................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MICHAEL HESELTINE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 15.6.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the battle for the leadership of the Conservative Party. If the first round proved anything, it was that MOST MPs in the party are sceptical on Europe. That's why Ken Clarke probably won't win even though he got most votes first time around. What does THAT mean for the future of the party? There have been suggestions this weekend that if William Hague wins, PRO-European Tory MPs will feel like exiles in their own party. Michael Heseltine has been their uncrowned king for many years and he is Mr Clarke's most prominent supporter. I spoke to him earlier this morning and I asked him whether if the Tory Party isn't a broad church it can survive? MICHAEL HESELTINE: Well, unless the Conservative Party survives as a broad church, it doesn't survive. There is no way in which we will win a General Election unless we remember that historically, we've always done that, appealing to a wide constituency across the whole of the United Kingdom and that, traditionally, has been the appeal of the Conservative Party. The idea that you can retreat into some small corner, however heady the intellectual mix may be in such a corner and then win a mandate from the British people I think is fanciful and this I think is the essence of what I hope my colleagues in the Election on Tuesday, and possibly thereafter, will remember. Today's atmosphere, the atmosphere of defeat and the feeling of despondency is not the atmosphere in which we will fight the next election. The issues are not yet clear, the mood is not clear, the background is not clear, so one wants to remain flexible, light on one's feet. We're into a guerrilla war for the time being. HUMPHRYS: So does it worry you that that broad church may be threatened by some of the things that some of those candidates - Mr Hague and Mr Redwood in particular obviously - have been saying? HESELTINE: Well John, I've always in these election contests - I've had a little bit of experience of them - I try to concentrate on the positive arguments for the particular candidate that I support and I avoid what often can be damaging and personally aggravating, the criticisms of other candidates, so I won't be drawn onto what broadly could be called knocking copies, the journalists watching this programme 'put their pens down at this stage' because without the knocking copy they're not going to get any stories. I'm interested in why Ken Clarke should be the leader. I think he has the experience, I think he has the maturity, I think he has the track record. Now okay, none of us win a hundred per cent on all the score cards, there are obviously bits in the record that some people don't like, whatever it may be, and Ken has been Chancellor and he's said no to a lot of people. That makes enemies, some people don't like being told no but to be a successful Chancellor you've got to be tough enough, you have to have the overall national and governmental interests at your..in your main sights. So you offend some people but I haven't the slightest doubt that he is the man with the experience, with the popular support and with the maturity to lead our Party now through a difficult period of recovery and into a winning posture. A broad appeal at the time of the next election. HUMPHRYS: I'm not trying personalise this really, this is a matter of policies isn't it and Mr Clarke himself has said that if others win then many people are going to be excluded from the Party as a result of the policies that they will follow. HESELTINE: I think that if you look at Ken's record you can see that combined with the experience and the toughness is his preoccupation to follow a tradition of philosophy, a tradition...a political instinct, which is inclusive and some people find that a weakness, I don't see how it can be a weakness in a parliamentary democracy where you have to appeal to a broad church. But certainly that is one of the reasons why I personally will vote for Ken. I think he does stand for that broad popular appeal. Interestingly enough you see it all in the opinion polls, where he has a very substantial lead because he's got that appeal. It's very difficult to get as a matter of fact as a Chancellor, having taken all those tough decisions to still be out in front, way out in front in terms of popular appeal to the people at large. HUMPHRYS: And by definition, others are exclusive and are applying a kind of loyalty test, either you take this view of Europe or you have no part in governing this country in the event that we retain power, regain power. HESELTINE: Well Europe, it's very interesting to me, looking at these sort of perceived divisions in the Party, and of course there are always arguments and personalities and cliques and groups, there always are in politics, that's one of the fascinations in the profession. But what I found interesting is how some people have sort of almost retreated into a point at which, not just Europe now, but almost the Single Currency is the sort of single issue upon which these great issues have to be determined. I find that extraordinary, particularly if you look at what's happening in Europe, where unpredictability is the order of the day. The idea that the Conservatives should decide their fate and their strategy for the next five years upon an issue which daily looks less likely to be a preoccupation for the Party, extraordinary. The fact is that we are in Europe, every leader of our Party in modern times has been conspicuous in taking us further into Europe because that has been the reality of British national self interest. And the danger for the Conservative Party, of allowing that sort of broad centre of industrial and commercial world, who trade with Europe, invest in Europe, create wealth in Europe, that sector of our society, to feel that the Conservative Party had lost touch with where our main economic self-interest lies, would be to hand to Tony Blair a priceless card. HUMPHRYS: So what happens to the Party then? Can it survive if it adopts a policy that says 'absolutely no, under any circumstances' to a Single European Currency? HESELTINE: Well, I think that would be unwise because it would be to, if you like, throw down a challenge to a significant number of Conservative Members of Parliament who have been extremely loyal to John Major, who have remained relatively quiet through much of the controversies about Europe because they wanted to help the Conservative Party to win. It would have a serious risk of igniting a period of disunity which would be exciting perhaps for everybody but which would in my mind recreate the atmosphere of 1979, not in the Conservative Party but in the Labour Party, where they did pursue what was seen as the central essence of the cause they believed in. And of course it destroyed the Party in terms of the prospects of power because of what people saw and there has been an element of that in our defeat. What people saw was a party which couldn't agree amongst itself as to the way forward. HUMPHRYS: And indeed it actually split the Party. Some people couldn't stay, found they couldn't stay in the Party any longer. HESELTINE: That is true. And that was part of the eighteen years of Conservative success - that we had an Opposition which was unelectable and the one thing above all else now in the short term and in this leadership decision that we've got to, I think, have in mind, is not to take decisions which box us in to positions which might be regrettable or unsustainable. HUMPHRYS: Might that happen to you, what happened to the Labour Party? Is that the danger as you see it? HESELTINE: I rest my case and my belief on the facts of Tory history. We are the single most successful political party in democracy in human history. We've been elected to govern this country more frequently, for longer periods than any other political party in the history of democracy. And that is not luck. That shows the innate common sense of the Conservative Party. The common sense which always told it to look for that broad national consensus which would enable you to get a popular appeal and therefore get elected. And that's nothing the same to say that that is about being soggy or not taking difficult decisions, or whatever it may be, it's nothing to do with that at all. You often have to take very tough decisions and in eighteen years we certainly have. But we kept very closely in touch with the instincts of the British people and above all else we kept together as a Party - united in those very difficult times. HUMPHRYS: And you believe that is threatened now? HESELTINE: I think Ken Clarke is the man most likely to produce the sort of policies and the sort of leadership which would unite and reunite the Conservate Party. Lots of things to be done but that certainly is one of the most important and he's made it clear. He's gone - as far as I can see - as far as anyone would reasonably expect, in saying that any Shadow Cabinet that he led would be inclusive of all views in the Conservative Party and they would then sit down and face the difficult analysis of how you find a way forward. And it may be - this is one of the few luxuries of Opposition - maybe we don't have to find a way forward in the immediate future because we now and for years to come are going to be in Opposition and opposition is about - self-evidently - opposing in the early years. It's only in the later years that people are entitled to say to you "what would you do if you were in Government?" HUMPHRYS: But, given that you go down that other road, the road that you fear, you would also then - quite apart from the effect that it might have on Members of Parliament - you would also jeopardise your support from the business community for a start. HESELTINE: Well the business community is a vital part of any Conservative appeal to this country. After all we have created the enterprise economy, we have been the Party that rejected all the centralist trade union dominated socialist insticts and won the battle in order to set free the industrial and commercial world to achieve the successes they are. And the idea that we would ever come back to power unless we could insure their support is - well it only has to be contemplated for people to realise that it would never happen. HUMPHRYS: Could you see yourself serving in a Shadow Cabinet that adopted the policies that Messrs Hague and Redwood have now adopted? HESELTINE: Well I think, John, the question is broader than that isn't it? I have assumed that I will not be a member of a Shadow Cabinet. HUMPHRYS: Why? HESELTINE: Well, I mean I have more or less got off the train. You have to in the end face up to this in public life and whilst I intend to remain an active Member of Parliament and represent my constituency I think that - I assume that having explained I wouldn't stand for the leadership that at that point I was telling people that I would expect the Party to move on. But that doesn't mean to say I shan't be supporting it or part of it, but I can't believe that people will be casting around to try and put me into a position. I mean I've done quite a lot of this work and it's difficult to see what job would be meaningful for me there. HUMPHRYS: So you wouldn't accept any job now that were offered to you by any of the potential leaders? HESELTINE: Well I have assumed ... (telephone ringing) ... Just let me kill that 'phone. Perhaps one of them was on the 'phone. HUMPHRYS: Somebody offering you a job. HESELTINE: Someone offering me a job. Well you've got a scoop, you've got your story. Like those journalists - I hope they stayed with us, that's all I can say. But, no, I've assumed that I wouldn't be part of the Shadow Cabinet. HUMPHRYS: Why? HESELTINE: Well, I think that if you've got to my position, where I've been Deputy Prime Minister and you don't go on for the 'biggy' you're not going to continue in the second position. HUMPHRYS: Isn't it perhaps worse than that in the sense that you have after many years of fighting on a one particular side of the Conservative Party you have now lost the argument. The argument has gone in favour of - putting it crudely - of the arch-sceptics. HESELTINE: Can I just - this perhaps is rather a sort of biographical question, but you say "lost the argument". My own perception is that people like myself have won the argument. I don't know where I'm supposed to have lost. Well, you know, just take the Thatcher years - I was the guy who led the privatisation business. HUMPHRYS: No, I was talking about Europe of course. HESELTINE: Well, I mean why have we lost in Europe, we are a major player in Europe, we are at the heart of European defence, we are the most successful economy in Europe, and we're gaining immensely from our position in Europe, so where have we lost? HUMPHRYS: We are now facing the prospect of a leader, unless of course it is Ken Clarke, though apparently he's acknowledged himself that's fairly unlikely - we're now facing the prospect of a leader who has the support, - we saw that in the first round of the election in the way MPs voted - who's going to base his support on saying, "We will have no part so long as I'm leader or perhaps Prime Minster, of a Single European Currency. The fundamental issue in Europe has been solved. HESELTINE: Well, let's wait to see who wins the leadership battle, and let's see what happens as a consequence. I'm not in the business of using interviews or making statements which can be turned into challenges or threats or anything of that sort. HUMPHRYS: You did it in the last election, sixty seats and nudging upwards. HESELTINE: Well, no, sixty wasn't it, nudging upwards. HUMPHRYS: Yes, that's what I said. HESELTINE: It was the only way to keep you people quiet, I couldn't think of anything else to say. You didn't expect me to say we're going to lose do you? Anyway it didn't quite work out that time, I mean I think that's my first public acknowledgement that that forecast wasn't as good as some of the others I've made, but it was a brave attempt. HUMPHRYS: But this time it isn't looking good, this - as a lot of people have acknowledged and it seems to be the case does it not, that the Party is going to go in a direction that you have fought to stop it from going in for a very long time now. HESELTINE: Well, I don't in any way remove a word of what I've said about who I think should win, and in that position that is the only view that I would want to express. I shall go on arguing that Ken is the guy to do the job and we will see what the electorate comes to conclude on Tuesday or the following Thursday. HUMPHRYS: And given that it doesn't go the way you want it to go will you continue to fight on the back benches for what you believe in. Some - "save the party that I love" seems to come into mind as an apt phrase, perhaps? HESELTINE: Well again you see, I mean, you and I both know, you've probably written the question down even more than I've written the answer down - I'm not in the business of threatening anybody, and the answer to that question is inviting me to in some way issue some sort of challenge as to what the dire consequences would be, and I'm not in the position to do that. HUMPHRYS: Well, you've told us already in this interview that you believe there would be dire consequences of the party going the wrong way in your view on Europe. HESELTINE: I think there would be very serious consequences of a disunited party. That I think is self-evident. History tells us that and that is why I argue so vehemently for what I think would be the most unifying decision, which is Ken's election. HUMPHRYS: I was talking to Michael Heseltine a little earlier this morning. ...oooOooo...