................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 22.9.96
................................................................................ HUMPHRYS: Menzies Campbell, don't you wish that you had never started cuddling up to Labour whether you were doing a Tango with them or not? MENZIES CAMPBELL MP Well, I don't think it's a question of cuddling up. I noticed in the film most of the participants of which I'd have guessed in advance that one of the people who was speaking said: well, we should never have abandoned equidistance. But, the fact, of course, is that equidistance was abandoned by an overwhelming majority of the Party voting for that. And, equidistance was always something of a fiction. In 1983, and again in 1987 - indeed, to some extent in 1992, we were arguing about equidistance. But, the truth is no one ever expected us to allow Mrs Thatcher to go back into Number Ten Downing Street or to shore up the fractured aspirations of Mr Major in 1992. So abandoning equidistance was simply an acceptance of reality. HUMPHRYS: But, it meant getting closer to Labour. Whether you like the phrase 'cuddling up' or not, and some of your colleagues do like it - at least, they use it. They dislike what it means but they use it. It meant getting closer to Labour. CAMPBELL: You must drawn a distinction between saying: we will not allow Conservative government to be returned to Downing Street, if it's within our power to bring that about and saying: we are inevitably bound to make some sort of arrangement with the Labour Party. These are two quite entirely separate and distinct positions and I see no illogicality in saying we will not assist the return of Conservative government, at the same time saying whether we have an arrangement with the Labour Party depends upon the view which the British people take and not just the accident of arithmetic which, I think, Malcolm Bruce referred to but the expression of will by the British people that they do not want any one Party to have an overall majority in the House of Commons. HUMPHRYS: But, whatever the reality, the perception in your Party, on the part of many members - many senior members - is that you are 'cuddling up' to Labour and that is the danger for you, isn't it? CAMPBELL: Well, I challenge the perception- HUMPHRYS: But, we heard it there! CAMPBELL: -among- HUMPHRYS: On the film. CAMPBELL: Well, yes, for half a dozen/eight/ten - well? HUMPHRYS: They're very senior figures and there are many more out there. We can't talk to everybody in the Party for one film. CAMPBELL: No. But, if for the purposes of this-of the discussion you're asking me to accept that there are a number of people in the Party who are concerned about any question of to use your own rather pejorative language 'cuddling up' to Labour, then, I certainly accept that for the purpose of the discussions. HUMPHRYS: Because it did, after all, include people like your Treasury Spokesman - very, very senior figure in the Party. CAMPBELL: But, the question which they - indeed, we have to consider, is this: if after the next Election, it's clear that the people of this country have not given any one Party an overall majority, are they willing to run the risk of the return of the Tory Government by default. I'm not willing to take that risk because my judgment is this: that if we want to try and create the conditions for liberal democracy, such as Malcolm Bruce and Alex Carlile and others want, then, the best way to do that is to ensure that we put the Conservatives out of Number Ten Downing Street. HUMPHRYS: Sounds like 'cuddling up' to me. CAMPBELL: No. It sounds like being absolutely rigorous about the need to rid this country after seventeen years of a Conservative government, which has failed the country and which certainly deserves to be sent packing. HUMPHRYS: It has gone further than you suggest, though, hasn't it? It's gone beyond that. Alex Carlile said there is a consensus between the Blair and the Ashdown offices and a willingness to develop that. Now, that's more than just saying: we don't want to see the Tories back in power. It's saying we can get much closer to the Labour Party. CAMPBELL: Well, remember this? Tony Blair said - I think, last week - that he described himself as a Social Democrat and then, he said he couldn't remember what Social Democrat policies had been. Rather unusual because, of course, the Labour Party is spending quite a lot of time adopting the policies of the old SDP. The more Labour has moved the more it has come towards our ground. But, it is by no means a non doctrinaire Party of the Centre Left which, after all, has been the objective of the Liberals and of the SDP from Joe Grimmond (phon) to Roy Jenkins. A realignment of British politics to establish a non-doctrinaire, a non-Socialist Party of the Centre Left has been our principle objective. The more Tony Blair comes on to our ground, the more he recognises the validity of our position. HUMPHRYS: Many in your Party would say that hasn't been the objective at all. The objective is, and always has been, to prove that the Liberal Democrats are their own creature. They're nobody else's creature. We are an independent Party. We're seeking power. But, what you seem to be saying now - you said it on that film last year, I think it was - you're saying it again now is: we can do business with the enemy, the Labour Party. CAMPBELL: Well, come to Brighton this week and you will see the extent to which we are an independent Party, come to Brighton this week and see the extent of which we are critical about the timidity and the lack of courage and the lack of boldness of the Labour Party, about its unwillingness to discuss with the people of the United Kingdom the relationship between Taxation and good public services. You will find no let up on Labour. HUMPHRYS: According to Peter Moore, you haven't been anything like critical enough. He doesn't hear you attacking the Labour Party - he said so. CAMPBELL: Well, I don't think he's reading the right papers and he's certainly not listening to the right people because our attacks on Labour have been justified and persistent, where we regard it as being appropriate to do so. And, we will continue to do so. Labour declines to deal with this important issue of the relationship between taxation and public services. Labour, so far as the Scottish Constitutional Convention is concerned - and, indeed, so far as Home Rule for Scotland is concerned - running so scared of any question of Taxation, that it's introduced this rather curious notion of having a second question - First of all, having a referendum at all and, then, second, having an additional question on the issue of tax-raising powers. That is an indication of the timidity of Labour and it is that timidity which we will continue to expose. HUMPHRYS: But, look, if an important and experienced Liberal Democrat like Peter Moore isn't hearing that message himself, doesn't believe that that is what is going on, how on Earth can you expect the voters to believe that? And, the voters, having not heard it themselves, or having been thoroughly confused by it, are perfectly entitled to say: well, no point in voting Liberal Democrat. They're not being attacked by-The Labour Party isn't being attacked by them, let's vote Labour - go the whole hog. CAMPBELL: Well, people will vote for Liberal Democrats because of our independence. HUMPHRYS: But they will not see it will they. Some of your own people aren't seeing it, how could they? CAMPBELL: They certainly will see it, and I think people who have their political life in Sheffield perhaps have a particular view on this because the enemy they deal with on a daily basis is the Labour Party. But I think we have to take a wider view, it's the responsibility of Members of Parliament to take a wider view and if the issue is "what do we stand for", then I think, for example, on the issue of health, the issue of education, the issue of this relationship between the public service and taxation, our position is clear beyond any question. If it wasn't so clear, why is it that the Tory Party has now turned its attack on us? The Tory Party is now attacking us, it's attacking us for our distinctiveness. HUMPHRYS: Well, if it's so clear, how come Malcolm Bruce thinks he nearly lost his seat, lost eight thousand votes, because the Conservatives were able to say "ain't no difference between Labour and Liberal Democrats; that's what he believes happened to him, he nearly lost his seat. CAMPBELL: You could point to other seats, my own is not all that different from Malcolm Bruce's. My majority went up. Often local circumstances dictate the way in which a particular seat turns out, and so far as the overall question is concerned, there's no doubt whatsoever that if the people of the United Kingdom decide they don't want one Party to have an overall majority in the House of Commons, they will not look very kindly on the politicians of this country if they find themselves catapulted into a second General Election within a matter of a few months becauses parties who may have some common objectives are unable to find a way of running with each other. HUMPHRYS: Well, OK, well let's try and clear up this then, because it seems to me you are taking it beyond the next election... CAMPBELL: Well, there's no question of any kind of arrangement, any coalition, any pact, anything of that nature before the election, and the reason why is this, because the circumstances in which an arrangement might be necessary in order to keep the Tories out of government will be dictated by the British people after the election. HUMPHRYS: After the election. Well, OK., well let's try and clear up then for these people who may still be just a little bit confused, including members of your own Party about what equidistance means and the development of equidistance means after the election. If you were offered seats in a Labour Government, whether or not it has a large majority or a tiny majority, or whatever it is, would you accept it in a Labour Cabinet? CAMPBELL: The issue is not the question of Cabinet seats or seats elsewhere in a Labour Government... HUMPHRYS: ...it might be... CAMPBELL: ...well it might be, but I mean, I'd rather like to win the Lottery, but I think the chances are probably just about the same. HUMPHRYS: Do you well Peter Mandelson said on this programme only a few months ago, that it was possible that they consider offering you seats? CAMPBELL: I've learnt a long time ago to take anything that Peter Mandelson says with a very substantial pinch of salt. The question is not personalities, the question is not seats in the Cabinet, the question is policies, and if there is a Labour administration which is as committed to Europe as the Liberal Democrats are, which is as committed to the National Health Service as we are, which is as committed to education as we are, then I certainly think it would be very foolish if we did not find a way of making common cause with such an administration, and the issue of whether or not we're inside the Cabinet or not, in my judgment, is entirely irrelevant. HUMPHRYS: Well, Alex Carlile thinks it's entirely relevant, he would expect Paddy Ashdown to be interested, (to quote his words from that film) CAMPBELL: What he'd certainly expect Paddy Ashdown to be interested in questions of policy. HUMPHRYS: No, no, no no...particularly a Cabinet seat or seats plural.. CAMPBELL: If I or Paddy Ashdown or any other of our MPs had set our sights on having a Cabinet seat, it is extremely unlikely we would have joined the Liberal Party or joined the Liberal Democrats. We're in this business because we believe our ideas are the right ideas for the United Kingdom and it's the prevailing of ideas in the political system which is much more important to us than any question of individual advancement. HUMPHRYS: I understand that, but we're not talking about individual advancement here, are we, though it might be very nice to be in a Cabinet, you might yourself have a seat.... CAMPBELL: ....it might be very nice to be the Director General of the BBC... HUMPHRYS: ...precisely, but nobody unfortunately has offered that to me. People might offer YOU a seat in a Labour Government, that is possible. Now, Malcolm Bruce is quite clear, he said in that film "We've got to keep our distance, we should have no part of it". You are now sitting there and saying "Well, I'm not sure, perhaps we should, perhaps we shouldn't"... CAMPBELL: .... no, no, I'm not saying that. HUMPHRYS: ...or can you help me out a bit more... CAMPBELL: Well, perhaps there's either a problem of comprehension or a problem of expression. What I'm saying is this, that the ideas for which the Liberal Democrats stand seems to me to be the right ideas and the right policies, right for the United Kingdom. The best way of achieving these ideas is the way which I will seek out at every opportunity, and if by some form of arrangement I am able to ensure that Britain remains at the heart of Europe, that we deal properly with the National Health Service, that we deal properly with education, that we have the necessary constitutional change in this country, then I will explore any way of bringing about these objectives. HUMPHRYS: Right, so you would not rule out the possibility of Liberal Democrats taking a seat in a Labour Cabinet? CAMPBELL: I don't want to answer the question on those terms, because I think you personally.... HUMPHRYS: You've answered it really haven't you? CAMPBELL: No, let me answer the question in my own terms, if I may. I do not rule out the prospect, and I never have of an arrangement between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party to bring about these objectives which I've already outlined to you. Europe, Education, Health and Constitutional Change. HUMPHRYS: The problem for you is this, isnt' it, and perhaps this is why at the risk of putting words in your mouth, which I'd hate to do, you're a little nervous about going all the way. If you do take seats in a Labour Cabinet, you have to accept Labour's programme, lock stock and barrel. You can't then say because of collective Cabinet responsibility, we don't like this bit, we don't like that bit, we insist on this bit, we don't.... you know... That's the difficulty for you, isn't it? CAMPBELL: Well, if I may say so, you've answered the question in the way in which you framed it. The issue is the issue of policy. I go back to what I've said already. I'm not concerned, nor is I think is Paddy Ashdown, the question of seats in Cabinet. He's concerned with the triumph of Liberal Democrat ideas and the best way in which we can bring that about is the way we will constantly seek. HUMPHRYS: I can understand why people in your Party are confused about this. CAMPBELL: There's absolutely no need for them to be confused. You see one of the problems, if I may say so, journalists in programmes like this deal in absolutes. I understand that. That's the way in which you have to present things. But, politics isn't like that. HUMPHRYS: Well we deal in what people tell us -
that's the thing. And, we - Paddy Ashdown this morning saying what a united Party we are - right across .. CAMPBELL: Well, that's certainly true. Come to Brighton this week. I mean-.. HUMPHRYS: Well, I don't need to because at the moment - at least, of course, I can come to Brighton and see what happens there - but we have just talked to some leading figures of the Party and we have seen a clear division, splitting the Party right down the middle, between those who say in a future Labour government we should take part and those who say: absolutely no way, let us keep our distance. And you're now, if I may say so, saying: Well, I'm uneasy about it. Not because I have a principled objection but because it could cause us a few problems. CAMPBELL: No, no. HUMPHRYS: So where are they to stand? CAMPBELL: No, no, I'm-I'm not uneasy a-a-about anything, particularly where matters of principle are concerned. What I'm anxious to do is to ensure that Liberal Democrat principles prevail. And, if you're concerned about the issue of a united Party just ask yourself what sort of summer Tony Blair's had, or indeed what kind of week has John Major had on the issue of Europe. If you want to compare the Parties and the degree to which they are consistent- HUMPHRYS: Alright. CAMPBELL: -coherent and together, then the Liberal Democrats score very heavily against .. HUMPHRYS: Right. CAMPBELL: -both of the other two. HUMPHRYS: Well, let's try and be entirely coherent, then, about this particular issue. You have said: we have our policies. We don't want to be pushed into accepting anybody else's policies. Therefore, can you say categorically on this programme because of that we would not take seats in a future Labour government, even if offered? CAMPBELL: What I say categorically on this programme is that we will seek every opportunity for the success of Liberal Democrat ideas and policies, and it is quite arid and unnecessary to speculate about what may or may not happen after the next Election. What will happen after the next election depends on the judgement which the British people make when they come to the ballot box. HUMPHRYS: Well, you'd better tell some of your colleagues to stop it then, because there's a lot of it going on in the Party. CAMPBELL: There's not a great deal of it going on in Brighton from which I have just come. I can tell you that- HUMPHRYS: Alright. CAMPBELL: -the feeling of optimism and determination and of unity is in my experience - and I 've been to the last twenty-one Liberal or Liberal Democrat Conferences - is unique in my experience. HUMPHRYS: But let me offer you another reason why you should. Some of your Party members say: end this nonsense of saying: we are the-equi-distance thing has gone and we are a bit closer to - or whatever expression you want to use; I won't use 'cosying up' if you don't like it - and that is because you simply can't trust Labour. Look what they did to you in Scotland over devolution. Eight years - you personally were involved in this - eight years you sat with them hammering out a policy, and at the end of it they ripped it up. CAMPBELL: No one is more disappointed by the way Labour has dealt with the issue of Home Rule in Scotland than I am. No one has been more critical of Labour and no one will continue to be more critical of Labour than I will be about that, because I believe they have mishandled the issue, mismanaged it. And, not only have they mismanaged it, they have done so in a way which has produced a proposal which I believe to be fundamentally flawed. But one should never allow one's disappointment or anger as demonstrated by some of the participants on that film that we saw a moment or two a go to colour your judgement. Making decisions in the aftermath of disappointment or anger is rarely very sensible. And, while I am deeply critical of Labour, and I believe what they have done is wrong, I think it would be very, very unwise for us to say as a result of this piece of mismanagement we're simply going to abandon any prospect if circumstances present themselves after the next Election, of using whatever the House of Commons may be as a means of advancing Liberal Democrat principles. HUMPHRYS: So that's all it was, a bit of mismanagement and it doesn't say to you: we can't trust 'em in future on - I don't know - PR in a Scottish Parliament, or whatever it happens to be. Aren't
you a bit nervous about it? CAMPBELL: What I'm nervous about is that the notion of Home Rule - for which I and many others have fought for a very, very long time in Scotland - should in any way be damaged by Labour's mismanagement. And, I'm determined to see that the Home Rule package, which was agreed in the Constitutional Convention, prevails. And, that's why if Labour proposes an amendment - if I'm a member of the House of Commons after the next Election and later Labour proposes a referendum - then, I will certainly vote against a referendum because, as John Smith said, it is the settled will of the people of Scotland that they should have their own Parliament dealing with their own domestic affairs in Edinburgh. HUMPHRYS: But, it's not the detail here that we-that you should be concerned about is it. It's the principle of the thing. You had an agreement and it wasn't something you arrived at in a smoke filled room in a few hours. CAMPBELL: Anything but. That was one of its great advantages. HUMPHRYS: Absolutely. Eight years of serious discussion, and having arrived at a principled position they threw it out. Now, you seem - if I may say so - a bit sanguine about that. CAMPBELL: Well, I- HUMPHRYS: You seem quite desperate to keep alive this relationship. CAMPBELL: Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with being sanguine in politics. But can I make this point, that the failure of Labour to understand precisely what sort of disappointment, annoyance and outright anger their decisions would cause is, I think, a lesson not only for us, but it's a lesson for them? I think they have been very badly damaged. If you think there's a problem in the Liberal Democrats about what the Labour Party may have done in relation to Home Rule, you ought to talk to some of the most fervent advocates of Home Rule in the Labour Party in Scotland. HUMPHRYS: ALRIGHT. CAMPBELL: Their anger and their disappointment is very much greater than ours. HUMPHRYS: So, you-you mentioned Brighton a number of times. They're off to Brighton now, they're starting their conference. A lot of them are still confused, they're puzzled, they're angry about the policies. They're anything you can say, absolutely, categorically to sort it out for them, to make them feel a bit happier, that you're not 'cozying up' and all the rest of it? CAMPBELL: Liberal Democrats are an independent Party with a distinctive set of policies which we will put before the people of the United Kingdom in the course of this week in our Conference. And, we will take every opportunity in the future, however that is presented to us, to try and ensure the triumph of these policies and of our principles. HUMPHRYS: Menzies Campbell, thank you very much indeed.
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