................................................................................ ON THE RECORD JOHN HUME INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 5.4.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Let's talk now to two of the leaders of the key Parties involved in these talks. First John Hume, who is in Dublin, leader of the SDLP. Good afternoon to you Mr Hume. JOHN HUME MP: Good afternoon. HUMPHRYS: You were as responsible as anyone for getting this whole show on the road, right in the very first place and what you envisaged was a settlement that would involve all the Parties, a full and final settlement that would involve all the Parties. Do you, at this stage, with five days to go, still believe that to be possible? HUME: Well, of course it's still possible. In fact the very fact that we have both Governments and all Parties together in the same building, is in itself major progress. And that all are committed to reach an agreement where the final endorsement will be with the people. So there's no question of any imposed settlements. There are, obviously, still major differences between us but we're all working very hard and very positively. We've had a number of positive meetings with the Unionist Party during the week. We're all working hard and positively to try and resolve those differences so that by the target date, Thursday, we will reach that agreement. And we very much welcome the fact that a target date was set by the Chairman Senator George Mitchell, because that has finally focused the minds of all Parties and the Governments on real negotiations. HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, let's go to the first of those differences, the major differences that you describe. One of them, of course, is Dublin's claim to the North of Ireland - Articles Two and Three of their constitution. Now, Sinn Fein is adamantly opposed to Dublin saying we will abandon that eventually, we'll just drop it! So in that case, how are you going to get round that? HUME: Well of course as we have said repeatedly from the beginning of this in the SDLP there are three sets of relationships at the heart of our problem and therefore everything in relation to those relationships is on the table for discussion. And our hope and view is that proposals will emerge on all three, that would, as I say, relate to the new situation and a new resolution of our problems. So all those are under examination. HUMPHRYS: But very hard at this stage to see how that's going to be reconciled isn't it? HUME: Well that's a task that faces us. If we didn't have, as I often say, if we didn't have such divisions we wouldn't have to be sitting round a table. HUMPHRYS: But the problem is Dublin hasn't come up with the form of words that will satisfy the others, have they? HUME: Well let's wait and see. In the coming days there's been very intensive dialogue in the past number of days between Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, and of course that in itself is major progress. That such energies, at the highest level of Government, is being devoted to resolving this problem. That's something that should have been happening from over twenty years ago but hasn't been happening. But we very much welcome the fact that both Prime Ministers are putting such energy into it and that, in itself, is extremely positive and we will be getting the outcome of their talks, presumably, in the near future as well as the dialogue that is going on in Stormont itself. HUMPHRYS: And do you believe that there is a form of words there, that's likely to come out of Dublin, that's acceptable to you on that? HUME: Well I certainly believe that that's an area where we can be positive about because when you look at the question of sovereignty. I mean in the past, sovereignty has been about either Royalty, Kings and Queens, or about territory. And of course, I think when the history of the world is written, that will go down as one of the worst periods in the history of the world because those are the concepts of sovereignty that led to both Imperialism and two World Wars. Real sovereignty is people. Without people any piece of earth, as I often say, is only a jungle and real sovereignty is about people. And in our situation, our people are divided and the task is to put both agreement among our people and by working together, by creating institutions which get us working together in our common interests, to break down those barriers that divide us and create a whole new Ireland. HUMPHRYS: So there might very well be a form of words acceptable. HUME: Based on agreement. HUMPHRYS: Indeed, there might very well be a form of words acceptable to you. But, is there going to be a form of words acceptable to Sinn Fein? That's the key, that's the crucial question isn't it? HUME: I think that the question not just of this matter - you're talking about Articles Two and Three - but the whole agreement -whatever is in the whole agreement will have to be acceptable to the vast majority of the people of Ireland, north and south, and that in itself is also an extremely valuable approach that for the first time ever if we get an agreement we will have an agreement on our relationships in this island endorsed by the people of this island North and South and that is the final word is with the people. HUMPHRYS: But before we get to that stage, before we get to the stage of the Referendum, are you saying that this agreement - whatever it turns out to be, and let's think about Articles 2 and 3 for the moment since we're talking about that has to be acceptable to Sinn Fein as well. They have to come on board for you to approve this agreement yourself. HUME: Well, our view is, as Mark Durkan said earlier in this programme, and our view throughout has been that we want to see, first of all we want to see all- we have wanted to see all Parties at the table and we work to bring that about. Therefore we want to see-we would like to see an agreement that is endorsed by all Parties. But at the end of the day - and that all Parties are involved in creating that agreement - but at the end of the day, as I said, no matter who endorses the agreement that emerges, the final endorsement will be with the people. But our approach is to, as we described it, totally inclusive, to try and have all Parties included in the agreement and in support for it. HUMPHRYS: Right, so in other words you would- on behalf of the SDLP you would be prepared to sign up and leave it to the people of Northern Ireland, whatever Sinn Fein decides to do. HUME: Well, you see, what we're into now and the timing of your question of that nature is Party politics. HUMPHRYS: It's crucial, isn't it? HUME: Sorry, yes, but just hold on. That's not what we're at in these talks. The purpose of these talks is to create lasting peace and stability in our country and the way to do that is to create
an approach that will have the endorsement of all sections of our people and that will respect the diversity of our people and that's what we're working at and if we start getting into Party political arguments or if we'd been doing it throughout the last two years we wouldn't have made any progress of any description. HUMPHRYS: No, but the reason why I say this is absolutely vital is that you surely could not allow any Party- HUME: Well let's wait and see. Well, let's wait and see. HUMPHRYS: Well let me finish the question, if I may, Mr Hume. HUME: Yeah. HUMPHRYS: You couldn't, surely, allow any Party to these talks, whoever they may be - Sinn Fein or anybody else - to exercise a veto over an ultimate agreement because in your view what matters above all else is that there be an agreement that can be put to the people of Northern Ireland. HUME: Absolutely. We're not in the business of vetos, we're in the business of reaching agreement. And of course at the end of the day, given the nature of our society, each section of our community has a veto. I mean that's a negative way of looking at it and for too often, you know, these sort of vetos have been used. What we want to do is create a society where people are working positively together and building together and by doing that to break down the barriers of prejudice and distrust that are at the heart of our real problem. HUMPHRYS: So if Sinn Fein don't agree your reaction - don't sign up - your reaction to that would be: that is a great shame but nonetheless we will go ahead. HUME: Let us wait and see what agreement emerges, if an agreement emerges, and let's hope it does. And if it's an agreement that we fully support - the SDLP - we will be asking the people to fully support it. But we are working for an agreement that will involve all the Parties of the talks giving their endorsement to it. HUMPHRYS: John Hume, thank you very much indeed and let's now go north to Belfast. ...oooOooo...