................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DAVID TRIMBLE INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 5.4.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: And let's now go North to Belfast, where the leader of the Ulster Unionists, David Trimble is. Good afternoon to you Mr Trimble. DAVID TRIMBLE MP: Good day. HUMPHRYS: You have made it quite clear that you are not gonna walk out of these talks, notwithstanding some reports this morning that you are in there until the bitter end. So, are there still areas where you are prepared to make compromises to reach an agreement? TRIMBLE: There are areas where we are prepared to continue discussing, negotiating and seeing if it is possible to evolve an agreement. And of course if an agreement is going to be arrived at, it's only going to be worthwhile if the Parties to it are happy with it and that each feel that it meets their needs and it will be one that their own supporters can endorse. HUMPHRYS: One of those areas, presumably, is the status, the way in which the Northern Ireland, the elected Northern Ireland Assembly works. You have been opposed to having a powerful sort of Cabinet, executive type set-up running things. You are prepared to be a bit flexible on that, are you? TRIMBLE: Well, our model for a Northern Ireland Assembly is one that departs radically from the Westminister practice and taking ideas from the European Parliament, seeks to achieve inclusion through proportion-proportionality. Distributing the posts in proportion, using what may be not familiar to most people in the British system, of what's called the d'Hondt formula. So that Parties that have any significant degree of electoral support will find themselves all sharing in the administration. Now that is a radically different approach. It is quite different to the Westminister model. I'm somewhat amused actually to see that those who are demanding or clinging on to the Westminster model, include Irish Nationalists who complained when Stormont ran on the same-on that basis. But, however, that's one of the ironies of history I suppose. We do want to see a system which includes people and gives everybody, as many people as possible, if not everybody, the opportunity to participate and feel that they're making some contribution to the process. It's a rather unusual way of doing things but in the particular circumstances we have in Northern Ireland, I think this is the best way to proceed. HUMPHRYS: But it has been reported that you're-you're - I used the word 'flexible ' earlier - that is one of the things that you are talking about and you're not irrevocably locked into your own- TRIMBLE: Yes, but there isn't as much of a problem on this issue as some of the media would give you to think because the principle of proportionality is, I think, widely accepted in the process. And what we need to do is to tease out our understanding of it and to see how it's going to operate in practice. It does create a number of practical problems, there's no doubt about that. If you want efficiency in decision-taking then by all means go to the Westminster current system, underpinned by collective responsibility. So if you want inclusion you have to go a different route. HUMPHRYS: But you are prepared to counter, then, some kind of Cabinet Executive system, given that it meets other requirements for proportionality? TRIMBLE: I can see a need to co-ordinate and to liaise. But look, it is important actually, for people to understand. If you have proportionality with a mechanism such as d'Hondt, you cannot have collective responsibility. And that is, actually. That's just a consequence of the system. Collective responsibility exists because Ministers are chosen by the Prime Minister, who dismisses them if they don't all pull together. Now, with proportionality, you don't have hire and fire powers vested in the individual. So you won't have a Cabinet. HUMPHRYS: Let's look at another area where you have real problems and that is the North-South Ministerial Council. You've said, you've been quite clear about this, that it should not be a separate legal entity with any kind of executive powers. Now this is fundamental stuff. Can that be resolved? TRIMBLE: Absolutely. The points that I've made are fundamental. We're prepared to-and it's a huge step for Unionism, a huge step for Unionism, to enter into a structured relationship with an Irish Government and that is something that, as you say, has been bitterly opposed in the past. But if we do, within that relationship, we'd be bringing together people who, in their own right, exercise executive power. But the form in which they meet will not have any power vested in it. It's not going to be an independent Government. Again, I'm amazed at some of the things that people put around at the moment, imagining that you can create a third centre of Government that somehow is going to be independent from the democratic bodies in the Irish Republic and in Northern Ireland. It just simply isn't practical, quite apart from being completely unacceptable to us. HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, you used the word completely unacceptable there, which implies there's no give. There are other areas of enormous difficulty, as well, that we haven't discussed this morning- TRIMBLE: But-but-but- HUMPHRYS: -decommissioning, well, I'm thinking of things like- TRIMBLE: If I can come back just to the last one- HUMPHRYS: Yeah go on. TRIMBLE: While I've stated that the nature of the body is, as I've said, essentially consultative, although it brings together people with executive powers. I don't think the difficulties here-I think to put it around another way, I think the difficulties here can be overcome if people are sensible in their approach to them. Unfortunately, we've had quite a bit of what I would regard as "posturing" this week and people setting out an impossible position, but again if we come and we work through the practicalities of it, I think it will not be that difficult. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's look at some of the other areas then that on the face of it, again, look immensely difficult: decommissioning of terrorist weapons, equality between Catholics and Protestants, policing, what's going to happen to so-called political prisoners - enormously difficult areas. Now what is being said is that they perhaps can be left, you can do the deal, you can sign the agreement on Thursday - if that's when it happens - and then you can put those aside to be dealt with by either international or independent commissions of some sort. Does that make sense to you? TRIMBLE: Well I think we need to look at the situations, we need to look at the detail of them. Some of the areas you mention are difficult, some are not. I mean, we've no problem with equality. We're all for it. We'd like to have some. Unionists have been unequal in Northern Ireland for the last twenty years and equality would be very welcome so we've not a problem with that. HUMPHRYS: Terrorist weapons? TRIMBLE: Well, I agree with the Secretary of State, Mo Mowlam, when she said to the talks on Monday that if decommissioning doesn't occur before the agreement then the agreement will have to contain effective provisions related to it. HUMPHRYS: So that has to be sorted before Thursday. That cannot be put to one side and dealt with by some sort of independent commission. TRIMBLE: I said that the agreement will have to contain effective provisions with regard to it, I have a fairly clear idea myself of what those should be and I don't see them as a problem, I must say. The thing that would bother me in the list that you went through, is the question of the police. Now, here we are concerned at the suggestion of some people that the Royal Ulster Constabulary should be completely restructured, broken up into separate forces, two-tier policing. We see that as quite a horrifying prospect because what it really means is giving an official status to the paramilitaries who are going around beating up people on housing estates these days. I think that is an appalling prospect and I don't think that any responsible person should endorse it. Unfortunately, some people in responsible positions have - and I think this is quite, quite, a very considerable move to it. HUMPHRYS: But again, is that something that could be dealt with after an agreement, so long as there is a reference to it in the agreement, could it be dealt with by some other- TRIMBLE: No, we are very concerned about this issue. We want to look at it very carefully and I think-we want to see it properly dealt with in the agreement. HUMPHRYS: A lot to be done by Thursday. Can it be done? TRIMBLE: Well, it doesn't really matter in a sense. In fact, as Reg Impey regularly says, and quite rightly too, it doesn't matter when the deadline is it's only going to be in the last matter of hours when people actually face up to the issues and move off the rather impossible positions that they've been on - or some of them have been on. We have a very clear view of the practicalities. We hope that other people will work their way through from the postures they've adopted to look at the practicalities. It is possible that it could be done. I must say all through this we've thought it's odds against but the one thing I am sure of is that there will be no lack of effort from the Ulster Unionists. HUMPHRYS: David Trimble, thank you very much indeed. TRIMBLE: Thank you. ...oooOooo...