=================================================================================== .................................................................................... ON THE RECORD
GEORGE ROBERTSON INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 25.4.99
.................................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, Kosovo. The Nato summit is finishing today with a re-assessment of how to use ground forces AND an agreement to stop oil getting into Yugoslavia... AND a decision to escalate even further the air attacks. Is there a danger that this whole thing is getting out of control? How would Russia, for instance, react if we were stop their ships carrying oil? The Defence Secretary George Robertson is in Washington for the summit. Mr Robertson the Russians have already said they will not respect this oil embargo. Are we seriously saying that if push came to shove we would use force to stop their ships?
GEORGE ROBERTSON: Well, the Russians are saying that they will ignore the embargo but up to now they have respected the embargo and arms through that part of the world and I don't think that the Russians at the present moment want a confrontation and all the indications that we have had from the Russians at all levels is that they don't wish to become engaged in this so I think the idea of refuelling the Serb military machine is not really on the Russian agenda at the present moment. HUMPHRYS: Well you say that but Mr Ivanov the Foreign Minister said yesterday that this embargo will be respected only by or applies indeed only to NATO Members ROBERTSON: Well the NATO Members felt very strongly and not just the NATO members but the wider partnership for peace nations as well and that's forty four Nations that there was something ironic not to say inconsistent with the idea that you stop the fuel supplies inside Serbia and Kosovo, you destroyed the refineries so that the military machine would run out of fuel but at the same time fuel was still coming in through the Adriatic ports of Montenegro so we've put in place now certain procedures which will be worked on over the next few days, we're not saying how they will apply because that would be to give Milosevic sensitive information and we have to take account of the legalities and the practicalities as well but we intend to make sure that we choke off these war supplies on which the killing machine in Kosovo depends. HUMPHRYS: But you can't, can you. You simply cannot do that if what you're saying is we will not confront the Russians. You cannot do that. The Russians have made it perfectly clear - put aside the arms embargo, that's another matter altogether - the Russians have made it perfectly clear that they can legally continue to supply oil to Belgrade. ROBERTSON: Their assertion that they can legally do it is different from their intention to do it or the likelihood that they would try to do it........ HUMPHRYS: ...but they've said they won't....... ROBERTSON: ...and I think that the connections that they have with the, well the Russians have made it clear all along that they don't want to get involved in this confrontation. They have shown by their actions that they are not intending to get involved in this confrontation so you have to presuppose that they would go out there and make a deliberate attempt to break into the Ports of Montenegro in order to supply this oil and none of the indications, none of the performers up to now suggest that they will do that. HUMPHRYS: But that isn't what they would have to do is it. They would simply have to carry on doing what they have been doing until now. If that happens and there is no indication that they had been supplying oil and there is no indication that they will stop doing so. If they continue to do so will NATO board their ships and stop them, that's the question. ROBERTSON: What, what that is the question to which at the present moment I'm not giving you any answer. The reality is ..... HUMPHRYS: So it's possible ROBERTSON: ...that they have not up to now chosen to confront us in the battle that is going on inside Yugoslavia, they recognise as they did right at the very beginning that what President Milosevic is doing in Kosovo has as many implications for them as it has for us. That ethnic cleansing is no more palatable to people in Moscow than it is to people in Washington or in London and that they are not going to get engaged on Milosevic's side so the whole of your hypothesis is built on the Russians deciding to have a confrontation when all of their performance over the last four weeks is that they don't want to have that confrontation. HUMPHRYS: But what you're saying that is that if they do decide and you don't know whether they will or not and certainly on the basis of what they have said formally it suggests that they will continue to do so, if they do so, you are saying that you have not ruled out the possibility that you would use force one way or the other to stop them doing so. ROBERTSON: Well we haven't said anything of the sort. We haven't said anything definitive on it. What we have said is that the countries of NATO and of the wider partnership for peace are not going to be involved in supplying Yugoslavia with oil that keeps the killing machine in Kosovo going on, keeps the momentum of ethnic cleansing up, keeps the revitalisation of the military machine ongoing that they are not going to do that. Now we have got a continuing dialogue with Russia and whatever Russia says in public, whatever the noises that are made from certain elements in there, Russia signed up last October to the Security Council resolution that called for an end to the violence, the start of a political process and the removal of the troops from Kosovo. So you've got to take on one hand the words that are being used at the present moment and the actual performance on the ground and we will see then what happens. HUMPHRYS: As far as ground forces are concerned, Madeleine Albright said this morning that NATO is updating its planning. Now does that mean that we have changed our view or are in the process of considering changing our view about not sending them in if there is a risk of them being shot at? ROBERTSON: It means that we're updating the planning that was done at the very beginning to take account of a changed situation inside Kosovo caused by Milosevic, a changed situation caused by the degradation of the Yugoslav forces by the air attacks that have taken place and by the general situation that applies in the Balkans. It is absolutely sensible that when we are involved in a conflict of such seriousness that we should if necessary re-visit some of the initial assumptions and that is what NATO has decided to do. It hasn't decided to do any more than that. It hasn't decided to do any less either. HUMPHRYS: So in other words the answer to the question is 'Yes', we may send ground forces in even if we are going to be confronted by Yugoslav forces, by Serb forces? ROBERTSON: No we've quite clearly said that there is not going to be a wholesale or forced invasion of Kosovo. That has been our position consistent....... HUMPHRYS: No but you've been changing your position all the time haven't you? It's been shifting all the time. ROBERTSON: No, that position remains entirely consistent from the beginning and it remains the position as it stands at the moment but what we've got to take account of is a changed situation inside Kosovo therefore perhaps a requirement for a greater number of ground troops on the ground as part of the implementation force than was originally planned for to take account of these changes but we're also looking at the basis on which we took the decision about ground troops in the first place. We chose air attacks. We are confident that air attacks are making the difference inside Kosovo and Yugoslavia. They are going to be increased and intensified but all we're saying is that we came to a conclusion having looked at all of these options that we should revisit these options after four weeks of the air campaign. HUMPHRYS: And one of the options, one of the options, is going in even if there is some resistance? ROBERTSON: Well obviously that was one of the options at the beginning so.....(both speaking at once) HUMPHRYS: No it wasn't. You always said absolutely the opposite to that. No question of it you said and Robin Cook and the Prime Minister...... ROBERTSON: No it was a planned option..... yeah that was the decision taken after the options were examined after all of the planning had been done. NATO decided that there would be no wholesale opposed invasion into Kosovo and that we would rely on air attacks to disrupt the violence and to weaken the machine, the military machine of Milosevic that was causing the violence, so we chose one option out of a series of options and the Secretary General has now been directed by NATO to look at the original options to see whether they still stand up to examination or whether they might need to be changed. HUMPHRYS: Are we going to be consulting the Russians about this if we decide to send ground forces in, in the face of opposition will we be saying to the Russians 'Look, this is what we're doing. What are your views on it?' ROBERTSON: Well the Russians can see perfectly clearly that we're looking at these options and there is a permanent connection ongoing with the Russians. The Russians have been involved in all of the discussions right up to the beginning of the air attacks and that consultation, that dialogue goes on. HUMPHRYS: Do the Russians have a veto? ROBERTSON: No they don't have a veto, no, and neither does Milosevic but the Russians are involved in these discussions, we keep them briefed and as I've pointed out to you the channels of communication that we have had have indicated that the Russians do not wish to get involved on the side of Milosevic. HUMPHRYS: George Robertson, thank you very much indeed for that. .....ooooOOoooo.... 4 FoLdEd