................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 24.11.96
................................................................................ INTERVIEW WITH DAVID HEATHCOAT-AMORY JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. There's talk of rebellion at Westminster again - we'll be asking whether Mr Major can get out of his latest European crisis. I'll be talking to the Scottish Secretary - has he promised the Scots more than he can deliver? And the Tory Press - Tory no more - ? That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART. NEWS HUMPHRYS: It was the Sun wot won the last election for the Tories - or so it modestly claimed. We've a report which says the true blue press may be changing its colours. STUART HIGGINS: "I will not rule out at this stage that The Sun could come out in favour of Tony Blair at the next Election." HUMPHRYS: The Scots have their Stone of Destiny back - but what about the destiny of their nation? Can the Government give them what they want? First, though, the latest crisis for Mr Major over Europe. This time he's managed the remarkable feat they say of uniting both wings of his Party - sceptics and enthusiasts. The only problem is - they're united AGAINST him because he won't let them have the debate they want. It's all about the introduction of a single currency. The MPs want a full-blown debate BEFORE the Chancellor sets off for Dublin tomorrow week to meet his fellow finance ministers. Mr Major says NO. David Heathcoat-Amory was himself a Foreign Officer AND a Finance Minister before he resigned ... over EUROPE. And HE wants that debate and he's on the line now, good morning to you, afternoon. DAVID HEATHCOAT-AMORY: Good morning. HUMPHRYS: What's the problem? The Prime Minister says you can have a debate but it'll be a little bit later. It will be after that meeting. It will be before the Dublin Summit. HEATHCOAT-AMORY: Well, the first thing is we must have a debate about these issues because they do effect the Constitutional position of the House of Commons and therefore the people who elect us. So we want to be absolutely sure that anything we sign up to or the House of Commons agrees to has no hidden implications because we've been let down in the past by agreeing to things which then turn to be much worse that were promised. So we must have a debate. That's the first point and if the Chancellor goes to any meetings before that he simply can't agree to them. That shouldn't matter very much. He simply has to say to his colleagues in Europe: I'm sorry but I can't agree to these regulations until the House of Commons has had its debate. HUMPHRYS: But surely you've had the assurances that you want? Minister after Minister has said nothing is going to happen at that - they call it ECOFIN, the meeting of the Finance Ministers - that is going to commit Britain to anything. HEATHCOAT-AMORY: Then why not have a debate if they've got nothing to hide? I'm sure that they're telling the truth if they say that. Then we've got everything to gain by an open debate, to assure the public that Parliamentary powers are being respected in this matter. Afterall, the Government itself has not made up its mind about whether to join a Single Euroepean Currency. So, there are a lot of details still to be discussed. It's absolutely right that that should be discussed and thrashed out in the House of Commons which is ultimately the guardian of our liberties. HUMPHRYS: You say: why not have a debate? Why bother? You can have a debate after it. And that's the next meeting - the one that matters. HEATHCOAT-AMORY: The Government weren't denying debate at all. They said that no there'd been a debate upstairs, in a specialist committee and that was it. Their initial idea was simply to wave it through on the floor of the House without any further scrutiny. It's that, that annoyed both me and my Parliamentary colleagues and I'm glad to hear these rumours that the Government will now allow an open debate, because even on Party terms we've everything to gain as a Conservative Government, by showing the difference between ourselves, who do believe in protecting British interests and the Labour Party who believe in signing up to more or less anything that comes along. So, even in narrow Party terms - let alone the interest of the Country as a whole - everything points towards allowing a full debate on the floor of the House of Commons, answered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. HUMPHRYS: In Party terms you wouldn't want to be seen to be pushing - as you have been doing - pushing Mr Major's back against the wall? HEATHCOAT-AMORY: It doesn't have to be like that. HUMPHRYS: But it is like that already. HEATHCOAT-AMORY: No. The Conservative Party overwhelmingly wants to keep powers and keep powers over the British economy at Westminster and not transfer them to Brussels. If we can show the Party and the Country that then I think it would help us in Electoral terms. We are damaged by the belief that it's all the same, that Labour and the Conservative Party all have the same view on this and worse, that the Navy aspect to this whole debate, that the public are not really being told about. So, everything points toward a full debate. It would reassure the public that our powers will be retained. It would also show that the Conservative Party is ultimately in favour of retaining these powers and it's new Labour, that's got an attitude to Labour-to Europe which is really: where do I sign? Let's go into it even further. HUMPHRYS: So-So you are absolutely adamant that there must be a debate - a proper debate - before the Chancellor sets off for that meeting? HEATHCOAT-AMORY: There's got to be a debate and if it can't be held before the Chancellor goes to any meeting, he's got to make it clear to his other European colleagues: sorry, boys, I can't agree to anything until the House of Commons has agreed these- to scrutinise these regulations. It's actually quite a modest request for an MP to make. I was sent to the House of Commons to look after the interests of my Constituents. That's, really, all I'm asking to do - to have this out on the floor of the House of Commons. If it involves annoying a few European Finance Ministers for a few weeks, well - tough. What's more important? Looking after the interests of the House of Commons or always going along to try and be nice to our colleagues in Europe. HUMPHRYS: David Heathcoat-Amory, thank you very much indeed.