................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.6.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. The bookies have a new favourite for the leadership of the Tory Party: Kenneth Clarke. I'll be asking him why he thinks he's got what it takes to heal the wounds in the Party. That's after the News read by MOIRA STUART. NEWS HUMPHRYS: One hundred and sixty-four Conservative Members of Parliament will vote on Tuesday for a new Leader of their Party. There are five candidates and none of them will get enough votes to win outright then. But it's generally expected that Kenneth Clarke will get more votes than anyone else. That's because he's on the left of the Party and all the others are on the right - so their vote will split. But what about the next round when some of the other candidates perhaps drop out? Mr Clarke needs to win the support of THEIR backers. He says he can do it because he alone can unite the Party. Well Mr Clarke is in our Nottingham studio. Good afternoon to you. KENNETH CLARKE MP: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: Bit of a cheek that isn't it? "You're the one who can unite the Party" - given your record? CLARKE: Well I think that's what the electorate have got to aim at. The obvious aim is to unite the Party, unite the Party on the basis whereby it can revitalise its opposition credentials in Parliament and outside; start rebuilding policy, start rebuilding the organisation; and I think I certainly can unite the Party, precisely because I have not identified myself with any faction, or any particular view on any of the big issues. HUMPHRYS: What? You haven't identified yourself with Europe? CLARKE: I'm pro-European but there's a full range of opinion within the Party and whether you have a pro-European or an anti-European as leader, it's necessary for that leader to show that he can conduct, lead the Party on an inclusive basis and can lead on a basis which keeps every element of opinion inside. One of the mistakes about this election is too many of the commentators are assuming that the five of us who are candidates are kind of leading blocks and we can transfer blocks of votes to the others - we can't. There's a great bewildering range of preferences. And,
another mistake is to think we're all standing seeking a mandate for a particular policy - we are not. What the Party is having to choose is the most powerful and effective leader who can present a challenge to Tony Blair, prepare us for winning in five years' time, and unite the Party behind him in doing so; looking at policy in some depth on a considered basis as part of that. HUMPHRYS: Well perhaps the reason that we the commentators have reached those conclusions is because we look at the sorts of people who support the candidates. And in your case virtually all of your support has come from the sort of leftish wing of the Party - unsurprisingly - and from those who are most enthusiastic about Europe - unsurprisingly. CLARKE: But I'm-As you've already said I've got more MPs helping me and I'm going to get more MPs voting for me in the first ballot than any of the others. I think I'm doing quite strongly in the Party in the country, in the ballots being held amongst the Constituency Associations and in the MEPs, the House of Lords - we'll have to see what they all do. I think-Another thing, a point I make is, I think most of the people writing and talking about it are not quite sure who is going to vote for whom in all this. The figures we have are estimates and many MPs haven't declared. Some of the names that appear in the newspapers are not accurate. This in the end, so far as the Parliamentary vote is concerned, will be a hundred and sixty four people voting secretly on Tuesday and we'll see what the outcome is then. But it's-it's not a mandate for a policy. It is certainly not right fighting left. I trust it's no faction fighting any faction and there's no candidate in this election who can get all the people who might vote for him on first preference to vote for somebody else in the second. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. But, I mean, what we're seeing now - you say that - but what we're seeing this morning - particularly loads of reports about it this morning - is that the rightish candidates are now talking about ganging up to keep you out. And, there's a very real possibility of that happening isn't there? How are you going to deal with that? CLARKE: Yeah. Well I read that but I have no idea how accurate it is. As you say there are four right wing candidate, so whether they are going to gang up or not I've no-no-no idea. They're more right wing than I am. I suppose it's broadly-as broadly described. HUMPHRYS: I think we can assume that- yes. CLARKE: But if they were to line up that doesn't mean the people who vote for them will line up with them. These-These - I will only repeat. So, I don't want to repeat what I've said before. There are not blocks of marshalled voters being led by one person who can turn round to them and tell them to vote for somebody else. If any of these candidates pulls out, including myself, if anyone of us pulls out, the people who voted for them in the first ballot will disperse themselves amongst the other candidates. HUMPHRYS: So have you got some commitments from some right wingers then? CLARKE: Yes, certainly. I'm quite - quite sure. HUMPHRYS: Who? Who? Names! Names! CLARKE: I'm not going to name people! It's a silly game! These lists in the newspapers which are not terribly accurate. Some Members of Parliament have chosen, publicly, to say who they're voting for. I'm glad to say John MacGregor has come out for me today. But others Members of Parliament are not and they're prefectly entitled not and they discuss it with their Associations. And these lists are just, you know, all part of the entertainment in the run up to the serious election on Tuesday when a hundred and sixty four Members of Parliament will go along to express their first preference. HUMPHRYS: Right. But, let's look at the reasons why I suggested you are the least, perhaps, likely of the candidates, ultimately, to unite the Party. Now you say that it isn't a question of one block against the other. But the fact is you represent the pro-Europe, the enthusiastic European policies, in the eyes of the others and in the eyes of many Members of Parliament. Therefore, it is going to be very difficult for you to persuade them to support you isn't it? Because you have - as they would put it - you have form! CLARKE: There's a healthy degree of scepticism about aspects of Europe throughout the Party. But I believe this country's future lies in the European Union. I believe we get benefit from it. I think for as long as any of these candidates, including myself, are likely to be in politics, Britain will be a leading Member of the European Union, and the key thing for Conservatives is to make sure that Union is the kind of Union we want. Now, this leadership election is not going to produce a great new policy for the Party. Whichever one of the five wins will not be able to turn round the next day and say: Well my views on Europe are this, therefore the Party's view is now this. What the Leader will of course do is lead a process of discussion which re-examines our policy on Europe and reacts to events and reacts to whatever the Labour Party do in Europe and produces a platform on which we can stand as strong indication to- HUMPHRYS: Right. CLARKE: -the country of what a Conservative Government would do vis-a-vis Europe. That's not going to be settled on Tuesday and the Tuesday after. And my position as the most experienced, by far, in European politics, the only one who has attended Councils of Ministers for well over ten years now, as probably knowing far more of the other politicians of Western Europe than any of the others, I think it's quite strong on that point. HUMPHRYS: Alright. So, I am - let's assume - that I am a moderately sceptical Conservative MP of the sort that you need if you are going to win this election. What can you say to persuade me that you don't represent the sort of Union of European policies that's going to scare me. Because you see, you talk about an ever closer union and you believe in - everybody talks about an ever closer union, who believes in that sort of future for Europe - and you believe in that and that worries me as this moderately sceptical Tory MP? CLARKE: Well, I would say to that moderately sceptical Tory MP: you're allowing my views to be slightly parodied. As everybody knows I'm against a United States of Europe. HUMPHRYS: Only I didn't say a 'United States of Europe'. I didn't even use that expression. CLARKE: I have never been a Federalist. I, actually, believe in a partnership of nation states. What I also believe is that the European Union is very important to us, that a lot of our prosperity and our future clout in the World depends upon it. What matters to us is that the British - British Conservatives, preferably - should insist that Europe sticks to liberal economics, free trade - that we don't have the social legislation, the protected labour market, protection in any other way that other people go for. In fact, that we should feel free to trade in the world and in Europe and pursue the business culture that has helped make this country so much more successful in past years and that the others - the Germans, the French, the Belgians, the Italians - have actually got to change their way of doing business; their way of running their labour markets, their way of facing up to the pressures of modern, global competition by moving in the direction that we moved under Mrs Thatcher and under John Major in the 1980s and 1990s. HUMPHRYS: Right. CLARKE: And, that's the Conservative view of Europe - the ...... HUMPHRYS: Well, that's - that may be it. That may be your- CLARKE: Who also believes in subsidiarity, deregulation and, actually, rather more effective at arguing for it, I think, than most other European politicians. HUMPHRYS: Well, well - fine. But, I'm still a bit concerned, you see, as this Tory MP who may, or may not, vote for you because you didn't answer my question there. You didn't answer the question. Do you, Ken Clarke, still believe in an ever-closer Union? CLARKE: Well, that's a phrase from a treaty to which the - HUMPHRYS: Mm! CLARKE: -Conservative Government signed up and to which we've all signed up. The nature of that union is the key issue. The issues I'm talking about - free trade versus protection, Social Chapter or no Social Chapter, proper competition policy that allows genuine competition across the Continent - those are the serious, daily issues. It's no good quoting at me a phrase from a treaty to which the entire Conservative Party assented- HUMPHRYS: Ah! But the reason- CLARKE: -many years ago and which as we see from the forthcoming conference at Amsterdam entirely depends on what you people wish to put upon it. And, I have a very precise view about the agenda at Amsterdam and I have a very precise view of the role of Britain in Europe and what kind of European Union we want. HUMPHRYS: Indeed. But, the reason that I - as the sceptical MP - put it to you is, because-Yah! ever closer union is, indeed, what we signed up to but I'm a bit uneasy about the way it has developed over the years and the way it's going to continue to develop. And, I, actually, now, want to repatriate some of those powers. I think, it's gone a bit too far and the old ratchet system has come in to force, where we give a little bit more and a little bit more and we never give anything back. Now, are you prepared to say to me - to persuade me: I'll give you a bit back. I'll fight too. Instead of rowing forward or interviewed staying stationary, I'll try and row back a little bit! CLARKE: No, I'm not, I'm afraid. Again - say, you're the Eurosceptic MP - you're not a softline Eurosceptic, you're a hardline Eurosceptic. I'm against this - I'm against the transfer of powers. I mean, I don't see a case for further transfer of powers. We said we would oppose that at Amsterdam. Tony Blair comes back having transferred any more powers from London to the Union, I would oppose that! I think, I would oppose it very effectively - probably with more credibility than any of the four Eurosceptic candidates for the leadership. I'm going to that as a Europhile - no case for it. Now, if you're talking about repatriation of powers, you're actually talking about going back to the past treaties, reopening the Treaty of Rome as amended, - saying the British now want a new relationship with Western Europe. No doubt, you can make that sound awfully attractive in debate but the fact is, it's not obtainable, you can't negotiate it; there's no basis upon which you can go back and rebase our membership of the club - that is all soft-sounding words for a major crisis about our Membership of the European Union. HUMPHRYS: Right. CLARKE: People who use phrases like the repatriation of powers are, actually, trying to head us for a crisis over our Membership. I disagree with that and I'd also say - going back to the point of this election - that is not a basis for unifying the Conservative Party. That is not a basis for fighting Tony Blair's Labour Government over the next five years. It's a way of dividing the Party - to go for formulae of that kind - and this leadership election should not be the basis of trying to mandate the Party to policy positions that will divide it from the position. HUMPHRYS: Right. So, you don't want to go back. Do you want to go forward towards deeper integration? CLARKE: I think at the moment, the European Union would be well-advised going for a period of consolation now-consolidation and I think it's a very great pity we've got this IGC. It should never have been written into the Maastricht Treaty to have it. I don't see any area where there's any case for transfer of more powers, at the moment. And, I think, the agenda of the European Union over the next few years should be concentrating on policy reform of what we've got in key and difficult areas, like Agriculture and all these huge costly structural funds we have. And, most importantly, enlargement into Central Europe and Eastern Europe, in order to make the European Union more inclusive, to bring people into the East of the Federal Republic of Germany into Membership. Quite enough to be going on with. I see no case for putting more transfer of powers on the agenda. HUMPHRYS: Well, you see as this sceptical MP again, I'm going to raise my eyebrows a bit at that, because what you've done in the past is very clearly identify yourself with closer, deeper integration. We cannot be satisfied .... CLARKE: Well, I'm not sure.... HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm about to tell you, I'm about to tell you. I've got to remind you of a speech that you made in Germany only a few years ago - nineteen-ninety-four I think it was when you identified yourself very clearly with the Christian Democrats, the party I think you'd said with which you could feel most comfortable. Now, it's the position of the Christian Democrats as you well know that we must deepen integration. I quote the man who may very well be the next leader: "We cannot be satisfied with the present level of integration, we must deepen it". Now that's the sentiment with which you agreed. CLARKE: Now you find a quote from Herr Schauble who I know quite well, who is I think at - that's - and you could probably move on if I'm not careful to Lamers.... HUMPHRYS: Oh, well you're ahead of me! CLARKE: They - you're going, as you perfectly well know for the Europhile end of the CDU which I very much like. HUMPHRYS: Quite so, that's my point precisely. CLARKE: They have the same approach within the CDU broadly to these things that we do. They know perfectly well, and you know the reaction to my speech in Germany was they didn't like what I said about labour markets and the British Conservatives believe in flexible labour markets and a more Anglo-saxon approach to capitalism and market competition than the CDU like, and they know perfectly well that people like me do not go for the more way-out integrationist ideas with some members of the CDU and CSU .... involved in. Now, where I can get on very well with the German Christian Democrats is when you get down to the pragmatic day to day business of the union, and I can negotiate with them when I go to councils and they know perfectly well where they stand with me, and they know perfectly well I'm capable of saying no to further processes of integration which I think are not necessarily part of the British interests. HUMPHRYS: But these are the people at the far end of the spectrum if you like, though some would say they're not that far out from the rest of them, with whom if you were Prime Minister in five years' time you would have to be dealing, and you've already identified yourself with the Christian Democrat philosophy. CLARKE: Oh, with the greatest respect, I sat here very relaxed when you said I had my speech in Germany John, and you found not a quote from it that demostrates your allegation. You merely found a phrase saying I always found myself comfortable with the Christian Democrats... HUMPHRYS: Most comfortable with. CLARKE: Then you went down and found a quote from a Christain Democrat which you said therefore meant I agreed with him. I mean if Schauble were here, I know Schauble extremely well, and I've had long conversations with him over Europe, and he and I know what we agree on and what we don't. HUMPHRYS; But you said you agreed with their long-term aims, I mean I read the speech very carefully. CLARKE: ... views to me. HUMPHRYS: You said you agreed with their long-term aims. I read the speech very carefully, it was a very interesting speech. CLARKE: Well, there's no need in going out and quoting some CDU speech somewhere and saying that means I agree with that. HUMPHRYS: No, no, yours, yours, yours. Your speech, not theirs, yours. CLARKE: Look, if Schauble were here, Schauble - I can't remember his Christian name, it's a great pity..... HUMPHRYS: Wolfgang I think it is. CLARKE: Yeah, well, anyway, if he were here he might say equally polite words about the British Conservatives. He finds the British Conservatives..... HUMPHRYS: Oh, so you're just being polite, all right. CLARKE: An easy party to accommodate with. Then you'd find a quote from Bill Cash, and you'd say, that means Herr Schauble you agree with Bill Cash. Well, this is not a very sensible line of argument. Let's get back to my views. My views are not federalist, they're not in favour of a United States of Europe, I do believe that our economies are getting more integrated in the modern world. I do believe we need to have a structure in which the British economy can do well within that. This is much closer to the practical commonsense day to day business of the European Union in which I think I'm dangerously near to becoming by far the most experienced politician on either side in the United Kingdom. HUMPHRYS: All right. But let's look ahead then, let's look ahead to five years time, and what a lot of people would say is the ultimate, the acid test of where people want to go in Europe, and that's the Single European Currency. Now, you are not opposed, given - because we're not to have all that much time, I understand your reservations, you've expressed them very clearly, about the criteria having to be in there properly, nothing fudged. Now given that all of that is okay and that it's soundly based, you, in principle, would be opposed, would be in favour of Britain joining a Single European Currency. Now, there is a massive difference there between you and this sceptical MP whom I represent. You can't persuade me on that can you? CLARKE: I'm sympathetic to the idea, and if it were successful or likely to be successful I would think you'd have a serious debate about whether it wouldn't be in British interest to join it. What's likely to happen for the foreseeable future is if it goes ahead at all it will be on a basis that was not the one originally planned at Maastricht, it would be fudged to put it shortly, and I'd be likely to say no. And I would say to the Euro-sceptic Mps as I do: Look, given that we have to respond to events, what the Labour Government does, the course of events in the next few years, it looks overwhelmingly likely we're both going to be saying no to Britain joining the Single Currency on this basis. Quite pointless for us to argue
precisely why we're saying no - if I say that I'm doing it largely for pragmatic, economic reasons, and you say you're doing it because you're very worried about transfers of sovereignty and you fear it might mean the end of the Nation State, the fact is we'll both say no, and the British public will hear us saying no. Now, I think there is a satisfactory basis for uniting the party. It would be a mistake if one of the other candidates believes that they can produce some rigid formula which would be a formula for dividing the party. The idea that all hundred-and-sixty-four members of the Conservative Party have suddenly got to say they are against this in principle, Britain will never join could be a raging success, we could have business telling us we are losing investment, we're losing out to the Germans and the French again, but we can Conservatives would never, ever join a Single Currency, that is a formula for division. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well..... CLARKE: I'm glad one or two of the other candidates have come off it, but it appeared to be when they started the opinion of all four of them. HUMPHRYS: Right now, back to my MP role. I'm looking for some reassurances now then from you. Will you give me the reassurance that if you are leading the country in five years' time and this issue arises, you will continue the policy of your predecessor which is to offer the public a referendum on whether we go into a Single European Currency. You are absolutely committed to a referendum if you happen to be in charge at the time? CLARKE: We're absolutely committed to a referendum in the life of this Parliament..... HUMPHRYS: No, no. That wasn't my question. That wasn't my question. CLARKE: No, what-what I would say on all policy issues is I'm- I think it's completely hopeless within three weeks of losing an Election for the Party to start sitting down to a whole lot of minor commitments.... HUMPHRYS: Well, that's very interesting. You're not prepared to offer a commitment? CLARKE: You start with this one. Once you start with this one, you're down to others. I have a very clear view how this country should be governed. I have a very clear vision of what a Conservative Britain would be like. It is based on what we did in the last Parliament but I want a wide and inclusive policy debate now to be carried out for the next year or two so that we decide how to pursue our principles but we re-examine those policies to see how we can bring in fresh ideas, reinforce that which is best and take on that which has gone weak. HUMPHRYS: Right. So, no- CLARKE: This goes back. My reluctance to answer your question goes back to my view of this leadership election. This leadership election should not be five candidates seeking a mandate for a list of policy proposals. This leadership election is about a man. Has that man got strong enough political convictions, a clear enough vision of where the Party's going, enough wide, broad public appeal, combined with the political ability to beat Tony Blair and to preside over a Party that is re-visiting its policy objectives? HUMPHRYS: Alright. CLARKE: It is not a list of undertakings, promises, commitments. Let us change this, let us change that. HUMPHRYS: ...change anything. CLARKE: And you have a different policy on this that or the other. That would be the wrong way of approaching the whole choice that lies before the Parliamentary Party. HUMPHRYS: Right. Well, I'm not asking you to change anything. I was asking you whether you'd continue the guarantee on a referendum and you've told me you won't! CLARKE: Well, what I've said is that we-we- The Party will have to have a manifesto- HUMPHRYS: After the next Election. CLARKE: In five years' time. HUMPHRYS: Yeah, yeah, yeah - exactly. CLARKE: I'm not starting on the list at number one. You can go from one to a hundred. If-If every-If the whole point of the leadership election is thought to be that you start arguing the toss about individual policies- HUMPHRYS: Alright. CLARKE: -we will get into difficulties. We all fought on the last manifesto. We are all held together. HUMPHRYS: Right. CLARKE: I genuinely believe-Infinitely more things upon which we're united, on which we agree, than ever divide us and we must now embark on a policy discussion together once we've got the right person to lead that effort. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Right. We'll-We'll leave policy then and as you say it's about the man who is going to lead it. The man has got to be - many would say - a team player and they would say Ken is a tough guy but he's not a team player. Look what he did during the last Election. We heard Charles Lewington who ran your communications operation at Tory Central Office, talking about that very thing this morning, threatening to resign or at least holding out the threat that he might resign if we didn't go along his road towards- CLARKE: I hope Charles didn't say I threaten to resign during the leadership election. HUMPHRYS: No, no, no. But he said that threat was always a- CLARKE: ...complete nonsense. HUMPHRYS: What-What about Lord Parkinson, former chairman of the Party? He said you were holding the Cabinet to ransom. Doesn't sound like a team player. CLARKE: But he wasn't in the Cabinet at the time. This is total nonsense. HUMPHRYS: He talked to a lot of people. CLARKE: I have been on the Conservative front bench for rather longer than I like to play emphasis on because I get presented as an old man then but I'm-I regard myself as a young sort of man, well into middle age but no more. I have been on the Conservative front bench, I'll acknowledge, for over twenty years. I have been a Member of the Conservative team for my entire political career. I have always been engaged in the process of producing a collective policy and I am accustomed to sticking to that policy and I am accustomed to supporting it. I have been playing in the Conservative team very effectively, I believe - I hope - for a very long time. It's absolute nonsense for-you know we are-All Parties have the occasional zealots and the odd ideological enthusiast and so on and they regard people like me, out of the pragmatic mainstream of the Tory Party, as a little irritating sometimes. But the idea that I am not the team player is nonsense. I am the one who doggedly has put forward the position of the Government. What used to annoy me in the last Parliament occasionally was I would make a statement, wholly consistent with the Cabinet's agreed policy and the declared policy of the Government and some zealot would go off and say I was being divisive. And I think in Opposition all that stuff has got to be put behind us and I've been a member of a team and I can lead a team. HUMPHRYS: Alright. In the last thirty seconds, speaking of zealots, perhaps, I would say John Redwood. Now I'm intrigued to learn that if you win you're going to start a sort of bonding exercise. You're going to bond with people like John Redwood and I have this wonderful image of you taking him a great bear hug, you know, and bonding with the aid of a counsellor perhaps. Why are you going to do it? CLARKE: Well I regrettably used the word bonding. Needless to say I used it tongue in cheek - it's a social worker's
phrase. But, a hundred and sixty four people reduced into Opposition, we should get closer together and work as a team. Let me use a phrase I'm more fond of and used to use in the past, I regret unsuccessfully: we'll either hang together or we'll assuredly hang separately. HUMPHRYS: But they'll be no hugging of Mr Redwood? CLARKE: My basis for running an Opposition Party is ....broad brush (phon) but I've entered into no commitments for anybody. What I want is a team of front bench players leading a team of backbench players and getting much closer to the voluntary party and our Councillors and so on, that can get ourselves into effective Opposition again. And anybody who'll contribute to that will have a role to play in any Party that I lead. HUMPHRYS: Right. Ken Clarke. Many thanks. That's it for this week. We'll have our full hour again next week. Until then good afternoon. ...oooOooo...