ON THE RECORD MARGARET BECKETT INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC ONE DATE: 23.5.99
.................................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the European elections are almost upon us, though it's fair to say most people are managing to contain their excitement at the present. But these elections do matter both because the European parliament has more power than it once did and because there is a clear divide between the main parties. Labour's problem is that it wants to go further in the direction of Brussels than the polls suggest most of us want to travel. Margaret Beckett is the Minister in charge of Labour's election campaign and she's in our Derby studio. Good afternoon, Mrs Beckett. MARGARET BECKETT MP: Hello. HUMPHRYS: Does it worry you that you¹re coming across as rather too pro-European for the British public¹s taste? BECKETT: Well I don¹t think that¹s true actually. I hope andŠwhat we¹re coming across as is the party that actually can be relied on to do the best possible job defending Britain¹s interests in a European Union, of which the British people
have chosen to be part. And that¹s what I would hope and I think that¹s what most people in
Britain do actually think - we can be trusted to do the business for them. HUMPHRYS: But you seem to be defining Britain¹s interest as
transferring more power from Britain, putting it crudely, from Britain to Brussels. BECKETT: No, we don¹t define it in that way at all. We
define Britain¹s interests as getting - as all our continental partners do - as getting the best
possible deal for the United Kingdom within a framework of gradually increasing co-operation
over the years. I think the phrase that people use nowadays is that integration where necessary, but de-centralisation wherever possible. Everything that can be done in the nation
state should be done in the nation state. HUMPHRYS: We know about the extra integration that you
want, specifically the Euro, the Single European currency. It¹s not quite clear what you want
to give up, is it, where you wantŠ what you want to take back, where you want to de-centralise. BECKETT: No, I don¹t think that¹s true. I mean we¹ve
undertaken an important path to de-centralisation here in Britain with devolution to Scotland
and toWales. HUMPHRYS: That¹s not from Brussels though. BECKETT: Š an increasing role for the English reasons - no
that¹s right but it¹s part of giving power from the centre and as for the Single Currency, again I
think most people will think our stance is sensible because we¹re saying it¹s a project that has
gone ahead. It¹s a project that it may well be sensible for Britain to be in, but at the moment
our economy is too far apart from that of the other member states who are in the Euro and so
what we have to do is to work to get the right pattern so that we can go in, if we should chose.
But of course the decision is not our decision, it is a decision for the British people and when
the time comes they are the people who will make it. HUMPHRYS: A few mays and ifs in that answer. The reality is
that as far as Mr Blair is concerned, as far as your party leadership is concerned, the intention
and I quote Œthe intention is real - the support in principleŠwe had declared our support in
principle, the intention is real.¹ That¹s what Mr Blair says. BECKETT: I think we¹ve struck the right balance. We¹re
saying that in principle we don¹t have these principled objections that say never - you must
never join the Single Currency. We don¹t say you should rush in immediately because that
could damage our economy, which is what the Liberals say. What we say is yes, it would be
right to join, but if you like, when it is right to join, when the economic conditions are right
and those economic conditions are real, and they¹re important. What I think makes no sense
at all, is to say what the Conservatives are saying, which is not never, which would at least be
logical, even though you might think it¹s wrong, but well not for ten years, even if it is in our
national interest. Now, that seems to me to make no sense at all and it¹s quite clear it makes
no sense to most people in the business community either. HUMPHRYS: So you do want to give up the pound. BECKETT: It¹s not a matter of giving up the pound, it¹s a
matter of entering a Single Currency when the economic conditions are right that could give considerable advantages to British business and could therefore help us to get more growth and
to get more jobs which is why most people joined in the first place. HUMPHRYS: I remember you used to say if. It¹s when now
isn¹t it. BECKETT: Well yes it is because I used to say if, what
nearly twenty-five years ago. HUMPHRYS: Šyou used to say no. Not just if. BECKETT: But that was twenty-five years ago and the
British people said yes. We¹ve been in there for a long time, one of the things that we have
not always done in Britain is to fight our own corner effectively as well as determinedly.
That¹s what the Labour Government is doing. That¹s why for example we managed to get the
beef ban lifted. It¹s why we have managed to make some steps forward, although not as many
as we¹d like and we will go on pushing on reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. But we
are determined to be effective advocates for Britain¹s national interests and I think we are
showing that we are. HUMPHRYS: And it¹s more than just when isn¹t it. It¹s
actually soon because you are making the preparations for a referendum to be held early in the
next parliament, so we¹re only talking about two or three years away maybe. BECKETT: Well the preparations for the referendum in a
sense are perhaps almost the least important part of it. Part of the problem that we have at
the moment is that there are a lot of technical and practical preparations that people in the
business community in particular need to make and that hadn¹t been begun until we came to
power and so, as a matter of fact, even if the economic conditions were met, which they¹re
not at the present, we actually are not in a position to join at the moment. And our view is
that we have to prepare so that we could join if we thought it was right and then when the
time comes we can decide whether or not we want to go in, which again is a decision for the
British people. HUMPHRYS: Hang on. We¹re back to if again - an if crept in
there again. But nonetheless what he is saying, very clear about this. Early in the next
Parliament, this referendum is going to happen early in the next Parliament so we¹re very
close to it. BECKETT: Well it could be early in the next Parliament. It
depends when the economic conditions are met. We¹re not saying anything different you
know from what we¹ve been saying for quite some time. HUMPHRYS: I¹m trying to clarify what you are saying because
we do get.. BECKETT: We¹re saying when the economic conditions are
met, the government will come to a view, Parliament will come to a view, and then the British
people will be asked to come to a view. But not until the economic conditions are right and
it¹s in Britain¹s interest to join. HUMPHRYS: But the referendum will - or may - be held early
in the next Parliament, or the middle or late in the next Parliament. BECKETT: It could be. HUMPHRYS: It might not be until the following Parliament, it
might be in the next Parliament at all then - might it. BECKETT: It depends on when the economic conditions are met. I think everyone who is working on this matter hopes that the economic conditions can
be met so that we can make a decision perhaps fairly early in the next Parliament but it is too
soon to know. Nobody is being evasive, you are asking me to give you an answer as to what
the time scale will be when no-one can give you that answer because we don¹t know how long
it will take to meet those economic conditions. HUMPHRYS: No I just wanted you to confirm as you have done as I understand it that it is possible that there will not be a referendum in the next Parliament assuming of course that you¹re in power then, that there will not be a referendum in the next Parliament, it mightn¹t be until the one after that so we could be seven, eight, nine years away. BECKETT: It¹s not impossible, I think it¹s unlikely because people are working to try and get the right economic conditions and because I suspect that as time goes on, more and more people in the business community looking at the impact on jobs, especially as the Single Currency really kind of takes off, I think more and more people may start to say that this is something that we need to be in because it is damaging our interest not to be in it, but your really cannot tell, it¹s a matter of when the conditions are right. HUMPHRYS: Yes but you see, I remember Gordon Brown saying often as you will have heard as well, let¹s see how the thing beds down, you know, once it¹s up and running, that¹s going to change all our attitudes towards it, we¹ll see what happens, and it¹s not just a matter of us, it¹s a matter of them, and whether it looks as if it¹s working and all that, and then, and then, in the next Parliament, that¹s what they used to say, in the next Parliament, we¹ll have a referendum, now it¹s sort of slipping away a bit isn¹t it, it¹s maybe in the Parliament after that. BECKETT: No I don¹t think so, I think all that¹s happening is that people are trying to speculate about what the date could be. I mean, our position is absolutely clear; it is that we think it is in Britain¹s long term interest to join, we think that that will only be when the economic conditions are right and the conditions Gordon Brown has set are met and we can¹t at the moment predict just when that will be. But I repeat, that is at least a sensible position, it¹s very different from the position being taken by any of the other parties, one of which wants us to go in immediately, no matter what harm it does, and the Conservatives, I mean, I don¹t know what they stand for, because their MEP¹s, who after all are the people who will be exercising that power in the new European Parliament, they¹ve signed up to a manifesto that says that the Single Currency is the foundation stone of Europe and something on which we must build and develop in the future and William Hague is telling us that he is not going in for what?Šseven years, ten years? HUMPHRYS: Which of course, could be precisely the same as you couldn¹t it, because if I could characterise your approach, your position, as of this morning, it is caution, extreme caution, we¹re on a sort of amber light, only it¹s amber with red rather than amber with green. BECKETT: No, it¹s quite simply that when the conditions are right we think it¹s in Britain¹s interest to go in, William Hague is saying, even if it is in Britain¹s economic interests to go in, he¹s not going to go in for some arbitrary period of years, that seems to me to make no sense whatsoever. HUMPHRYS: On the wider European economic position, because it¹s not just the Euro of course, is it, the European Socialist Manifesto which of course you, Robin Cook wrote with somebody else from Europe wants and I quote ³closer economic co-operation² not just co-ordination, not just a single currency we are talking about here now is it, it¹s closer economic co-ordination across many areas. BECKETT: Well, actually, there¹s again a very common sense argument for that, I mean, everybody resents the fact that there are other member states who give particular tax breaks, say, to people in their community and British business can¹t fight on a level playing field, despite the single market. It was a Tory government after all who signed us up to the single market and to make a single market work you¹ve got to have a certain amount of common ground, now, that doesn¹t mean everything being the same, I mean again, we are not signing up to uniformity, but certainly it does argue for there being a sensible sort of band of policy approach. HUMPHRYS: And that band would include things as we read in the Daily Mail, the lead story in the Mail on Sunday, rather this morning you are prepared to transfer more tax powers to Europe, they said specifically they quoted the findings of the Committee that had been chaired by one of your own ministers which talked about the power to set one hundred different taxes, it might end up with Europe instead of with our lot. BECKETT: Yes, I know about that Mail story. I am afraid that you know there is something wrong with a story, when it talks about a committee being secret that actually you have been boasting about and trying to get publicity for because we actually think it¹s a great compliment, it¹s chaired by a British Minister for at least a year. As for the conclusions of the Committee, the Committee hasn¹t even reached conclusions. It has even reported yetŠŠ HUMPHRYS: Š.Well this is the agenda it¹s working on, isn¹t it. BECKETT: Well no, I doubt it very much. HUMPHRYS: And if it¹s secret you wouldn¹t know would you. BECKETT: But it¹s not secret, I have just pointed that out to you. You know,,,,,,,, HUMPHRYS: Well, not any longer. BECKETT: You know that a story that talks about a secret committee which you¹ve actually been trying to get publicity for is starting on, shall we say, a not very sound ground, and the committee is not even due to report until the end of the year, but what that committee is working on is exactly what you were talking about a moment ago. It¹s saying, is there a degree of sensible co-operation or co-ordination, but also, in the Vienna Summit, all the leaders of the European Union said that we are not talking about tax harmonisation, same tax rates and so on, there is nothing wrong with fair tax competition and that¹s something that we all want to see. HUMPHRYS: Well, that¹s interesting isn¹t it because what your Manifesto talks about is better policy co-ordination to prevent harmful tax competition in the form of unfair tax breaks in some cities, that might very well encompass therefore handing these hundred different tax decisions across all sorts of areas over to Brussels, either get rid of some of that harmful tax competition would Œt it. BECKETT: John, you and many other people have known and interviewed Gordon Brown for many years. Gordon is not a man to start giving away powers, particularly over taxation, and we¹re not talking, no-one in Europe at all, is talking about the kind of uniform tax system that the Mail on Sunday is saying. What they are talking about is the fact that yes, there are, some unfair tax breaks, there is some unfair tax competition. And it¹s harming British companies, so it¹s in our interest to see if we can get agreement to move away from where there is unfair competition, but obviously, fair tax competition is something that might help us. HUMPHRYS: Now, whether or not you can persuade the voters of all of that in this election is one thing. Whether you can get your core vote in the Labour Party out to vote for you in the European elections is quite another. You don¹t need me to remind you of what happened in the local and the Welsh and Scottish Elections. And Peter Hain who ran your campaign in Wales said, ³Our message has been to the middle England Daily Mail vote, not to the Daily Mirror vote, our traditional supporters². So you¹ve got a problem here because even Peter Hain sees that you¹re appealing not to your traditional supporters in the Labour Party, who you¹d expect to come out and vote for you under normal circumstances, but to another group of people altogether. BECKETT: No, what we¹re trying to do in Europe as we do at home in Britain is to work in the interests of everybody in the country, everybody in the different areas of the community, and what we are saying very clearly is that as you said at the outset, these are important elections. The powers that will be exercised by the European parliament are important powers. It really matters that we have good and effective people in the European parliament who¹ll work in partnership with a Labour Government as they did for example, our MEPs were an enormous help when we were undertaking the recent negotiations on the structural funds, which mean that we¹ve got an excellent deal, for example for Cornwall, for the first time ever as well as for Scotland and for Wales, and we are - we need the right partners to work with to get the best deal for Britain, and that¹s why it¹s so important. I mean it¹s actually going to be a very, very simple electoral system. All people need to do is to go along, put their one cross for the team that they support, for the Labour team we hope they will, for effective representation in the European parliament, and so we hope that people will go. But we all recognise that not everybody gets excited about the European elections, but we¹ll try and make so. HUMPHRYS: They may vote, as often they do in these elections on other things as well that are in the back of their minds. I mean they may well be disillusioned, as indeed sixty-seven of your own back bench MPs were disillusioned with the way you¹re going about things, the Welfare Reform Bill in that particular case. But I mean they may well be looking ahead to the Asylum Bill, which is causing, if we¹re to believe what we hear, even more concern on your back benches. You might even have an even bigger vote against that than you had against the Welfare Bill. BECKETT: Well. We haven¹t got to the Asylum Bill. I mean on the Welfare Bill there¹s no doubt that everybody in the Labour Party is strongly in favour of the extra help that we¹re giving, help that the Conservatives never gave to people with the most severe disabilities, but there are some anxieties about whether we¹ve got the balance right about the relationship between when somebody becomes - has a disability, becomes ill, and their right to Incapacity Benefit, and how that system will work, and similarly with Asylum, there are anxieties, but again you know John, you¹ve put your finger on another area where actually it isn¹t really we - I mean we are saying yes there can be abuse of asylum procedures and indeed we know that there is abuse by some criminal gangs, and we are going to try and get the balance right between giving real help to people who are genuinely in need and at risk, and stopping people from exploiting our willingness to give that help. HUMPHRYS: Well of courseŠ.. BECKETT: Now the Conservative MEPs have signed up to a manifesto that calls for a harmonisation of all laws on immigration and asylum policy across Europe for an identical policy. I mean we¹re not in favour of that, we are determined to have the right to our own policies, but whatever William Hague may say, his members in the European parliament have signed up to something completely different. HUMPHRYS: But I¹m more concerned with what your backbenchers might say at this stage. It seems that you¹re going to delay the - you¹re the Leader of the Commons of course - you¹re going to delay the vote on that Asylum Bill until after the European elections aren¹t you just in case there¹s ŠŠ BECKETT: No, it isn¹t a matter of Š HUMPHRYS: ..not sixty-seven but ninety-seven votes against this time. BECKETT: It isn¹t a matter of delaying the vote. With all handling of legislation, we¹re getting a lot of legislation through the House of CommonsŠ. HUMPHRYS: But it¹s not going to happen before the election is it? BECKETT: No, it¹s not likely that we will have that particular discussion next week as it would probably have to be, but we will be having it as soon as we can, as soon as we think the Bill is in sufficient shape. HUMPHRYS: At a safe time. BECKETT: No, it¹s important to try and get legislation right. Nothing does more harm than badly drafted legislation which actually doesn¹t give effect to what the government, any government is trying to do. We¹ve done a lot of work on this subject, we¹ve had special committees, taken extra evidence and so on, and we¹ve had a lot of information and input and we need to reflect that in the Bill. HUMPHRYS: Margaret Beckett, thanks very much indeed for joining us. BECKETT: Thank you. Š.oooOoooŠ ŠoooOoooŠ 4 FoLdEd