................................................................................ ON THE RECORD NICK HARVEY INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 21.9.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Kim Catcheside reporting there. Nick Harvey, you talk about grown-up politics, you talk about a constructive Opposition. What it actually amounts to is that you're trying to have your cake and eat it, isn't it? NICK HARVEY: It's certainly something new which we haven't had in British politics before and it's going to take us a while to explain to our members and to the public what it's all about but where there are things where we agree with the Government about such as a Constitutional agenda, which we've been banging on about for decades. Finally, we have a Government prepared to listen, offering us a chance to come and sit around a table and discuss it with them. It would be perverse, in the extreme, if we didn't take up that opportunity. But, as the conference at Eastbourne this week unfolds, I think, the public will see very clearly that there are many other issues where we don't agree with the Government. We're not happy that they've just adopted the Conservative spending targets on Health and Education, which they lampooned at the time Kenneth Clarke set them and we're not happy about charging students fees to go to University'; we're not happy about their lack of progress on environmental clean-ups. So, I think, at the end of the week, people will see what constructive Opposition means. Working with the Government where there's something sensible to achieve but really marking out difference from them and pushing them to go further on other things where we don't think they've got it right. HUMPHRYS: Which, on the face of it, it sounds pretty simple, pretty... quite easy, in fact. But, politics isn't like that, is it? I mean, we heard Roy Jenkins in Kim's film there talking about wanting the Government to succeed, failing to rule out a merger - never say never. On the other hand, we heard Phil Willis saying: we want to fight them to the death. Can't both be right, can you? HARVEY: Well, they can, actually because what we also heard Phil Willis say, with specific reference to Proportional Representation was: if it's available we want to strike a deal with them. Now, if we get Proportional Representation, which is certainly very, very high up Liberal Democrat priorities. HUMPHRYS: Top, surely? HARVEY: Top, surely - yes. We're talking about the creation of a pluralist political system, where many Parties compete for specific things they want to put to the Electorate and the suggestion that that would result in a merger is perverse because it would be pointless. The whole idea of bringing about PR is to have a system where many Parties flourish offering their wares to the Electors and sort things out after the Election's been taken. HUMPHRYS: So, obviously, since PR is at the top of your agenda, you can only justify what you're doing at the moment and if you get PR (pretty damn soon). Now, you haven't been promised that, have you? HARVEY: The Cabinet Committee isn't there simply to try and bring about PR - there's a wide agenda of Constitutional change - all of which have been priorities of ours for a long time. HUMPHRYS: But, you said PR was the very top of the agenda? So if you're not there to do that, what are you there to do? HARVEY: We are there to do that. HUMPHRYS: Right. HARVEY: And, it will remain very high up our agenda. I think- HUMPHRYS: No, hang on. It's important this, you see. Not very high up at all. Top of your agenda. HARVEY: Yes. HUMPHRYS: That's what you said and that's what everybody in the Party believes. HARVEY: Quite right. HUMPHRYS: And, if you're not sitting around that table to do that, what are you sitting around that table for? HARVEY: We're already making some pretty good progress on that front. We're now seeing PR coming through European Elections, we've seen the Welsh and Scottish Parliaments that are going to come into being, are going to be on the basis of PR. We see new peers being appointed to the House of Lords in order to make the composition of the House of Lords more prorportional to the vote at the last Election and, of course, shortly we're going to see a Commission set up to explore a system of PR, that will be put to the public in a Referendum. Now, by my reckoning, in the course of the few short months since the Election that's pretty good going. HUMPHRYS: Well, except that all of that was promised beforehand and what you want - what is really the top of your agenda - is PR the Westminster Elections - you've got no closer to that? HARVEY: We agreed last winter in a lengthy negotiation with the Labour Party, which I, myself, took part in a way of going forward on the issue of PR for Westminster. HUMPHRYS: Before the Election. HARVEY: The Labour Party, then, put that into their Manifesto that is the mandate upon which they were elected. They have shown further intention of making progress on this very point by setting up this Cabinet Committee and I expect this autumn, as agreed between the two Parties, a Commission will come into being which over the course of the next year will propose a Proportional system to go before the electors in a Referendum. Now, that's exactly what we expected to happen. They're showing so far every sign of acting in good faith and, clearly, we will continue with that agenda for as long as we think it's going to make progress. HUMPHRYS: But, Malcolm Bruce is right, isn't he, when he says if there is no commitment soon - and, he says 'soon' and he says 'commitment'....there's going to be no time in this Parliament to do all the things - quite a few steps to be taken - a lot of steps to be taken - before you get what you want. There's going to be no time. HARVEY: Yes, Malcolm is quite right to sound that warning and there is - as I think, Lord Jenkins said this morning in a newspaper article - a brisk timetable to follow if there is realistically any chance of getting this in place for the next Election. Now, that timetable looks something like this: over the next year or so, the Commission does its work - proposes a Proportional system - there would, then, have to be legislation in the next autunm's Queen speech for a referendum to be held the following spring or summer. If that goes through successfully - and, of course, that's another big stage to cross - then, the PR legislation itself would come the next year, in the third year of the Parliament. If that goes through, there is still two years to bring about the necessary administrative changes. It would be fast-going as Roy Jenkins put it this morning but it can be done. But, Malcolm Bruce is quite right. We have to keep pushing the pace on this, if we're going to stand any realistic chance of getting it by the next Election. HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, that's a very clear timetable that you've spelled out there - is the Government in agreement with that timetable? HARVEY: That's broadly speaking, the timetable that was envisaged in the so-called Cook/MacLennan agreement. HUMPHRYS: Ah, but that was before the Election. HARVEY: Yes, indeed. HUMPHRYS: We've now got a Government in power. HARVEY: Yes. HUMPHRYS: And, before Elections, Governments/Parties talk about doing things. When they're in Government, they actually do things. Have they said to you: absolutely right, Nick, we'll go along with that timetable? HARVEY: Well, they haven't wasted much time setting up this Cabinet Committee - that's been very soon. I expect to see the Commission up and running - certainly when the House resumes. HUMPHRYS: They could talk you out, couldn't they? It's possible if you were looking for a cynical approach to this and Heaven Forbid that you would ever do that on this programme. But, if you were, you could say they could talk and talk and talk on that Commission? HARVEY: Perish the thought but we take these things a step at a time and so far, they have taken the step, as they said they would, on the timetable that they said they would and there's no reason to believe - at this stage - that they are suddenly going to develop bad faith and renege on anything..... HUMPHRYS: But, they haven't agreed with you that the timetable you've just given me is the timetable they will follow. Yes, they have set up the Committee agreed on the time for setting up the Commission but beyond that - all those other steps - they haven't agreed to that timetable, have they? HARVEY: They have agreed that the Commission will be set up early in this Parliament and I think to all practical intents and purposes that means this autumn. HUMPHRYS: What makes you think that? I mean, they haven't said that. HARVEY: I'm pretty confident that it will get up and running fairly soon. As to how long it takes to do as well - which is the point I think you're probing - the agreement was that it would report within a year. Now, if it's delivered its report then we would expect to see them move towards a referendum, which they have a manifesto commitment to hold that Referendum - and, the mandate that they won on May the first included a commitment to hold that referendum and I would expect to see that during the 1998/99 session. Now, we can't anticipate what the outcome of that referendum will be and, therefore, what further progress will be made after that. But, in fact, the referendum comes in that sort to timescale, which we're on course for, at the moment, then, it would still be possible to get PR in this Parliament, although it would be quite tough on the timetable. HUMPHRYS: Right, but let's look at those steps because you say you can't tell how people will vote. Let's look at the steps before that. HARVEY: Yeah. HUMPHRYS: You haven't got that timetable yet, that commitment yet, if the Government doesn't adhere to what you have just been spelling out, what's your position going to be? Will you stay on the Committee, will you continue to trot along to Downing Street? HARVEY: If the Committee continues to make progress on the Constitutional issues which it's there to discuss, we'll continue participating in it. If the Government for some reason or other decided - and I don't anticipate that they would - but they are abandoning the whole reform process, then there would be no further purpose to be served in it. HUMPHRYS: Well let's be a bit more clear about that. Are you saying: if they do not adopt the timetable that I have just spelled out, we will reconsider our position? HARVEY: No, of course not. HUMPHRYS: Consider our position. HARVEY: I mean the timetable that I have just laid out is the logical steps that need to be taken in the order that they need to be taken. That if as time goes on it becomes clear that they're not actually going to work to a timetable that's capable of delivering PR, then clearly we will have to reconsider our position over the whole issue. HUMPHRYS: What point? HARVEY: Well, let's take it a step at a time. You're building one even .... upon another. HUMPHRYS: I mean, that's the way things are. HARVEY: Yes, well, we have to take each-. HUMPHRYS: Because you've not got a Party that's sitting there calmly saying: oh, we'll just let them do what they want to do. We've heard some of your very senior Members saying, we want action on this. We want specific commitments. They're not going to sit back and let you carry on. HARVEY: We all want action on this and we all want to see progress. It's something that the Liberal Democrats have been fighting away for for sixty, seventy years. If in the course of trying to get this there's an odd uncomfortable moment then so be it. But these are important issues and ones that it makes sense for us to continue a dialogue about and I'm sure that we will continue putting the pressure on there. I mean why are we supposing that there is going to be this problem? I mean PR for the European Elections in two years' time; PR for the Scottish and Welsh Elections in two years' time. I mean this is actually becoming a reality all about us. It's not just some pipe dream, the agenda is there and in front of us. HUMPHRYS: Well-You might, as I said earlier - suggested earlier - be supposing it because Government with a majority of a hundred and seventy now rather likes having a majority of a hundred and seventy-nine - under PR they wouldn't have got it. But anyway. Let's be quite clear that what you were talking about here is PR, Proportional Representation, it is not AV, the Alternative Vote system which is not PR. That is what you're talking about. HARVEY: The agreement is that a system which is proportional will be put before the electors in a referendum so that they can choose between existing first-past-the-post system and a proportional system. Now the Commission that's going to sit over the next year has to decide the technicalities of what that proportional system might be. But one thing, as you say, is absolutely clear, Alternative Vote is not a proportional system. As Mr Blair himself said in this very studio just a few months ago, AV might have some advantage for the Liberal Democrats but AV is not a proportional system. HUMPHRYS: So that would be reneging on the deal if they went down that - because we know Peter Mandelson favours that. HARVEY: We know a lot of people will favour Alternative Voting for all sorts of reasons. But the commitment is to a proportional system and as Mr Blair himself says, the Alternative Vote is not a proportional system. HUMPHRYS: So when they announce - I say when they announce - the referendum, has the Prime Minister, has Mr Blair got to come out and say I support it? HARVEY: Well we've got to allow Mr Blair to look at the system that is proposed. It's perfectly reasonable for the moment that he keeps his powder dry, he doesn't even know what the system is going to be and I think that we've got to give the Commission time to do its work, to make its proposal. At the end of that I would have thought it a strange idea that a Prime Minister invites the country to vote in a referendum and doesn't give some lead himself. I can't think of any precedent for a referendum being held where its objective is not to invite the public to agree to a proposition that the Prime Minister and the Government is making. It would be certainly novel and entirely unprecedented. HUMPHRYS: So you're saying he must show a lead here, must give a lead here. HARVEY: No. Mr Blair will have to make his mind up when he sees the report. But he has, in setting up the Commission, or in agreeing to set up the Commission, accepted that there is a case to be made for change, if the system that is proposed is one which he thinks is reasonable, I would expect that he will lend his support to it. HUMPHRYS: A bit more than expect isn't there? It sounds a bit like an ultimatum really doesn't it? You know the Prime Minister, if you go along all these steps you've said, at the end of it all he's got to come out and say: yeah, I think we should vote for a proportional system of some sort. HARVEY: I said before we will have to take these things a step at a time. Why would he be inviting Liberal Democrats to come and join him round a table and discuss the process? Why would he agree to set up a Commission, why would he agree to have put in his manifesto that he will hold this referendum if he was disposed simply to have....the whole thing. HUMPHRYS: Then why hasn't he said to you he'll do it if all those are right? HARVEY: Well because he hasn't yet seen the system. I think you've got to give the man a chance to look at what the proposition is and if it's one that strikes him as reasonable I would expect him to support it. HUMPHRYS: Or else? HARVEY: You said that. HUMPHRYS: Nick Harvey, thank you very much indeed. And that's it for this week. Next week the Foreign Secretary Robin Cook on the eve of the Labour Party Conference. Until then good afternoon. ...oooOooo...