................................................................................ ON THE RECORD LORD HOLME INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.3.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well, Lord Holme, a little bit of evidence there that you made a mistake in sailing too close, cuddling up to much with the Labour Party. Not paying off is it? LORD HOLME: The thing I was most struck about in that film was the local Tory MP clutching at the straw of "oh well, maybe people will go to Labour in order to save his skin. I think in fact the truth is that people in places like Somerton and Frome have a very good handle on who the challenger is. They know it's us, and they know it needs a tiny swing for us to win the seat, and I think when the day comes as has happened at previous elections, a lot of people will want to cast an effective vote, the most effective vote they can, to do what they want to achieve. HUMPHRYS: And on the other hand they may say: Look, there's no point in voting Liberal-Democrat is it, because you're so close to the Labour Party now, you're so hugger-mugger that might as well vote Labour. HOLME: Well, most of the newspapers I read say that the problem with the comming election is that the Conservative and Labour parties have become so close together on policy, I think as you were pointing out to Mr Heseltine earlier, whereas the Liberal-Democrats have a very distinct position including investing in education as the film says. HUMPHRYS: But here's the difference. The Conservative Party and the Labour Party aren't talking to each other, at least one side isn't saying to the other side: well, we might even merge after the election. HOLME: Well, that was - I think you're referring to something Roy Jenkins .... HUMPHRYS: I'm referring to Lord Jenkins, who is your leader in the House of Lords, and he's says quite bluntly...we might even get together, we might merge. HOLME: Indeed he's my leader in the House of Lords... HUMPHRYS: Precisely. HOLME: So I am extremely careful what I say, but I've never known Roy Jenkins to be less than interesting in his pronouncements. I think he was responding to a question at a meeting, and of course, it's not remotely on the agenda that we will merge with Labour. I think it's really quite unlikely that we'll have a coalition with Labour after the election because you're talking about two different parties with distinct positions. What I think is true is that we've been talking about constitutional reform. Personally, I wish the Tories had joined those talks. I think it's something that affects the public interest, but we are talking about that yes. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's pick off each one of those if I may then. First of all the question of merger. If it's not remotely on the agenda why did Lord Jenkins say it was, and are you saying that it's not remotely on the agenda at the moment but it might be at some time in the future? HOLME: Well, I think Lord Jenkins was, in response to a question, was saying that he didn't exclude it if the two parties came to agree. If the two parties agreed about everything then, clearly it would be a waste of time, but you know, one of the reasons the Liberal-
Democrats are so enthusiastic for fair voting, is that it would actually give people more choice, rather than reducing choice to Band A and Brand B. We actually want people to have more choice. So if you ask me a) do I think it's probable that the day will come when Liberal-Democrats and Labour agree on everything, I think it's extremely improbable, and b) I'd much rather have a political system where you had people who are Liberals, people who are Socialists, people who are Conservative competing, and I think that would be far healthier for our democracy. HUMPHRYS: Well. I won't ask you if you think it's probable then, since you've already answered that. I'll ask you if it's possible. HOLME: Well noboby can exclude anything in politics, but it's certainly not on the agenda now. HUMPHRYS: I can imagine that the Labour Party would exclude a merger with the Conservative Party for instance. HOLME: Yes, and certainly sitting here today approaching this crucial election, when we're fighting on a very different platform from Labour, I absolutely exclude any possibility of a merger with the Labour Party as being on the agenda now, or for any foreseeable future that I can see. HUMPHRYS: Alright. So you are not in agreement with your leader in the Lords on that. Let's turn to coalition, what about that. Coalition with the Labour Party after the election? HOLME: Well, people often ask us that, and my instinct is to say: why don't you ask Mr Blair the same question, and the reason I say that is this. We've got extremely clear policies at this election. I think you know what they are, I won't bore you and your viewers by reciting them, except we are determined to invest in education, we do want to get the environment at the centre of policies, we want honesty in taxation instead of this ridiculous dissimulation, and we want constitutional reform. That's what we're fighting on. Now, given that, the real question for all parties, is: could you agree on all or any of that? There are signs on constitutional reform that we may be able to agree on some of that. The most likely scenario therefore after an election which I firmly expect the Conservative Party to lose, the most realistic scenario after that election is that there'll be specific measures on which we might be able to find inter-party co-operation, and if that were so I think most people like that. why oppose for the sake of opposing? HUMPHRYS: Because you have been talking for many months now to the Labour Party about constitutional reform. We're going to get a statement I gather, later this week, which says you have reached a measure of agreement that there is going be some sort of commission, electoral commission set up, will report back within a year. Now are you committed to accepting the findings of that commission? HOLME: Well I don't absolutely know, I don't have quite the level of confidence that you do because these talks are still going on. But let's agree for the sake of a useful discussion that it does seem very likely that there will be agreement sometime in the next few days or weeks. I think, personally, that the idea of a commission to identify a fair voting system that could then be put on a referendum, I think it's a very good idea. I think it's a constructive proposal to come out with. HUMPHRYS: And would that commission be sort of mandatory, will its findings be sort of binding upon the parties involved. HOLME: Well I imagine if it were set up in consultation between two parties and the new Government were committed to it that we would certainly accept it. HUMPHRYS: Even if it offered less than say for instance the single transferable vote that you might rather like. HOLME: Well I hate these discussions of electoral systems being about systems, what do we all want - what does everybody want - what would everybody like. Even a lot of Conservative supporters of electoral reform would like something that had local representation, that had a choice for the voters, as I was saying earlier, a proper choice. And they'd like something that really put the voters more in charge of the machine as well as producing proportionality between parties. Now there are a number of ways of doing that. I think if a commission can come up with one that commands the broadest possible consensus, achieves those objectives, then in my view Liberal Democrats, like Labour supporters, like a lot of Conservative supporters will be very happy with that. HUMPHRYS: So you yourself, as far as you are concerned, would be happy to accept something that fell short of what you, if you were to draw up a list today, what you wanted today, you would accept something along those lines. HOLME: I would have to say categorially there's no such thing as a perfect electoral system. We don't have one now and a change won't mean a perfect on. What we want to do is get one that's much better and certainly I think we would be very pragmatic about that. HUMPHRYS: But look at the problem that you've got here in terms of the forthcoming Election. Here you are talking, very sensibly in your terms, in a very grown up way in London, some people would use the prerogative and say cosying up with the Labour Party. Down there, out in the real world were people are bashing on the door knockers, the Labour Party is trying to annihilate you, quite rightly, because that's what Elections are all about. And they're having...your people are having the ground cut from under their feet aren't they, because they don't know how to deal with this. HOLME: Well..of course we saw the Labour candidate for Somerton and Frome who would obviously put on a good fight, I would expect nothing else of him, but you notice that he said of policies that the Liberal Democrats were now committed to, I think he meant investing in education if necessary putting a penny on the tax to do it and there is the Labour Party attacking us to do something which I will say categorically seventy, eighty per cent of Labour supporters agree with. So when Labour supporters go to the poll in Somerton and Frome, it's really a double whammy for them because not only can they, as I'm sure a lot of them want to do, get the Conservative out, but they can also put pressure on let's say it's an incoming Labour Government to get the sort of policies that people in this country need and actually want. And I think, therefore, far from it squeezing us and marginalising us we're actually in rather better shape, in these sorts of seats, than we were at previous Elections. HUMPHRYS: The Labour Party thinks they can do it on their own, they don't need you. HOLME: Do what? HUMPHRYS: It - win. HOLME: Well, we shall have to see, that's up to the electorate but what we're fighting for is to get as many Liberal Democrat votes in as many seats as we can and to win as many seats as we can. So the sort of policies that we stand for, we have more clout, more leverage, more ability to get them into affect. I think people understand that. HUMPHRYS: But it's slightly demeaning in a sense isn't it to have your Chairman going on television, Chairman down there going on television and actually saying, look, to the Labour supporters - lend us your vote please 'cause, you know, that way it will help us, you can have it back later but just for now, lend us your vote. What are we talking about here. HOLME: Gosh if you think that's demeaning John you should have been a fly on the wall at the Wirral by-Election last week when there were banks and banks and banks of Labour telephone canvassers saying exactly that to Liberal Democrat voters. HUMPHRYS: Lend us your vote. HOLME: Not I may say, quite as successfully because the Liberal Democrat vote held up very well there. HUMPHRYS: Yes, yes you came third but I mean there we are. It held up reasonably well. HOLME: Whereas, of course, you'll recall at Newbury and Christchurch the Labour vote almost disappeared and that is the way, in some of these West country seats, the Labour vote at the end of the day people will want to cast what I would call, not a tactical vote, an effective vote. And if what matters most to them is to vote for a Socialist then they'll vote for a Socialist but if what really matters to them is to defeat in Somerton and Frome the Tory MP then I think they'll arrive pretty rapidly at the fact that it needs a very small swing indeed for the Liberal Democrats to win that seat. HUMPHRYS: And that's the thing isn't it in a sense, your entire strategy has been based on targeting those seats where - the limited number of seats, where you are second to the Tories, where you think or where you thought, Labour had no chance and Labour might then kind of ease off and let you go ahead and take those seats away from the Tories. That's now blowing up in your face isn't it because Labour clearly aren't prepared to play that game. HOLME: Well in fact the regional press officer for the Labour Party in the West country has said that they have no target seats in Somerset, so despite the brave whistling of the local candidate, I don't think it is a high priority area for Labour but what I would say is this that all over the country what people are yearning to do is to cast an effective vote if they like our policies, if there's a place where they see that we are winners, then I think they are going to vote for us. HUMPHRYS: But they want to vote for the winning party don't they. HOLME: Well they'll want to vote for a winning party that will make a difference and that's what we are trying to do. HUMPHRYS: But look, the only way you can recover now, the only way you can do what you're setting out to do is to distance yourself from Labour isn't it, and to say look, we stand for something completely different, forget about talks in London, forget about all that, we are distinct from the Labour Party and we will fight them tooth and nail in this coming Election, not this kind cosy arrangement that we've had. HOLME: Well I would guess that if you were to do a poll that asks the following questions: do you think the Conservatives should go away and lie down in a dark room? - seventy per cent of the country would say yes. If you said are you suspicious of a potential Labour Government? - seventy per cent would say yes. That's our opportunity - elect enough Liberal Democrats and you really will make a difference to the outcome. HUMPHRYS: Lord Hume, thank you very much indeed. Lord Holme, thank you very much - I'm going back a little while aren't I there. ...oooOooo...