................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DR MO MOWLAM INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 28.6.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has voted for an Assembly. That in itself is an achievement in terms of the peace process. But the make-up of the Assembly is what is now worrying an awful lot of people - not least the man who will become first Minister; David Trimble. His Party, the Ulster Unionists, do have more seats than any other but it is terribly divided and it would take only a handful of his members to vote with the "No" camp to bring the work of the Assembly to a standstill. And they are threatening to do just that if the IRA doesn't start getting rid of its weapons. So Mr Trimble needs all the help he can get. The person who still has the responsibility for making sure that it doesn't all fall apart is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mo Mowlam and she's in our Belfast Studio now. Good afternoon Mrs Mowlam. DR MO MOWLAM MP: Good afternoon John. Can I have a bit more volume? HUMPHRYS: I hope you can. Can you hear me now? MOWLAM: Yeah. HUMPHRYS: People don't normally complain about the level of my voice. But, how's that? Can you hear me alright now? MOWLAM: That's much better thank you. HUMPHRYS: Good, excellent. You'll obviously be feeling very pleased that it's all happened. You've had the Referendum, we've had the Assembly, the election for the Assembly. Most people - the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland - did vote for people in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. But, there is this problem with those who do not support it and it is because of the make-up of the Assembly, Looking a bit fragile this morning isn't it? MOWLAM: It's not as clear cut as one would have liked. But let us - you just did - let us dwell on the positive to begin with because now we've had two votes by the people of Northern Ireland when more than seventy per cent - both times - have voted for the Good Friday Agreement and then, more importantly, for Parties that are supportive of implementing it. So, in that sense, it is a very clear, positive message from people and even though the turnout, the balance of the Parties is tight, it is still a workable majority of the two communities in the Assembly; and so if there is a determination and a will, which I believe there is, particularly by David Trimble and John Hume, and other Parties, then I think we are still on track to make more progress. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. It's a workable majority given that there are no defections. But David Trimble is obviously a worried man. I mean you could see this moring and indeed hearing him yesterday, He looks and sounds a very worried man. And with reason, because it takes only a few of his Party to vote with the No crowd to block all progress and that's where the worry comes isn't it? MOWLAM: There are difficulties. No one ever said this would be easy, There are hurdles to overcome. But, I hope that in the end people look at what the people of Northern Ireland want and yes you can do the sums and say it's going to be tough every time. But don't forget we have the Alliance Party, we have the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition with two that are unaligned and so there is room for manoeuvre and I just hope that some of the folk in the Ulster Unionist Party are able to look to the longterm and see that this is an Agreement that no one wanted a hundred per cent but everybody had a bit of what they wanted and it's a package. And as that, I believe there is still a good chance to move it forward. HUMPHRYS: But it can't move forward until the Executive has been put into place. That's obviously an absolutely crucial stage in this process and that needs the support of most of the Unionists. On paper, at the moment, it has it, but, it won't happen -- are you hearing me alright? MOWLAM: Yes I am John. HUMPHRYS: Ah, good. It-It won't happen unless the IRA begins to get rid of its weapons because so many of those Unionists are saying we will not support it unless and until the IRA begins to get rid of its weapons. That's the problem isn't it? MOWLAM: That is one of the difficulties that we face in the future but there are many others too. Let me just say on the decommissioning issue: Decommissioning is absolutely central to the Agreement. You can't have a fudge between Democracy and terror and decommissioning is a crucial part of the Agreement. But, equally, there are other parts: the Assembly, the North South Ministerial Council, prisoner releases accelerated. There is a package and it's the package that's important and quite clearly none of it will move forward unless all of it does. And that's why, during the summer, the months ahead, it is incumbent upon us as Government along with the Irish, where it's relevant, to work with the Parties and the Assembly folk to get to a point where there is progress on all of those dimensions, Decommissioning as I say is a key one and we are going to implement on Monday the more mechanisms from the decommissioning body on how it will happen. If we take one out and concentrate on it we're not going to more forward. If we take all four together and have progress on all of them - and it needs progress on all of them - and if there isn't built into the Agreement is if one bit isn't working there can be a call for review and the Prime Minister's made it very clear that he will support such a call. HUMPHRYS: So how can you help David Trimble in this vital decommissioning area? What can he do to try and bring pressure, perhaps, on Sinn Fein, on the IRA, to start that thing going? MOWLAM: I will put pressure on all Parties, including Sinn Fein, including the PUP and the DUP who, sadly, aren't represented in the Assembly but on all the Parties to do what they can - not just in terms of decommissioning but to have a positive attitude to the other dimensions of the Agreement at the same time because it's progress on all, confidence building on all, which will get progress on any of them. And, there won't be Parties around the table unless we get progress on all of them. So, that's the focus that we have to have for the next couple of months. I would, equally, put pressure on the Parties in relation to Drumcree because the Party Leaders and the Assembly people now can, at this very crucial time, see what they can do to find, in the end, the best way forward by talking in an
accommodation on the difficult issues of Drumcree and parades. HUMPHRYS: Can I come back to that, in just a second and stay with decommissioning, for a moment because the point that-that David Trimble makes and he has a letter to prove it - we've all seen it - obviously, from the Prime Minister, from Mr Blair - saying the process of decommissioning should begin straight away. No 'Ifs' 'ands' or 'buts' about it - straight away. MOWLAM: Yes. There is no 'Ifs' or 'Buts'. I don't have any weapons, neither does the Prime Minister; neither do David Trimble or John Hume but we will put all pressure on and make it absolutely clear that decommissioning is an essential part of the Agreement. Let me put it like this, John. If I sit here this afternoon and say 'Nothing's happening' as Jeffrey Donaldson and others want me to- HUMPHRYS: Jeffrey Donaldson is one of the members of Mr Trimble's Party who is unhappy with the way it's going. MOWLAM: Yeah. Although he has to look at what consent and popular opinion says, at the same time. But, let's just hypothesise. He is putting himself in the position that the Conservatives did and the Conservatives are now joining him, sadly, after all the support we gave them but that's another issue. But, if you put it up as a precondition, without any of the others, you are not implementing the Agreement. Now, the Prime Minister is very clear, as am I, that decommissioning has to start. But, so do all the other dimensions. HUMPHRYS: And, by- MOWLAM: And, progress on all of them, John, that will get us to where we want to be. HUMPHRYS: And, by decomissioning we mean beginning the process of actually handing over weapons, actually physically handing over weapons or semtex, or whatever it happens to be. We're quite clear about that, are we? MOWLAM: We are clear that it means decommissioning of weapons. The specific mechanism is we have a body under General John de Chastelaine with some helpers and advisers who've got into a whole lot of different mechanisms. Some Parties have interlocutors in place to talk to the decommissioning body. It's there, where progress can be made and I hope made quickly. HUMPHRYS: Right. But, it's not just about talking, is it? MOWLAM: No. HUMPHRYS: It's actually about handing over those weapons. Not good enough for John Hume to say: It doesn't matter if they don't give them up, so long as they don't use them. It, actually, involves them giving up their weapons, doesn't it? MOWLAM: Unless we get concrete progress on all the dimensions in a sense the Good Friday Agreement is the plans. We've now got to build the peace and that building, whether it be in terms of the Assembly, the North-South Ministerial Council, prisoner releases, equality of rights and Human Rights Commissions, whether those are the basis or in relation to decommissioning it all has to start materialising because if what you want doesn't materialise, you'll disappear and if what I want - if say we were talks participants - doesn't materialise, I'll disappear and that's why this is a crucial period. But, I'm confident that everybody is determined to make it work. HUMPHRYS: I'm slightly surprised that you say you're confident because we hear nothing from Sinn Fein to encourage that optimism, do we? I mean, they say: ah, look, there's a two year period during which we've got to get on with this decomissioning business but this is where the misunderstandings - if that's what they are - creep in, isn't it? Because the other side say: No, no! And, you mentioned Geoffrey Donaldson. They say we will not begin the process of setting up this Executive, unless and until weapons have been handed over - perfectly clear about that. MOWLAM: And, what I would say to them all, John, is the Good Friday Agreement is a package. We've said all along you can't cherry pick. There are four or five different dimensions. Some like one dimension, some like another. It can't be renegotiated. It can't be redefined. The Prime Minister took a lot of time in May making sure that there was clarity as to what the Good Friday Agreement actually contained. Now, we've got that. We have to move on all of it. And, that is why I'm confident because they all know that and, unless, we do that, we're not going to make progress. And, I believe, that the Parties have shown a determination and courage to want to make progress and there's no doubt what the people of Northern Ireland want. HUMPHRYS: But, Sinn Fein has shown absolutely no inclination to-to encourage the IRA to start getting rid of its weapons? MOWLAM: Well, Sinn Fein know the position is, clearly - as do the PUP and the other Parties involved in the talks. Decommissioning is a central dimension and that is up to them, to encourage people to show results on that dimension of progress. HUMPHRYS: Right. MOWLAM: As others will on other dimensions. HUMPHRYS: So- MOWLAM: They have to happen together because at the base of this it's about building confidence. If you're going to do this, I'm going to do this and I believe that we're still on course for that to happen. HUMPHRYS: Right. So to be absolutely clear about this, you accept and understand that there will not be an Executive set up unless, until, the IRA starts handing over some weapons? You believe that to be the position? MOWLAM: I believe that we need decommissioning as an essential part of this Agreement. The timing: I am not putting timing on it because that's what the previous- HUMPHRYS: Ah, well, that's crucial isn't it? MOWLAM: No but I'm saying it has to happen before this progress. You've got to get progress on all the dimensions John and if I put a precondition down on one, I am violating the Agreement. I and the Prime Minister believe that decommissioning is central. It has to happen otherwise we won't have a process. HUMPHRYS: Right. MOWLAM: But- HUMPHRYS: And that-yeah? MOWLAM: I'm not going to use your words and put down preconditions. It's what the previous Government got on a hook on and that is not helpful. But let me say very clearly the process will not move forward unless there is decommissioning along the lines that are outlined in the Good Friday Agreement: a number of dimensions, committment to democratic peaceful non-violent means, end to violence such as punishment beatings, not using proxy. But,here's a whole host and I still believe that the Parties know what has to be done. Let's give ourselves the summer to see what progress we can make on these dimensions. HUMPHRYS: Right. MOWLAM: Because I believe that during the summer we will see progress on all of them and if we don't, we are not going to make the progress necessary. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, because during the summer you're supposed to start the business of prisoner release. Well that can't happen until they've started to give up weapons, can it? MOWLAM: We have to move all the dimensions together, If not none of them will happen. But I am not gonna put time conditions, I'm not gonna barter two prisoners for a thing of Semtex. I want there to be a degree of communication, confidence and support that we move on the dimensions together and then I believe we have a chance of making it happen. HUMPHRYS: Right, just so long as we're quite clear that when you talk about decommissioning, you're not talking about a process of talks and negotiations and discussions and meetings and all that. You are actually talking about the physical business of giving up weapons and or explosives. That's what we're talking about isn't it? MOWLAM: I'm talking about a process. I'm talking about- HUMPHRYS: Ah, well, there's a difference isn't there? MOWLAM: Well, there's a process with two years on. But you know and I know- HUMPHRYS: But you're gonna wait two years before we start having the Executive set up do you? MOWLAM: No and unless we get them all working together we'll have none of them set up. But what you're trying to get to a position is to say:Next week we'll have all the weapons and decommissioning- HUMPHRYS: No! MOWLAM: We won't! HUMPHRYS: No, I'm not saying that. MOWLAM: But we've got to have something. HUMPHRYS: Ah, right, exactly and by something you mean a couple-Even if it's a couple of old rusty Armalites, that'll do it. So long as that business has begun. MOWLAM: What I mean is we could get an interlocutor in place with the Decommissioning Body, that we can look at how it's going to happen and have evidence that things are moving. HUMPHRYS: So something is actually going on there? MOWLAM: Yes. HUMPHRYS: Right. MOWLAM: Okay? HUMPHRYS: Well, I suspect that as a result of that exchange a lot of people in the Ulster Unionists will still say: your Geoffrey Donaldsons will still say that's not good enough, we want those weapons. But you've said what you were going to say on that clearly, so let me just- MOWLAM: Yes. But, all I'd say is that it is the Agreement. They know what the Agreement is, the people signed up to it and we will implement the Agreement and that I am categorical on. HUMPHRYS: Would it help it - would it help - it would help, would it not, from Sinn Fein's point of view, from the IRA's point of view, if you began what they call the process of demilitarisation? They-they
obviously see no difference between the IRA and the British Army. They say: Look you go into South Armagh, it's-it's a state at war, there's watch towers all over the place, helicopters buzzing all over the place, squaddies all over the place. Start getting rid of some of that! MOWLAM: Again, you see this is an issue that has to happen in parallel when progress is happening on others. Now, on demilitarisation it's a very difficult issue because there are areas where we still have splinter groups that don't support the ceasefire and in fact want to destroy it; working some across the border from the Republic but some in Northern Ireland too. And what we have to do is put the security - as any government should - the security of the people uppermost. And I can assure people that whether it be parades, or whether it be general security faced with splinter groups still indulging in violence we will be very tough and very clear on our policies. But, alongside that, we've had ceasefires from three or four different ex-paramilitary groups that the people in those communities want to see some progress on. So it's a very, very difficult balance. And what we have done is decrease the number of troops and helicopters in certain areas where there is not the same level of threat but it has to be based on the level of threat. So, yes it will happen as progress is made and violence decreases. HUMPHRYS: You talk about the parades there. You mentioned it earlier. This is again a desperately sensitive issue, isn't it? It would help David Trimble wouldn't it - at least it would not, and let's put it the other way, let's use the opposite argument: it will undermine David Trimble's position even more if, when the Parades Commission meets - I think it's tomorrow isn't it? - to talk about the Drumcree March, the great one, the one that caused all the trouble last year, next year-next weekend. If you were to assure him, David Trimble, through the commission, and obviously you have some influence with the commission - well, we'll come to that in a second - if you were able to say: Look, we're not going to mess about with your parades, you have your parades. Because if now you say to him, that's going to be, you won't be able to march down there or you won't be able to do this or that, it's going to cause him more problems isn't it? MOWLAM: I only shake my head, John, because last year I spent two months doing my best to find an accommodation and didn't find one and we'd promised at the Election that we'd implement the North Commission, which was to set up a Parades Commission, which is now functioning and is an impartial, independent body because they wanted-The main complaint we had last year was the process of deciding what happened on parades was not open and transparent. So, I am not part of the process and, in fact, I am called to a final appeal, if the Chief Constable asks for me so to do. But, the Parades Commission will make a decision independently, having talked to people on all sides and made a decision and that has the force of law and I hope we don't get to that. I hope we find an accommodation before because if you get to a decision, in a sense, we haven't succeeded in finding a way through. But, no, I don't influence the Parades Commissions. They will make their own decision. But, I hope that everybody will do what they can to not create a situation, where we have a difficult time on Saturday. If all the political leaders talk to their communities, I believe we have a chance of avoiding the situation we had at Drumcree particularly badly the last two years. HUMPHRYS: But, you will have taken note of what David Trimble said this morning when he said he was very concerned about this. He said I hope there is no foolish decision taken by the Parades Commission. He's worried about plunging the whole Province back into conflict - as you know. MOWLAM: He's worried, I'm worried. I have to tell you, most people I meet in Northern Ireland are very worried and the Parades Commission is in a difficult position - it always is. It's a No Win situation, it's a conflict of rights. And, there's no answer as I found difficult last year and to my cost that there is no answer that will get you to please everybody and decrease the level of violence, unless the groups themselves sit down, talk and find a way through. And, so, I think it is the greatest concern of many people now. But, it's up to people in those communities to do what they can to say to people: You don't have to, we'll find a way through because that's the basis of where we can build for the future. HUMPHRYS: But, do you see it as part of your role now to try and bolster David Trimble because he has a fiendishly difficult task to do, doesn't he? And, it's in your interest that he succeeds in that task? MOWLAM: I will do everything I can to help the Parties, particularly, as you say, David, who's in a difficult position, although it is a large part of the internal Party position and that is nothing to do with me, whichever the Party. But, I will do whatever I can to help all the Parties and, particularly, those when they're at a particularly difficult time, to help the process forward. And, if a particular group is in difficulty, then I of course talk and listen and see what I can. But, one of the things that the Assembly does is we're putting in place structures where it is the local politicians that decide the issues for themselves and for the people they represent. Not just bread and butter issues but the functioning of Northern Ireland. So, of course, he's in a difficult position in the weeks and months ahead. Other Parties will be in the same position of difficulty for different reasons and I will do all I can to support them because they've shown courage and determination, to get Northern Ireland to where it is now. HUMPHRYS: Given all of these problems, though, that we've been looking at, in the last few minutes - it is going to be impossible, isn't it - at least, immensely difficult - I know you hate the word 'impossible' - you always say it doesn't exist! MOWLAM: I do. HUMPHRYS: 'Immensely difficult' to meet the timetable that you're aiming for - that's to say Executive Meeting this summer, next Autumn - the coming Autumn - the North-South institution should be in place; early next year, handing over power to the Assembly - hugely difficult to meet that timetable, isn't it? MOWLAM: It is tough and I've said frequently in the last couple of weeks that getting to the Good Friday Agreement was not easy and, actually, making it work is going to be equally tough. But, you see, I believe there is a desire and a confidence, despite what hits you in the face for the next week - which is Drumcree - to get there. We've got the best chance we've had for this century, probably many, many more. And, yes, we'll have difficult times; yes, I'll talk to you one day and it'll look difficult and terrible. Next week, it'll look better and what you keep having to do in Northern Ireland is when a problem hits you in the face, stop. Think about it, go 'round it, look at it another angle and find a way through because we can and I'm confident that we will. HUMPHRYS: Mo Mowlam, thank you very much, indeed. MOWLAM: Thank you, John. ...oooOooo...