................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 3.11.96
................................................................................ INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM HAGUE But first today -- the state of John Major's Government. After a successful conference, and a Queen's Speech designed to put Labour on the defensive, ministers have found themselves -- once again -- trying to limit the damage after some apparent U-turns on strategy, and open disagreement on how to improve, for example, discipline in schools. William Hague is the youngest member of the Cabinet, the Welsh Secretary -- and he's in our Newcastle studio. Mr Hague, a very good afternoon to you. WILLIAM HAGUE MP: Good afternoon. EDWARDS: Welcome to On The Record. You emerged from Bournemouth from the Party Conference just a few weeks ago. I remember it well, you were very confident, you were all saying you were back on top of things, in control. The last two weeks seem to have destroyed, shattered that impression haven't they. HAGUE: No I don't think so at all. In fact if you look at what's been happening in local council by-elections around the country, the Conservative vote has recovered very strongly and we won a spectacular victory in North Wales, taking a seat from the Liberal Party ten days ago. Similar things have happened in the rest of the country, so I think the Conservative Party, after, as you say, a very successful conference, has now eneered a much better period. We've seen one or two things, the sort of things that you've been talking about creating difficulties that I think are more a matter of media hype in the absence of anything else sensational to report and getting latched on to particular subjects. But what's going on out there in the country is that people can see an economy that is improving rapidly, that is stronger than any other in Europe and they can see that that will only continue if we continue to have a Conservative Government. EDWARDS: Well I'm intrigued by the notion that all your difficulties over the past two weeks Mr Hague are down to media hype. Surely you must accept, just given what's happened in the last two weeks, that the impression people are getting is that you are stumbling from pillar to post. That you are floundering on some of these major issues that you yourself have chosen and that the Government no longer appears to be in control of events, if I were to use a more blunt phrase, rather incompetently handling events. HAGUE: I don't think that is the impression and it's certainly not the reality, the Government has brought forward to Parliament a Queen's Speech which includes some very solid and very needed, much needed measures that I think will be very popular in the country and that will be debated in Parliament over the next five months or so, however long it is, up to the General Election. The economy, as I say, has continued to improve with some excellent news over the last few weeks, there has been general praise for the judgments of the Chancellor over the last few weeks and that is the thing that matters to people most of all. And so I think we will see, when we see this period in perspective, we will see that there were just one or two hiccups in what was a general recovery of the Conservative Party. EDWAWDS: Alright, well let's put one or two of those hiccups in perspective then. Let me take caning. You won't be shocked to know that I want to ask you about caning this weekend. Mrs Shephard says she's in favour of it, the Prime Minister slaps her down and says he's not in favour of it, it's not Government policy. The Home Secretary says he's in favour of it in extremist (whatever that is), Robin Squire, another Minister, says he's in favour of it. Again, an impression of stumbling incompetence. HAGUE: Well it's not Government policy and it's not going to change. It is a side issue this whole matter of caning. EDWARDS: Really. HAGUE: It could only ever be relevant to about half a per cent of the school population of this country. What matters for the other ninety-nine and a half per cent is that we carry on raising educational standards. EDWARDS: If it's a side issue Mr Hague, why do you think that people as senior as Michael Howard and Gillian Shephard feel they need to give a view on it - which is contrary to Government policy. HAGUE: They are asked about it and they given their view on it and this is one of those situations in which politicians can't win and which people like yourself quite rightly ask us questions, we give an answer and then they say: why are you talking about this issue. EDWARDS: With respect Mr Hague, let's face it, if Mrs Shephard is asked a question on discipline in schools and she volunteers the view that she thinks that caning isn't such a bad thing after all - which, by the way isn't Government policy, you can hardly blame people for being interested in her response can you. HAGUE: I think the electorate in general are mature enough to be able to hear people voicing opinions without thinking the world is coming to an end. EDWARDS: Trouble is Mr Hague.. HAGUE: The reality of the thing is that the Government policy on the matter is not going to change, if it did change it wouldn't get through the House of Commons in any case. EDWARDS: That's a pledge is it, the policy is not going to change despite the fact that if we read today's opinion poll the majority of the public are in favour of a change and, indeed, there are a good many people on your own backbenches Mr Hague, if you are to believe the words of Sir Marcus Fox the Chairman of the Backbench Committee in this morning's papers he says there are a good many of your backbench colleagues who want change on this and you are saying that the Government won't listen to that. HAGUE: Well I'm saying we don't have Government by instant opinion poll. And I wish that some of the commentators on these subjects could have come with me in the last few weeks around some of the schools in my own constituency and in Wales, where I have seen some wonderful achievements. And I think it must be soul destorying to thousands of teachers and millions of pupils around this country who are achieving ever higher standards and more of them going on to higher and further edcuation than ever before to be told that the education system is apparently in a state of anarchy and out of control. That is just not the case. There are somemore measures needed to improve discipline in schools and those are going to be in the Education Bill that we will be taking through Parliament over the next few months. EDWARDS: I'm still intrigued Mr Hague by your notion that this is a side issue, that discipline in schools as manifested by the Caning Debate is a side issue. HAGUE: No, no, let's just be clear about that. I said caning was a side issue, discipline in schools is not a side issue. EDWARDS: Caning is part of discipline. HAGUE: Discipline in schools is about good rules and reward systems. It's about having good head teachers, it's about the whole ethos of the school and of course about parental responsibility at home as well and the caning issue is simply one small aspect of the discipline debate. EDWARDS: It's quite clear that many of your colleagues, Mr Hague, think that caning is actually an important element in the whole concept of discipline. Can you tell us why a friend of yours, I've no idea who that friend is, a friend of yours is quoted in one of today's papers as saying that you, personally are in favour of caning but you dare not say it. HAGUE: I don't know who that friend is either. My views are quoted in one of today's papers, on the front page of one of today's papers as saying exactly what I have just said - it is a side issue, it is not going to come back in the current Parliament, the Government's policy is not going to change. But what we are going to do is to take other measures to improve discipline in schools and what we are going to do is follow through the success of the National Curriculum and improving choice and diversity in education to keep having higher educational standards in this country. And it's time people were ready to celebrate that and congratulate those people who have great achievements to their credit in education instead of criticising them and always seeking what is going wrong instead of celebrating what is going well. EDWARDS: What you've said Mr Hague is entirely consistent with the fact that you are privately in favour but are loyally adopting the Government line. HAGUE: My view. EDWARDS: What is your view? HAGUE: My view is very clear. EDWARDS: What is your private view? HAGUE: My view is that the Government's policy on this matter should not be changed and so anybody who wants to speculate about my view can stop speculating about it. That is my view and I don't think it will be changed. If it was changed it wouldn't get through Parliament and so what we must concentrate on is these other issues. The other actions that we can take to improve discipline and on holding out as good examples the countless schools around the country that have done a tremendous job on discipline and on academic attainment. EDWARDS: Before I move off, Mr. Hague, definitely no change in Government policy on caning? HAGUE: That's what I said. EDWARDS: All right, fine, thank you very much. You said earlier that you were not indulging in Government by instant opinion poll. Can I take you onto another issue which may actually undermine that thesis of yours - onto combat knives. Now two Sundays ago ministers had no plans to legislate against combat knives, the next day Mrs Lawrence, the late headmaster's wife, said that she wanted them banned. You said this wasn't possible because Civil Servants had difficulty in coming up with a proper definition. The Opposition Parties then said okay well we can try to come up with a definition, then you turn round and say well okay perhaps we can try and find one with you. Now, again, isn't the overwhelming impression one gets, one of fumbling, stumbling incompetence. HAGUE: No, I think it's a very clear position. The Home Secretary has explained that the difficulty in this area is coming up with a workable definition, how to distinguish between combat knives and knives which can be held for perfectly proper domestic purposes. Now, if someone can come up with...that has alluded a generation of Civil Servants with a workable definition, with a definition which Parliament thinks could work then of course it could be adopted. But it has proved extremely difficult to do that. Other people who have called for action on this have had to concede that it is extremely difficult. EDWARDS: Well, it is difficult. HAGUE: It isn't necessary to legislate on it, incidentally. It could be done by an order under the 1988 Criminal Justice Act. EDWARDS: I'm not questioning for a second Mr Hague that it's difficult coming up with a definition. It patently is very difficult - that's clearly true. Its perceptions - this problem of perceptions and the fact that the Government gave us the impression that no action was possible on it. It's now saying that action may be possible and the fact that you give us the impression that you were shamed into taking this line, by the fact that the Opposition Parties were pushing you into it. HAGUE: Well that certainly, is not the case. If you look at all the measures taken on law and order over the last few years, virtually every action that the Government has taken to be tougher on law and order in this country has been opposed by the Labour Party in the House of Commons. So we don't have to be defensive about that subject. Here we're being perfectly straightforward and honest with people and saying it is difficult to come up with a definition. If you can come up with a definition which we all think can work, then, let's all look at it. And that's why the Home Secretary has said he will talk to anybody. He will talk to Opposition Parties and anybody who wants to discuss it and talk about a definition. EDWARDS: The trouble is.. HAGUE: That seems to me to be perfectly straightforward. If Government say whatever people say to us we will never change our approach. We don't think it's possible ever to change anything, then people say: well, why are you so pedantic? If you say: well, we are prepared to consider the position, if somebody can come up with a good idea then people say: why are you changing your mind? EDWARDS: Yes. HAGUE: It is one of those things on which you can't win. So what we want to do is the best thing for people in this country and if a workable definition can be found we'll adopt it. EDWARDS: On an issue of this importance, Mr Hague, surely it is up to you, as politicians, to demand a way forward and not parade Civil Service excuses about the difficulties of getting a definition. And indeed the price you seem to have paid now is that you seem to be responding to an agenda set by the Opposition Parties. That's part of your political problem. HAGUE: Well I'm sure the Home Secretary has demanded that people working on a definition come up with one if they possibly can but he still can't invent one if one does not exist. But, he certainly, the Home Secretary doesn't have to take any lessons in responding to other people's agendas. He has set the agenda on a tougher approach on law and order in this country. We have seen some of the biggest falls in the crime rate ever in history - certainly, in many decades - in the last- in two of the last three years in this country and that is greatly to his credit. And, again, it is time for us to reflect on some of what has been achieved, instead of just looking every week or every day in the newspapers at anything that may have gone wrong. EDWARDS: A playful thought- well a semi-playful thought, Mr Hague: can you imagine Margaret Thatcher presiding over a Cabinet and accepting this kind of excuse? Wouldn't she have demanded a response? And she'd have refused to take no for an answer and that is the big difference, isn't it? You are driven by events and she was driving events. HAGUE: I don't think that is the difference, at all? EDWARDS: Do you not really? Do you really not? Do you think she'd have taken no for an answer for an issue as big as this? HAGUE: We all know many occasions on which Mrs Thatcher took a great deal of advice and quite rightly. She also drove things forward and John Major has driven things forward in recent years, to make us into a low inflation economy and one of the countries with one of the best economic prospects that we have had in the lifetime- EDWARDS: Come on, Mr Hague. HAGUE: -of my generation. EDWARDS: Come on, you can imagine Mrs Thatcher coming to the House of Commons and saying: sorry, I can't come up with a definition. It's an issue of great public interest. Lots of people are worried about it but I'm very sorry I can't come up with a form of words to deal with it - you can imagine that, can you? HAGUE: Well, nobody else has managed to come up with such a form of words so far and we will see if one can be developed. EDWARDS: Alright. HAGUE: But I don't think you can fault the Home Secretary on this matter because he has looked at it very carefully, he has offered to talk to anybody and that is what politicians are meant to do. That is an entirely responsible thing to do if you are the Government of this country. EDWARDS: There you are Mr Hague, let's turn to something else that's- well, it's not appeared in the last two weeks, it's been there for several months. But, certainly there have been other events in the last two weeks on - beef and your handling of the beef crisis that raise further questions. Again, this week, we've had a case of some Ministers seeming to contradict each other on the likelihood of an additional cull, for example. On this beef issue and in the last two weeks, in particular, are you satisfied that as a Government you've behaved competently? HAGUE: Yes, because we are now making tremendous progress in getting rid of the backlog of cattle to be slaughtered under the over-thirty-month slaughter scheme. We're giving enormous assistance of the agricultural industry, tremendous amount of assistance to farmers who have both genuine difficulties in getting their cattle slaughtered and in maintaining their incomes and those have been the right things to do. We have a very powerful case to put to the rest of the world - that British beef is safe to eat, probably some of the best beef to eat anywhere and we want the rest of the world to listen to that. And so I think we can be very proud of the measures that we have put in place, to deal with this awful, horrendous problem. EDWARDS: Again, I'm not questioning, for a minute, how difficult the problem is, Mr Hague. I'm just asking questions about how you've handled it. So, let's just consider what's happened since the the Florence summit back in the summer. At that summit the Prime Minister said that by the autumn the ban would have been partially lifted as a result of an additional cull. We're now in the autumn, the additional-the ban hasn't been lifted, there hasn't been an additional cull. I don't need to spell these things out to you because you know - you're part of these discussions. Do you think you've handled this competently? HAGUE: Yes, I think, it has been a-one of the most difficult problems any Government has had to deal with in recent years and the Prime Minister in looking forward to a lifting of the ban in Europe was, of course, relying, to some extent, on the goodwill of our European partners - goodwill that was expressed at the time of the Florence agreement. Now, that - as it turns out - has not materialised. Those other countries have not been ready yet to lift the ban. So of course the Government will continue to work to lift the ban. We can say with utter confidence to people that because of the measures that we've taken over a number of years - right back over the last seven years since BSE was identified and the problems were first discussed, it is safe to eat British beef. It is safe to eat it in Britain, it is safe to eat it in Europe and we will keep on saying that. But, not all of these events are entirely within our control. EDWARDS: Am I understanding you correctly, then, Mr Hague, in saying that it's a lack of goodwill - that's what you said - on the part of the European partners that's been responsible for the lack of progress, rather than any scientific developments, or anything else? It's a lack of goodwill on their part? HAGUE: Yes, I think, if anyone looks at the signs, one can see that there is an extremely good case for British beef. It's very hard to dispute that. But, our European partners have had some difficulties with their own industries, in reassuring their own consumers. We've got to respect those difficulties, but they made those difficulties worse by imposing a ban which created a scare that wasn't actually necessary. The solution to that is for them to lift the ban. Of course, that is what all of us would like to do - all of us in Britain, I hope, would like to see them do - but they evidently require more persuasion yet and we'll keep applying that. EDWARDS: And if that is the case, do you not think it's fair for me to suggest that Mr Major was, perhaps, in your words, then - well, not in your words but in words I'm offering to you - conned into thinking that he would get the co-operation that he didn't get? And, that in that sense, Mr Hague, it was unwise - it was wrong, even - to make the pledge that he made and to raise the hopes of farmers up and down the country? HAGUE: Well, he wasn't making any pledge. He was looking forward to what could happen in the autumn and of course he still wants to see the ban lifted at the earliest possible opportunity. One has to make the best guess possible in these circumstances. The alternative is that politicians hardly ever to say anything at all. And, of course, when the Florence agreement was made, it was possible to look forward with a bit more confidence than is now the case to a lifting of the ban in the near future. EDWARDS: So it was just a guess? It was just a guess at that stage was it? HAGUE: Well, we've had some setbacks since then but we're going to continue working on it. We're going to get there, in the end because we've got science on our side, we've got right on our side. EDWARDS: Well, fine. When is the end going to be then? Can you at least give us an idea of whether there's going to be a cull in the first place, an additional cull? HAGUE: Well again we have to see how these things develop. We can't have an additional cull, at the moment, because the entire capacity of the rendering and slaughtering industry is working on the existing cull that is alreay taking place. And that is clearly going to take some more weeks yet. So, we're not going to set new deadlines or make new forecasts, what we can say to everyone in this country and everybody across the rest of the world is you should be eating British beef and not have to worry about it. And the sooner that the European countries lift the ban, the better it will be for all concerned, including their own industries but we cannot say exactly when they're now going to do that. EDWARDS: I'm sorry we're just running out of time. I just wanted to ask you at the end of this interview - given what you've said - your denials of any incompetence on your part. Your essential message, therefore, is that if you carry on as you are now and as you've carried on in the last two weeks, you're coasting to victory. HAGUE: If we carry on - and we are going to carry on - with the economic prospects of the country being the best they have
been in the lifetime of my generation - better than any other country in Europe, with unemployment falling steadily and consumer confidence growing - and being able to say to people that if you want that to carry on, you have to have a Conservative Government and that is the truth, then, we are going to win the Election. EDWARDS: Mr Hague, thank you very much for talking to us today. HAGUE: Thank you.