................................................................................ ON THE RECORD GERRY ADAMS INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.11.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: And now Northern Ireland. This morning a Loyalist Paramilitary group said they shot and killed a Catholic man in Belfast early yesterday morning. Yet more proof, if we needed it, of why the peace settlement matters so much. And it is under threat again. The key deadline in the agreement passed yesterday without being met. New north-south institutions, in which ministers from Belfast and Dublin would work together, should have been set up. That hasn't happened because there is still no Executive in Northern Ireland - no Shadow Executive. And that is because the Unionists have said that Sinn Fein cannot sit on the Executive until the IRA starts - I should say the Ulster Unionists have said - Sinn Fein cannot sit on the Executive until the IRA begins to hand over its weapons. And that they have so far refused to do. The Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, joins me from now Belfast. Good afternoon Mr Adams. GERRY ADAMS: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: There's no doubt is there, that that dreadful incident early yesterday morning has underlined the importance of getting this agreement through and making it work. Are you going to use your
influence, the influence that you have as leader of Sinn Fein to persuade your colleagues in the IRA to hand over some weapons so that we can break this log-jam. ADAMS: Well first of all John people here will be slightly aghast at your question, given the fact that a Catholic man was killed by Loyalist and pro-British elements, and Sinn Fein signed up to an agreement on Good Friday which we are keeping. The mechanisms which were established under that agreement bind all of the parties to deal with the decommissioning body, and to use our influence and all of our positive and constructive influence to try and resolve this issue of decommissioning. It is not a pre-condition to movement on any other matter, and the deadline which was missed yesterday was missed because of the wilful and deliberate go-slow by the Ulster Unionist Party who are concerned to undo and to rewrite the agreement which their leader made on Good Friday. And I think this is why we need to be very very focussed on what has to be done. What has to be done in the first instance is that all parties to the agreement - that includes us, it also includes the two governments - have to honour the commitments which they made. And yesterday I spoke to your Prime Minister Mr Blair for half an hour, and I put it to him that as both a party to the agreement and also as head of the British Government that he has a responsibility to see the implementation of this agreement in as urgent a way as possible. HUMPHRYS: And what did he say to you? ADAMS: Well, that's a matter for him to make clear to you, but let us be very very sure about all of this. In terms of what is required here it is a new dispensation. The agreement on Good Friday as I'm sure your viewers will know, put forward mechanisms and institutional ways of dealing with a range of social, economic, political, cultural, institutional and constitutional matters, all of which show the need for the type of transformation which is required. Now six, almost seven months later, the only institution which is in place is the Shadow Assembly. The agreement makes it very very clear that the Executive, the Shadow Assembly, the cross-border bodies, the Council of Ministers, the implementation bodies are all inter-dependent and interlocked. HUMPHRYS: And it is clear is it not, that there cannot be progress on those other things until there has been some decommissioning. ADAMS: Well, with respect .... HUMPHRYS: That's perfectly clear isn't it.... ADAMS: How is it clear John? HUMPHRYS: Whether it's in the agreement or not, let's put that to one side, but the fact is, it was the spirit of the agreement. It is now accepted by some of your colleagues in Dublin, and indeed in the SDLP that there has to be give on this issue. There is not going be progress without it is there? ADAMS: Well, with respect, if I can say so, just don't in a trite way, and in a half a sentence say 'let us put that aside'. That was... HUMPHRYS: Well, you've explained the position. I mean you had explained your view of the position, so we're clear on that and I hope that we can move on a little bit from that in this interview. ADAMS: Well, if you would stop interrupting John, perhaps I can explain what people here voted for, because people here in this island, this is what is significant, in my opinion and I've said this many times, wasn't even the agreement, but was the referendum, and that referendum was voted for by people both sides of the border in unprecedented numbers. And they voted after a very very detailed public debate, the type of measures which we are seeing being prevented now on the contrivance and on a false pre-condition being set by the Unionists. Now why are they setting that false pre-condition? Because they're against the kind of changes which are required, and all of us know, and we're bound to after yesterday and after the events of the summer to know that peace is more than a cessation, peace is the process of justice, peace is people having ownership in their daily lives, having a place in society, having an involvement in society. Now how can one party - imagine if this was happening in Britain - if everyone fought an election and if under the terms of that election and the various agreements made, citizens were to be represented in a government and in the other institutions if they got enough votes.. HUMPHRYS Yes, but look, it isn't just a matter of one party here is it. We've got Seamus Mallon saying Sinn Fein..... ADAMS: No, with respect don't be misquoting Mr Mallon - please don't be misquoting Mr Mallon. HUMPHRYS I can hardly misquote him since I've not offered you a quote yet, so let me get.... ADAMS: Well, you've already misquoted him earlier on if I can say so John. HUMPHRYS: I think not, because I haven't mentioned him at all. Look, let me give you the quote. ADAMS: You've mentioned the SDLP and you've mentioned Dublin. HUMPHRYS Well, let me give you a quote... ADAMS: And please, as someone who is living in a city which in a few days' time is going to bury a victim of sectarian killings, let me cut across the nonsense which you are talking. If this was happening in Britain it wouldn't be tolerated for one day. A man was killed because he was a Catholic, because those who killed him are trying to prevent the type of changes which were signed up on Good Friday.... HUMPHRYS: And everybody condemns that unreservedly... ADAMS: Well, it isn't a matter of condemnation. We've gone beyond condemnation. It's a matter of Mr Trimble deciding on which side is he on. Is he on the rejectionist side, those who don't want these type of changes, or is he among those of us who signed up to this agreement. HUMPHRYS: It isn't just Mr Trimble is it? ADAMS: Mr Blair also has to make up his mind where he is on this. HUMPHRYS Well, if I can now give you the quote from Seamus Mallon. "Sinn Fein", and I quote verbatim, "should recognise the moral and political obligations to decommission". That is a verbatim quote. Let me give you another one from Bertie Ahern. "The reality is we must make some progress on this". Those are quotes. ADAMS: Well yes, partial, out of context quotes, but yes.. HUMPHRYS: How out of context Mr Adams. ADAMS: Let me finish please. HUMPHRYS: They're straightforward quotes and you know they are. ADAMS: Well, because you fail to tell your viewers that Sinn Fein appointed Martin McGuinness to deal with the decommissioning body. HUMPHRYS: That is well known. ADAMS: Let me finish please. The deommissioning body is the institution and the mechanism which was established on Good Friday to work out all of these matters, and every party is obliged to deal with that body and to work all of these matters out and especially this issue of decommissioning in good faith and constructively and positively, and we are doing that, and there can be no doubt at all that the Republican guns have been silenced, that they have been taken out of commission, and that the space created by all of that should be built upon by politicians and moving on the other agreements which were made on Good Friday, not - I could seek out a reason not to talk to Mr Trimble. I could demand that he resigns from the Orange Order, I could demand that he uses his influence to resolve this ongoing pain around the siege of Garvaghy Road. I could demand that Mr Blair calls off his soldiers in South Armagh and Tyrone where there huge wholesale military operations on a daily basis, and ongoing harassment of the local Nationalist population. I make all those points to illustrate to you that any of us who wanted an excuse not to move forward could have many excuses. The killing yesterday should be an incentive for people to move forward, and as I put it to your Prime Minister yesterday, this deadline has been passed, he now needs to focus as he did before, and I welcome the presence of the Taoiseach coming here on Monday as they both did before, as President Clinton did before to honour the commitments made on Good Friday. HUMPHRYS: Is it possible that this could derail the whole process, because we have a situation where David Trimble is saying: we will not set up this executive unless and until the IRA begins to decommission its weapons. As you will know he is in a very large extent held hostage by his own party on this. Is it conceivable, is it conceivable that that whole thing could come off the rails at this stage. Would you allow that to happen? ADAMS: Well, first of all Mr Trimble is not hostage to his own party. Mr Trimble is exactly in step with his own party. The positions which he is articulating are his and we shouldn't present him as a victim to the machinations of other Unionists. He is the man who is refusing to move forward, he has to show leadership. Secondly, Sinn Fein have shown over the last number of years our commitment, our creativity and our imagination in both establishing and maintaining with others the momentum towards peace. We can do no more than is humanly possible if others are wilfully and deliberately refusing to move. What's at fault here and what's at the core of all of this is a lack of political will on behalf of the Unionist leadership and in that case, then it's over to the British Prime Minister to make progress. HUMPHRYS: And without that, is there the danger of a return to violence? ADAMS: Well, don't, if you can excuse me again for being a bit belligerent with you, talk about a return to violence, or the possibility of a return to violence, what was the killing of a Catholic in this city if that wasn't a return to violence. HUMPHRYS: I mean an end of the IRA ceasefire.. ADAMS: I know precisely.. HUMPHRYS: ...is that a possibility. ADAMS: That's why I correct you John because sometimes the killings of Catholics.. HUMPHRYS: Alright, I take that point.. ADAMS: The killings of Catholics do not register on the Richter scale of indignation among broadcasters like yourself. HUMPHRYS: Is there - let me repeat the question - is there - rephrase the question - is there the danger if this does not sort itself out one way or the other... ADAMS: As far as Sinn Fein is concerned we are totally wedded to peaceful and democratic means and we will do all in our power despite the begrudgers and despite those who want to bring all of this down, we will do all in our power to prevent that from happening. HUMPHRYS: And the IRA? ADAMS: Well that's a matter for them, John, you know that well enough. HUMPHRYS: But you have influence. ADAMS: Aren't we using our influence. I mean I am here - I have to keep telling you this - I am here in the seventh month almost of this agreement with only one institution in place, with a refusal to move on all of the other institutions agreed and a refusal to honour the commitments made. The contrivance and the precondition which has been established. I am not going away. I am totally wedded to this. We will keep focused on it. But the responsibility at this time is to make sure that those who are against the agreement or who are trying to revise it are not given political cover and anyone who makes excuses for Mr Trimble is giving him political cover. HUMPHRYS: Gerry Adams, many thanks. ADAMS: Thanks John. ...oooOooo...