: Given that you are excluded from these talks. I know you will say that you don't believe that you should be and you will fight that. But given that you are, would you then seek to come back into the talks in the way that the UDP is going to come back into the talks, we gather at the end of February. Would you say, alright if we're out, at least we will come back in. MCGUINNESS: Well first of all, I don't believe that there is a sliver of evidence - HUMPHRYS: No, you've made that point. MCGUINNESS: Yes but let me make this point again - to connect Sinn Fein to these killings. And Seamus Mallon said rightly in his interview at Dublin Castle tomorrow we will be seeking to get the British Secretary of State to put on the table the evidence, the evidence, not the assessment of the RUC Chief Constable, a traditional enemy of Irish Republicanism, we will be expecting the evidence. Now, let me tell you I don't expect that we will be excluded from these talks. Certainly there are people who are attempting to do that. HUMPHRYS: But if you are, if they are successful and if you are then what happens, are you going to want to come back in again? MCGUINNESS: Well I mean our position on the need for inclusive and meaningful negotiations to resolve the conflict is absolute. We still have a peace strategy and people like Gerry Adams and myself will remain absolutely dedicated and committed to the search for peace on this island, there's no mistake about it. The big difficulty, the big difficulty about this John, is that you could actually have circumstances develop on the ground with the removal of Sinn Fein from the talks if that happens. HUMPHRYS: You mean the IRA might go back to killing? MCGUINNESS: No I'm not saying that. Any number of conspiracies could take place which would prevent Sinn Fein's move back up to those negotiations. HUMPHRYS: So the ceasefire might break down. Is that what you are suggesting may happen. MCGUINNESS: Let me tell you what I am talking about. A number of weeks ago someone placed a car bomb in Banbridge County Down. The RUC fed to the Ulster Unionist Party, a story that the IRA were involved in that bomb. Anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of the situation in the North of Ireland knew that that was a total and absolute fabrication. Now, we could conceivably have a situation where people out there who are looking to destroy the Talks Process and any hope for a negotiated settlement could conspire to create circumstances which will make it impossible for Sinn Fein to get back into these talks. This is a very dangerous, a very serious, a very grave situation. We are seeking to avoid that, I believe the only way that it can be avoided is by the British Government facing up to the reality that it has no case whatsoever to exclude Sinn Fein from these talks. Sinn Fein have not demonstrably dishonoured the Mitchell Principles. We have fought long and hard for many years to bring about a negotiating process which is inclusive, which is real, which is meaningful. We are the initiators of this peace process. We haven't come into this process to run away when it comes to the hard edge of negotiations from the prospect of a negotiated settlement. HUMPHRYS: Can I put to you something else which is being reported today and that is that Gerry Adams is going to go to the United States again, that's to say he is going to try to get a visa to go to the United States again in the next few weeks. Is that right? Do you want to go back to the United States, do you want to see Mr Clinton? MCGUINNESS: No, our focus John is in what is happening here in Ireland. HUMPHRYS: I know but in addition to that, are you wanting to go back to the United States and are you going to be, is Gerry Adams going to be seeking a visa? MCGUINNESS: No, as we speak at this moment in time, our preoccupation is with the situation here and whether or not we can see a situation as identified by Seamus Mallon, where both governments face up to the reality that this business of castle buildings and Lancaster House, people getting up on their soap box and stating their party political position, has to come to an end and has to come to an end soon. And the focus now must be on a process which is led by the two governments, into real and substantive and meaningful negotiations to bring about a negotiated settlement. If you like, in many ways the test now is a test of the will and resolve of both governments to bring about a settlement we've seen thus far in the negotiations. That the last thing the Ulster Unionists want to do is to enter into any real engagement with Sinn Fein and how we bring about a negotiated settlement. They've done everything in their power to prevent that, they're now trying to get Sinn Fein thrown out of the talks, with support from their traditional allies in the RUC and I think now what we have to do is see whether or not the two governments have got the strength to stand up to this bullying and intimidation. MCGUINNESS: Martin McGuinness, in Dublin, many thanks. ...oooOooo...