................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.3.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: There have been some positive noises this past week from both the British and the Irish Governments on the progress of the Northern Ireland talks. But there's not long to go before the deadline for an agreement and in the past few weeks they've been more preoccupied with who's present at the talks and who's absent than actually getting on with it. And that's not about to end. Sinn Fein won't be at the table tomorrow even though they're now entitled to be. And when or if they do return - after a meeting with Tony Blair - the Ulster Unionists have made it clear they won't be welcome. So is the optimism really justified? The Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble is in our Belfast Studio. Good afternoon Mr Trimble. DAVID TRIMBLE MP Good day. HUMPHRYS: You've always said that Sinn Fein don't deserve to be at the talks, is that still your view? TRIMBLE: It's always been our view and the recent shootings and bombings because the Republican movement was involved in the bombs that have gone off recently, even though the Government are turning a blind eye and refusing to recognise that fact. I mean these acts of violence underline the rightness of our assessment that Sinn Fein have not abandoned violence and committed themselves to the democratic process. They've had plenty of opportunity to. In the last six months, they had plenty of chance-opportunities to prove that they were committed to the democratic process, that they wanted to be involved in serious discussions and they haven't taken those opportunities. Instead, we've seen the violence of recent weeks and months. HUMPHRYS: So what will you do if they do come back? TRIMBLE: Well we shall consider that. We have some thoughts and we'll do what we do, when we do it, and we'll tell you about it at the time. HUMPHRYS: We are, as I said in my introduction, getting some optimistic sounds coming out of London and Dublin, the governments there at any rate. Is progress being made in your view? TRIMBLE: Well, I wish people would be realistic. There are people spinning on behalf of the British Government and the Irish Government and as you say making optimistic noises. And it's obscuring the fact that there are still real differences that have to be addressed and real issues to be resolved and it's giving people a false impression and indeed actually causing some anxiety in some quarters. So, I would be happier if those people who are dealing with, you know the press on behalf of Government, would do so in a realistic and honest way. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at one of the reasons why there may be a bit of optimism and that is the report that you, the Ulster Unionists, and Dublin, have reached a sort of agreement and you can tell me how much of an agreement perhaps, on this question, what's called Articles Two and Three of the Irish Constitution; that is to say Dublin's claim to Northern Ireland? Are you getting anywhere with that? TRIMBLE: Well we've had some discussions with Irish Government Ministers and officials in which we've made it clear what we think should be done. We've had optimistic noises from them but I can't yet say that we're satisfied that there will be the real commitment to change which is necessary. So, again, there isn't-the substance isn't there yet and I think it's too soon to say that this issue is resolved. HUMPHRYS: But you're making progress. TRIMBLE: Well, as I say we've been talking to them. We've been trying to make progress. I am a little bit disappointed, actually, that we haven't made more progress. HUMPHRYS: Well, perhaps you would be wouldn't you because it's your position, absolutely unequivocally that those Articles - Articles Two and Three - must be dropped? TRIMBLE: The territorial claim must disappear. There is no question about that at all. There's got to be an open recognition. And you see, without recognition, without respect for the Electorate in Northern Ireland, for the people of Northern Ireland, how can there be any co-operation? So this is-it merely clears the way for the possibility of a civilised relationship. And it's something that the Irish ought to be doing, ever in breach of International Law and the position that they're adopting. It is ridiculous at this end of the Twentieth Century, in Western Europe, for these sort of primitive attitudes to continue. HUMPHRYS: But clearly you are of the belief that they may be moving towards that position. I mean you're talking to them. There is something moving there, isn't that what you are saying? TRIMBLE: Yes, but I'm saying that we're not there yet. HUMPHRYS: Yeah but do you think you're on the way there? TRIMBLE: Yes, well I hope we do get there and we hope we do see the changes which we consider to be necessary. HUMPHRYS: The reason I press this a little bit is that Gerry Adams has written an article this morning in which he says that if they do drop those Articles Two and Three, then that is the end of any agreement at all, as far as Sinn Fein is concerned. It takes precisely the opposite position from what you're taking. TRIMBLE: Well we did notice, as I said earlier, that in the talks over the last six months, that no serious effort was made by Sinn Fein to engage in the real issues. Indeed their position has toughened in some respects. And this comment by Adams actually toughens their position further. There was a time several months ago when Adams was hinting that he would be prepared to accept some changes in Article Two, now he's toughened his position. I don't think Sinn Fein have any serious intention of engaging in the talks. I think they'll barely be manoeuvring and I think the bombs and the shootings of the last few months are a clearer indication of where the Republican Movement is. HUMPHRYS: But I just wonder what's happening between Sinn Fein and Dublin if you believe there is - you say not a great deal - and certainly not enough obviously, but if there is a little bit of movement in your direction from Dublin, at least you're able to have constructive talks with them. And yet this is the position as far as Gerry Adams sees it, which is that there's absolutely not the smallest possibility of it happening. TRIMBLE: Well, you're-it's an interesting point you're making there that the Adams article may be directed more at the Irish Government than at anyone else. HUMPHRYS: What about the other absolutely vital issues here? Let's look at the so-called North-South bodies. Now your position on that, again, is absolutely firm. Is it that there must be that whatever North-South body is set up, it must have no executive powers whatsoever? TRIMBLE: I think what people fail to appreciate is the tremendous step that Unionism is contemplating in saying that there can be a relationship and indeed a framework, an institutional framework for a relationship between Belfast and Dublin. And I think people must recognise that the furthest that can go is to discuss matters of co-operation. It's essentially a consultative arrangement. To go further than that is to create an embryonic Governmental structure. Now, if the people-if the consent principle means anything, if you respect the views of the people of Northern Ireland who have said that they wish to be part of the United Kingdom, then they must be part of the United Kingdom and not part of some other-or subject to some other governmental structure. That's the issue:are we part of the United Kingdom or not? And if you're establishing a third centre of Government in Ireland, then you're transferring part of British sovereignty to this structure. Now that's what's really meant behind this and the use of the word executive, which sounds to some people not so threatening, is obscuring the real issue. HUMPHRYS: But, I note you say 'essentially' constructive - essentially consultative - there. You don't say 'absolutely', only consultative? TRIMBLE: Well, the arrangements will be essentially in our view and if our view is to follow, there would be essentially consultative now, a consultative arrangement may result in some areas of joint action - as has happened in the past - but the body itself will not acquire any function, other than a consultative function. Now, obviously, there are points of detail to be looked at here and I want - rather than get bogged down in the detail we want - to keep our eye on the matter of principle. And, the matter of principle is whether any Governmental powers are going to be ceded to a body that's outside the United Kingdom and would have Governmental functions with regard to the people of Northern Ireland and that is an absolute. That is an issue which is not acceptable, which we cannot contemplate and I bring you back to my first point. People are failing to recognise the significance of Unionism saying: yes, we will have a relationship and we will provide for a consultative relationship. HUMPHRYS: A relationship with Dublin, of course, you're talking about here. TRIMBLE: Yes. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. TRIMBLE: But, the line has to be drawn there and equally important that relationship has to take account of the totality of relationships within the British Isles because if we're talking about consultation and co-operation, then, we've got to deal with the realities of the matter and the reality of the matter is that even for the Republic of Ireland all the relationships on the East-West axis are more important than those on the North-South axis. HUMPHRYS: That's to say London and Dublin, as opposed to Dublin and Belfast - yeah. TRIMBLE: That's the deal.. It's not just London
and Dublin. It's to deal with the British Isles, as a whole. HUMPHRYS: So, again, listening quite carefully to the language that you're using there, you're not-You talk about co-operation, the need to develop this kind of co-operation. Obviously, co-operation encompasses all manner of areas, doesn't it? You're not actually here saying: alright, we will have this kind of council and absolutely nothing else. You're talking about it? TRIMBLE: Well, we are, of course, engaged in the talks and we're talking-There's a lot of serious discussion still going on but there are important issues which have not yet been agreed. And, there is still a fundamental difference in approach and I must say that Irish Nationalists - by here I'm thinking of the SDLP and the Irish Government - still are not coming to terms with the reality of Northern Ireland and the views of the Northern Ireland people. And, they haven't yet learned the lessons of Sunningdale. It was, funny enough, an SDLP Member who said these talks were Sunningdale for slow learners but unfortunately there are those within Nationalism who haven't started to learn yet. HUMPHRYS: Is it absolutely out of the question that you might be able to reach agreement on these issues? Within the timetable? Even the slightly extended timetable that the British Government, that Mo Mowlam is working towards? TRIMBLE: The timetable has been abbreviated, not extended. HUMPHRYS: Well, sorry - yeah. TRIMBLE: We're trying to reach agreement before Easter. Now, there is some difficulty I understand - not a difficulty as far as we're concerned, not a difficulty as far as the United Kingdom is concerned - in proceeding rapidly afterwards. And, certainly, our view would be that if we get agreement at Easter - before Easter - then, we should move as quickly as possible thereafter. And I do not see - I've heard no good reason for delay. I'm not quite clear what the Secretary of State has been saying recently on this subject because we haven't had the chance to discuss it with her yet. HUMPHRYS: No. But, you've heard what she said on the media and things like that. I mean, when you say 'realistic': including Sinn Fein? You think that that could happen? TRIMBLE: No, I didn't say including Sinn Fein. HUMPHRYS: No. I know you didn't. I was asking you. TRIMBLE: No. Because as I said earlier, Sinn Fein have not been realistic and they haven't been-They have been given the opportunity to but they haven't engaged seriously with other Parties in the talks. HUMPHRYS: Are you, yourself, in a position to deliver an agreement here because one hears that you're coming under a certain amount of pressure - considerable pressure - within your own Party; that you may well be challenged for the Leadership of the Ulster Unionists? TRIMBLE: Well, one only holds - within the Ulster Unionist Party - you only hold the Leadership for one year. It's an annual election and so, of course, we will be coming up shortly to that, as we do every year. In terms of the position within Unionism, the-I would refer you to the opinion poll commissioned by BBC Northern Ireland and publicised in the course of the week - very interesting and, I think, close to the truth in that it indicated within Unionism, generally, there is a one third, two-thirds split; that two-thirds of Unionists are-do endorse the approach that I and others have taken through the talks. But, there's a large slice of Unionism that is very uncertain, if not opposed to the process and that's true of Unionism, generally. The position within the Ulster Unionist Party, the balance would be a wee bit more in favour of the line we've taken - it's maybe an eighty-twenty split. HUMPHRYS: There, we must end it. David Trimble, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. TRIMBLE: OK. Thank you. HUMPHRYS: And, that's it for this week. We'll be back next week. Until then, goodbye. ...oooOooo...