................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MICHAEL FORSYTH INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 24.11.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: First of all, I'll just pick up a couple of points about this European debate issue, Mr Forsyth. Why not give them the debate they want? Why can't the Government do that? FORSYTH: Well, there will be an opportunity to debate these and other issues and it's interesting David has not placed the emphasis on the debate being before the meeting of Finance Ministers. HUMPHRYS: Well, he said he wanted that. FORSYTH: No. He didn't actually. He said that it was perfectly possible for the Chancellor to go along to the meeting of Finance Ministers and not commit the Government's position until there had been a proper debate in Parliament. So, it's perfectly possible for the Chancellor to attend that meeting and to introduce a scrutiny reserve - which happens frequently where we discuss matters at European Council meetings. HUMPHRYS: But, he couldn't have made it much clearer. What they really want is a debate on the floor of the House of Commons before the Chancellor sets off for that meeting... FORSYTH: I don't think he said that at all. I think he said that the Government's position should be one that these very important matters have to be subject to debate and scrutiny in Parliament and that if the inability to get a debate in advance of the meeting of Finance Ministers arises, then, we shouldn't commit our position. I don't see any particular difficulty with that. HUMPHRYS: Are you saying, then, there isn't any possibility of the debate before the Finance Ministers' meeting? FORSYTH: Well, that's a matter for the business managers. HUMPHRYS: That is a matter for Mr Major and the Government - the Cabinet - then? FORSYTH: Well, there is the Budget and the debate on the Budget next week which is quite an important matter for the country and for Parliament. It's a matter for the business managers what they're able to fit in and when, but the basic principle of ensuring - before any decisions are taken on these matters - that there's proper debate in the House is accepted. HUMPHRYS: Alright. If it can be fitted in and generally if the Prime Minister and his Cabinet want something to be fitted in and it is fitted in, it can be fitted in before the meeting of the Finance Ministers. Do you think that's a good idea? FORSYTH: Well, what I think would be a good idea is that we focus on the main issue which is that economic and monetary union would be an enormous step, that the Government have made the position absolutely clear that we're not going to have any conditions imposed on Britain, that the opt out from EMU holds good and that our opponents, who are trying to make mischief out of this particular matter, would commit us more readily to a more integrated Europe - and Mr Blair himself, said he would never be isolated in Europe. So, I don't think that they're in a position to try and make difficulties for the Government. The Government's position is absolutely clear. There will be a debate - the precise timing of the debate is something which needs to be settled by the business managers. HUMPHRYS: Michael Forsyth, thank you very much, for the moment. We'll be coming back to you because we're going to talk about Scotland. ...oooOOOooo... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Forsyth, there's the problem isn't it? That you can't actually give the people of Scotland - so many of the people of Scotland - what they want, which is greater control over their own affairs? MICHAEL FORSYTH: Well we've certainly done that and we have administered devolution through the Scottish Office. The Scottish Office has enormous freedom to develop policy across the range: Health, Education, Social Work, the whole range of Government policy. So we do have devolution to Scotland. The problem is that we have Unionist politicians, in both the Labour Party and the Liberal Party, pretending that it's possible to have a Parliament with tax-raising powers and not threaten the existence itself - and that is the battle. And of course Scotland can have its own Parliament. Scotland can be independent but the price of that would be enormously high, in terms of reduced public services, a greatly diminished standard of living and of course the breakup of the United Kingdom and therefore Scotland having a reduced voice in the councils of the world. So these are big issues. Issues which Labour are playing politics with, issues which for the sake of entrenching Socialism north of the border, the Labour Party are prepared to put forward and put at risk with it, the integrity of the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: And to counter those arguments what you've done is say look: I can give you greater control - you talk about the Scottish Office itself - but you've said I can give you greater control than you already have under that system. You talk about the Grand Committee for instance being much more important than it has been hitherto. The reality is, it isn't at all, is it? The Grand Committee actually is not significant in the way you've presented it. FORSYTH: I don't think that's true at all. We've had a number of meetings of the Grand Committee all over Scotland. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor on Monday in Cooper in; in Fife, the Defence Secretary have come to Scotland, been held to account for their policies in Scotland, in Scotland, and that is a huge step forward. HUMPHRYS: It's still only a talking shop. FORSYTH: Well you may say so but because of the new procedures in the Grand Committee and for considering legislation in the House of Lords, we've been able to get five Bills in a shortened session of Parliament, when we've usually had one or two. So we're able to consider more Scottish legislation and judging by the Labour Party's reaction in Wales - I was in Wales yesterday - they're terrified of having the Grand Committee moving around Wales because they've seen how enormously successful it has been in Scotland. And the Labour Party themselves in Scotland have been complaining about how it's been a PR show for the Government and even on Opposition days we've been able to get across the very real benefits which the Union and Government policies are bringing to Scotland. HUMPHRYS: The reality is that the Grand Committee can deal only with those matters, those Bills, that the Government in Westminster says it may deal with - that's the truth of it. FORSYTH: Yes but this is where the great danger in the game that Labour and the Liberals are playing is, because if you argue that majorities in the Constituent parts of the United Kingdom should determine policy and legislation in those parts, you are a separatist, that is a nationalist position. HUMPHRYS: So you are conceding that point? FORSYTH: I'm not. HUMPHRYS: You are saying in essence: yes that's absolutely right, the Grand Committee inspite of all my brave words, whatever it was last year, actually can't do anything. FORSYTH: No, I'm not. HUMPHRYS: (a) it can only talk about it and (b) it can only talk about those things that we say it can talk about. FORSYTH: I'm not conceding the point at all. I'm making the point that no Unionist can argue other when its sovereignty remains with Westminster. And what the Liberals and some of the Labour Party - and George Foulkes was doing it in your film - are saying that somehow a majority in Scotland should determine policy in that area, does that apply to England? Would a Grand Committee in England - a majority of Conservative MPs in a Grand Committee in England - determine policy there? HUMPHRYS: Well, .. because they're not asking for it. The people of Scotland are asking for greater control over their own affairs. FORSYTH: No. HUMPHRYS: You answer them by saying: well, look we will make the Grand Committee, meet some of your needs. FORSYTH: I'm- HUMPHRYS: And, yet at the same time you acknowledge that it isn't doing that at all because sovereignty rests in Westminster. FORSYTH: No, not at all. There are many useful things which the Grand Committee has done; scrutinising what Government is doing, asking questions of the Executive, through their Members of Parliament, considering legislation which is less controversial and which can be taken in Scotland through the Grand Committee. HUMPHRYS: Ah. FORSYTH: And of course, if there was a Labour Government with a majority in the Grand Committee, they would be able to use these reform procedures to do everything that a Scottish Parliament could do, except one thing - and that is make Scottish pensioners and people working in Scotland on low wages, pay fifteen per cent more in Income Tax on their wages and savings than people south of the border. That in itself will help to provoke the breakup of the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: Well they'll have a vote on that. They can decide that for themselves. But as you say, the Grand Committee only deals - can only deal - with those things that are less controversial. In other words, only those things - to go back to what I said earlier - that you want them. They can't for instance deal with Nursery Vouchers. The Nursery Voucher: now that is something which many people in Scotland feel strongly. They don't want it - at least the opposition MPs don't want it - but they can't do anything about it. FORSYTH: Well the opposition MPs don't- may not want it but the parents want it. The pilots that we've run in Labour areas, using Labour councils, have shown huge demand. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. FORSYTH: It's been an enormous success story. HUMPHRYS: So then why not allow the Scottish Grand Committee to deal with it? FORSYTH: Well I mean there's no reason why the Scottish Grand Committee can't discuss Nursery Vouchers if they wish but I mean- HUMPHRYS: But in the end they can't affect its outcome? FORSYTH: Well, we're talking about alternative reforms. A Labour Government with the Grand Committee reforms that we've put in place would be able to do everything they could in a Grand Committee. They'd be able to do everything in a Grand Committee that they could in a Scottish Parliament and indeed hold members of the executive to account for their policies in Scotland - it wouldn't be able to raise the Tartan Tax. What Labour are proposing is to have a Parliament in Edinburgh and still send MPs from Scotland down to Westminster to decide policy for England, a huge phalanx
of Labour MPs from Scotland who will have no say in their own Constituencies, whose only purpose will be to provide Labour with a majority in England. That would not be acceptable, it would bring about Constitutional instability that will lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: What you are offering them is nothing more than has been on offer all along. You've done a bit of window dressing. That's the point I'm putting to you. You've done a bit of window dressing and it doesn't actually amount to anything more than they already had. FORSYTH: Well you may call it window dressing, I would say that we're getting more legislation, I'd say the economic council we've set up is the- HUMPHRYS: Non-controversial. FORSYTH: The economic council which we've set up has allowed more people an involvement in Scottish affairs. Campbell Christie said it was the supporters of the Tory Party - he himself is a member of that council. We've now established a convention for the Highlands which will be meeting shortly. We've looked at ways of devolving power to Local Government - we've been very successful in that respect. And all of these measures are consistent with maintaining the Union. HUMPHRYS: But you can set up as many bodies as you like, if they don't have teeth what's the point? You can go along and you can talk about things but you can't actually do things. I mean a good example - we saw it on that film there - is BSE. I-Scottish farmers know what they want to do to be able to put their industry back on its feet. They cannot do it because they're not allowed to do it because Westminster - influenced by English farmers - say: naw, that's not on. FORSYTH: If I may say so, it's a lousy example. HUMPHRYS: Well you tell the Scottish farmers that. FORSYTH: Because the beef ban-Well actually the position of the Scottish Farming Union is that they want the ban to be lifted on a United Kingdom basis. The position of the Nationalists is rather different and is at odds with the Scottish Farming Union. And I would have thought that your researchers would have known that. But I'll tell you why it's a lousy example. It's a lousy example because at the end of the day the way we get the ban lifted is in Europe and the negotiations in Europe are led on a United Kingdom basis. If we'd a Scottish Parliament who would be speaking for Scotland's farmers - a Minister from Westminster? HUMPHRYS: Well, why couldn't a Scottish Parliament? Why in this particular case cannot the Scottish farmers have an answer to this question: we want that ban lifted - right? On Scottish beef. They may selfishly say - and who can blame them? - don't care about English beef we're concerned about our livelihoods. Now, one way to get that ban lifted is to show to Europe that we are as clean as you want us to be is to go ahead with the cull in our country, compensate our farmers in our nation and then people will know without a peradventure of doubt that Scottish beef is good beef and they can buy it. Now that might do the trick but they're not allowed to go ahead with that. FORSYTH: Well, they're not allowed to do that because it wouldn't satisfy Mr Fischler. HUMPHRYS: You don't know that. FORSYTH: I do know it. I've asked him - he's told me. HUMPHRYS: But, it hasn't happened. FORSYTH: It hasn't happened because the purpose of the exercise is to get the ban lifted. You know very well, there is considerable cross-border trade between Scotland and England in cattle; that we don't have a system for dealing with traceability. These are the reasons. I mean, if you want to talk about BSE, I'm very happy to do so. But to suggest that a Scottish Parliament, sitting in Edinburgh, would be able to do more for Scotland's farmers than a Cabinet Minister representing Scotland and Wales in the Cabinet, which would be lost as a result of the Scottish Parliament, or a reduction in our MPs, which would be the inevitable consequence of devolution would be nonsense. HUMPHRYS: Well, they couldn't do much less, could they? FORSYTH: Well, you're asking me. You're trying to put me on the defensive because I am defending a partnership which has lasted for three hundred years. HUMPHRYS: I'm merely telling you what people in Scotland are saying and you saw them on that film. FORSYTH: Well, I think I know what people in Scotland are saying and I'm not sure that your film necessarily provided an entirely unbiased view of it. But, you are asking me why I believe that we should stick with the Union and why what we have done to try and improve Scotland's voice may, or may not, meet aspirations. It is for those people - like the Labour Party - who threaten the Union, who threaten Scotland's funding, who threaten our voice in Europe and threaten our position at Westminister, in terms of our voice in Cabinet and Parliament to justify their proposals, which will not work and which will destroy Britain. HUMPHRYS: Why should not the people of Scotland be allowed to determine their own Constitutional future? FORSYTH: They can. HUMPHRYS: But, they cannot. FORSYTH: Of course, they can. If Scotland wants to be independent, it can be independent. I don't believe that that would be in Scotland's interest. But what you can't do is do as Jim Wallace did in your film - which is pretend that you can set up a Parliament and give Scotland say over its own affairs and still be dependent on Westminster, to determine its funding and then give a little bit of room for manoeuvre by landing the Scots with a Tartan tax, that takes fifteen per cent more of their income. HUMPHRYS: Well, you keep saying that but they're going to be able to vote on that. They're also going to be able to vote under a Labour Government - I'll finish the question. Under a Labour Government, they're going to be able to vote on whether they have their own Parliament. You are not going to give them that vote. FORSYTH: Well, as far as Labour Government is concerned, the decision to have a vote on a Tartan tax was imposed on the Scottish Labour Party from Islington by Tony Blair. HUMPHRYS: They're having a referendum on it and it will ask that question. This is a red herring. FORSYTH: It's not a red herring. The Liberals - who are Labour's partners - and you had a Liberal spokesman speaking on this issue in your film. The Liberals have said that if the Scottish people vote against the Tartan tax that they will prevent the Parliament from being established by Parliament. So, what is this referendum? HUMPHRYS: I'm asking you what a Conservative Government would do? Why a Conservative Government feels so unable. You see, you defend the right of the people of Scotland to decide their own Constitutional future but you do not give them that right. FORSYTH: Well, we do and in the past the Labour Government - when it held a referendum - it was on a post-legislative basis. What Labour are proposing are referendums before Parliament has decided and what I'm telling you is their own friends - their own bedfellows, the Liberals - are saying: even if the Scots vote for a Parliament, and against the Tartan tax, that they will not support it. So what kind of democracy is that? HUMPHRYS: But we're not talking about - at least, I'm trying not to talk about - the Labour Party. If I want to talk to the Labour Party about Scotland. FORSYTH: I'm against the tax-raising Scottish Parliament. HUMPHRYS: But you're answering a question I haven't put to you. I didn't say to you: are you Mr Forsyth in favour of a tax-raising Scottish Parliament because, of course, I know what your answer to that is. You said: they can. The people of Scotland can decide their own Constitutional future. What I'm putting to you is that under you they cannot. FORSYTH: Of course, they can. There will be an Election in a few months' time. Those people who want an independent Scotland can vote for the nationalists or they can vote for the Labour Party and the Liberal Party. HUMPHRYS: Forgive me. There'll be one or two other people voting in that Election as well. There'll be people in England, there'll be people in Wales, there'll be people in Northern Ireland voting in that Election as well. FORSYTH: I see. So, you are proposing there should be a referendum on Scottish devolution that should cover the whole of the United Kingdom? HUMPHRYS: I'm trying to deal with the issue that you rose and what you are saying is they can decide- FORSYTH: Well, it's an interesting point. HUMPHRYS: -their own Constitutional future. FORSYTH: It's an interesting point but it's one you might want to put to the Labour Party as to why the referendum in Scotland should not also take place in England because England will be affected by these proposals. And, if I could just make one point and that is I am against a tax-raising Parliament for Scotland. HUMPHRYS: Ah, you've told me that very many times and I take that on - right. FORSYTH: And because I'm against it I'm very happy to stand in the Election on that platform. I do not believe it is the right way to run a country - to decide everything on referendum. HUMPHRYS: Alright. FORSYTH: Labour are now committed to thirteen referenda in the next- HUMPHRYS: Rather than listening to you tell me what the Labour Party is committed to, let me tell you what Mr Major, himself, wants. And, he says: the future Consitutional position of the people - and, put in brackets, here for a moment - (of Northern Ireland) - of Northern Ireland - is a matter for the people of Northern Ireland to determine and for no one else to determine. For no one else to determine. Now, you're prepared to say that for the people of Northern Ireland, you're not prepared to say that for the people of Scotland, a much older nation. FORSYTH: Tell me what George Robertson said about- HUMPHRYS: I'm not concerned with what George Robertson said. For the moment - if you would - I'm concerned with what Mr Major said and your response to that. FORSYTH: Yah, well, what George Robertson said was that Northern Ireland - and the situation in Northern Ireland - could not be compared to the situation in Scotland and I'm surprised you're raising it. HUMPHRYS: I'm not concerned with what Mr Robertson
said. I'm concerned with what Mr Major said. FORSYTH: Well, what the Prime Minister said- HUMPHRYS: Why-Absolutely. He is the Prime Minister.... FORSYTH: I was trying to find a degree of consensus. I was just pointing out- HUMPHRYS: I don't want to have to- This is- We're getting nowhere here because you resolutely refuse to acknowledge in this particular case what your own Prime Minister is saying. FORSYTH: No, I agree with the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: You agree with the Prime Minister? FORSYTH: Of course. HUMPHRYS: So, it's OK for the people of Northern Ireland to make that decision for themselves, by themselves - no one else - not OK for the people of Scotland. FORSYTH: Well, the issue in Northern Ireland - I'm not sure in which context the quote was taken from - but there are two issues. HUMPHRYS: Well, straight out of Hansard. FORSYTH: Yes, I don't know in what context it was made. HUMPHRYS: Made on Northern Ireland clearly enough. But, anyway, go on. FORSYTH: There are two points. The first is the point that was made in your film about the Northern Ireland assembly. What we're talking about there is a body which would have powers rather akin to Local Government. HUMPHRYS: Oh, on the contrary. FORSYTH: It is in no way - It is in no way comparable with a tax-raising legislative Parliament of the kind that is being proposed in Edinbrugh. HUMPHRYS: On the contrary, it will have powers of everything except Crown, Defence and Foreign Affairs. FORSYTH: Secondly, the proposal does not involve maintaining an over-representation in terms of population, of Members of Parliament from north of the Border and thirdly, the situation in Northern Ireland is quite different from that which pertains in Scotland in England - and, that has always been accepted, including by Mr Robertson. HUMPHRYS: Well, alright. Final thought, then, what will your ...Please don't give me a Labour Party answer to this! What will your attitude to a Scottish Parliament be if and when it comes about? FORSYTH: It's not going to come about because Labour are not going to win the Election. HUMPHRYS: Well, you must have an attitude. Arthur Bell had a very clear attitude to it. He said: if you don't work with it, you will be destroyed in Scotland. Is that your view? FORSYTH: It is certainly the truth that if Labour win the Election and if they establish a Scottish Parliament, it will have profound consequences for our Members of Parliament, our representation in the House of Commons, for the Office of Secretary of State, for our funding. And, it's certainly true that once Humpty Dumpty falls off the wall, it will be very difficult, indeed, to put it back together again. HUMPHRYS: So, you're in dispute with Mr Major over that, who says Parliament's sovereign and Parliament can unmake it, if it chooses to do so? FORSYTH: I'm not in dispute with Mr Major. Parliament is sovereign. Of course, that is true. But, Parliament cannot suspend the laws of gravity. HUMPHRYS: So, once put together, it has to stay together. FORSYTH: No. HUMPHRYS: Once that Parliament is in existence that is that - we have to deal with it. FORSYTH: I think that if Labour set up such a Parliament, I think it will lead up to the breakup of the United Kingdom. Now, as a Unionist that is something which I will campaign against. HUMPHRYS: Right. FORSYTH: Once it is established - if it is established by a Labour Government - it will be very difficult to recreate the conditions, the advantageous conditions which Scotland enjoys, which has brought about unparalleled prosperity and very high standards of public service under a Tory Unionist Government. HUMPHRYS: Michael Forsyth, thank you very much, indeed. ...ooo0ooo...