................................................................................ ON THE RECORD PADDY ASHDOWN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.5.97
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: The Liberal Democrats have more MPs than they've ever had - forty-six of them. So what? You might say. The Government has a clear majority of one hundred and seventy nine. Before the Election Paddy Ashdown told us his Party would make the difference this time around. The question now is: how? Well Mr Ashdown joins me now from the garden - the sunny garden it must be said by the look of it anyway - of his home in Yeovil. Good afternoon Mr Ashdown. PADDY ASHDOWN: Good afternoon John, nice to be with you, nice to be here. HUMPHRYS: Well, you are- It certainly looks it. Your place in the sun in that respect at least, but perhaps not in Parliament any longer because you have more seats as we've said but that enormous majority enjoyed by the Government, do you still believe that you can make the difference? ASHDOWN: Yes. HUMPHRYS: How? ASHDOWN: Well in a number of ways. I mean let's take a look at the present Queen's Speech. There are five measures in that Queen's Speech that are Liberal Democrat policies - first saw the light of day in Liberal Democrat policy documents: the Independent Central Bank, late payment of debt for small businesses, the incorporation of the European Convention, you see. So the influence of Liberal Democrats on this Government - and incidently many of those measures weren't in the Labour Manifesto - is already very evident. Secondly, you have a Conservative Party that is - and we could only hear it very clearly expresed by Michael Howard's extraordinary interview, in which he actually called for the re-negotiation of the Treaty of Rome for goodness' sake - back to the Labour Party of the 1970s for the Tories. The Tory Party now are going to be disabled - for what? Months? I would have thought perhaps even for a number of years. I mean I think there is every evidence from the vitriol and virulence of the internal and bloody civil war now raging in the Conservative Party - over not just the Leadership but the soul of the Party - that they're going to go through a period not unlike Labour in the 1980s. Now the question therefore is who is going to be the effective Opposition. And, thirdly, is it the case - as Jack Weatherill said very wisely earlier on - that with the largest force of Liberal Democrats - Liberals that there has been for sixty years - a return in fact of three Party politics? We can use this opportunity not just to change the way the House of Commons does its business - which we certainly ought to do to incorporate that fact - but also the whole culture of our politics to break the tribalism that has done so much damage to British politics and to see if we can move to a rather more rational, grown up and intelligent form of politics of the House of Commons between an Opposition - the Liberal Democrats - that is determined to support what it agrees with and oppose what it doesn't and a Government that is pushing forward many policies that we agree with anyway. HUMPHRYS: Alright, well, let's pick up that last point, then: the grown up politics as you describe them. Many people think it's a jolly good idea. The question is: how is it going to work? I mean what's Mr Blair said to you about that? ASHDOWN: Well Mr Blair hasn't said anything to me. I don't anticipate that he should - he's the Prime Minister. If he wishes to see me of course I would go and see him. But, let me put it to you this way: the Queen's Speech that's now before us containing five measures that first saw the light of day from the Liberal Democrats and indeed most of the measures are the ones that were also in our Manifesto. It's rather more an enactment of our manifesto than it is Labour's. What we will do is we will support those measures. But where it comes to doing the things that this Goverment has failed to do - for instance the rhetoric on Education, raising standards - I agree - hear, hear to that! But where's the money going to come from? And if it doesn't come to make that a reality in the Budget, you'll find us opposing that strenuously. We will be a scourge as we were during the General Election for an honest kind of politics that says: if you want to do something, if you will the ends, you must will the means. And you'll see that coming through very strongly. HUMPHRYS: But, if we take those five measures that you say - that are in the Queen's Speech - that you say you approve so strongly of - you're not telling me surely that they're there because you wanted them? We're all Liberal Democrats now as it were? ASHDOWN: Well it's interesting. I mean Labour's abandoned Socialism and is trying desperately to find new things to believe in. I think it's quite interesting that they should pick up ideas which were not in their manifesto. I mean quite rightly people have identified the independence of the Bank of England. That was not in the manifesto. It was in our manifesto and we argued for it very strongly. Indeed when we first put forward those proposals and right up until about a year ago, and they were first put forward by us about six or seven years ago, we were virulently attacked by the Labour Party, who've now adopted them. So it is quite interesting to note which way Labour's going. But look, what we now have is a situation where we will say to Labour: okay the words are there - that's fine. Words are cheap, now let's see if you can back those with commitments. Are you really going to bring in the political reform to which you are committed and with which we have an agreement with? And, are you going to back means with resources? Why is it that a Freedom of Information Act for instance - absolutely essential to a modern kind of democracy that Mr Blair is talking about - is not in the Queen's Speech? Where's the timetable for that? And we will act as a scourge and a go in order to bring about those things. HUMPHRYS: Ah-Well indeed, there are things that you badly wanted that are not, were not in that Queen's Speech. Now, the point- ASHDOWN: .....answer. HUMPHRYS: Let me finish the question, let me finish the question. You make great play of those five things that are there that you did want. Now they would have done those things anyway. The reality surely is what you are- ASHDOWN: Well- HUMPHRYS: -is a kind of pressure group and they cherry pick. ASHDOWN: No. HUMPHRYS: They pick and choose the things that you like and that they like as well - of course we'll have those. But those things that they want, we're not so keen on, we won't have them. ASHDOWN: Well let's-Well what are you talking about here? HUMPHRYS: Well I'm talking about all the kinds of-You mentioned five measures and you implied that they were there because you wanted them. Now they were there in truth because they wanted them. ASHDOWN: Now-Well, John, I don't know why they were they. I can't see inside Labour's brain but I can tell you- HUMPHRYS: They were there because they wanted them surely? ASHDOWN: Well I can tell you this that it is because of the success of the Liberal Democrats, because we've put those ideas forward that they've now become part of a policy of Great Britain. Now, let's see if we can go further. Where are Labour's failures? Labour has failed yet - I hope they will deliver it fairly soon - to put a timetable down for a Freedom of Information Act. That's absolutely crucial. I understand why that wasn't in the Queen's Speech because of the pressure of business. It can be done in the second year provided there is a timetable laid out with the White Paper. Now we'll be a pressure on the Government to do that. As you know there are certain agreements that we have, for instance about an Electoral Reform Commission which needs to be launched - and will, I believe be launched in the near future. And there are other things that we must press for and we will press for. For instance, if Labour does not provide the resources to tackle the crisis in our schools and tackle the crisis in our Health Service, teachers will go on being sacked, standards will go on falling; class sizes, whatever they say to the contrary will start to rise and the crisis in our hospitals will deepen this winter. That's when Labour's problems come. And on those things we shall be implacable. We shall be a scourge to ensure that Labour doesn't get away with warm words but no resources. HUMPHRYS: Alright, let's pick up the thought of the Electoral Commission which is so dear to your heart and on which you did a deal with the Labour Party before the Election. As you say: no mention of it - obviously no mention in the Queen's Speech. Perhaps it didn't have to be there- ASHDOWN: No. HUMPHRYS: -in order to set up the Commission. But nonetheless, no timetable for it. Now you said you 'expected' I think you said 'expected' to happen in the near future. What makes you think it will? What evidence have you got for that? ASHDOWN: Well hang on John. What makes you think it won't? HUMPHRYS: Well, it hasn't been mentioned - that's why. ASHDOWN: It wouldn't be mentioned in a Queen's Speech as you rightly said yourself. HUMPHRYS: No but it's so important and you and he and your Parties got together to talk about it before the Election. One might have thought that they'd been in power for a few weeks now, there might have been at least informal soundings between you and them so that you could set up some kind of timetable. ASHDOWN: Come, come. Do give Government Ministers a chance to get their feet under the table. HUMPHRYS: Well, they've done an awful lot else! ASHDOWN: Labour may renege but I don't believe they will. I see no evidence of bad faith and I'd like you to tell me what evidence of bad faith you've seen. And, I mean, the presumption is that if you make an agreement - and Labour's made a solemn agreement with us on these matters that those will be delivered. It would be a remarkable thing - and in my view a very damaging thing indeed for Labour, if an agreement made solemnly, and in public, about the modernisation of our institutions was reneged on, when they came to power. All the trust that Mr Blair has asked for and he's started very well as the Prime Minister - all the trust that he's asked for would vanish out of the window, if Labour reneged on that promise. And I see no evidence that they will. HUMPHRYS: Right. ASHDOWN: The presumption is of good faith and I believe that good faith will be delivered but if it isn't, well then, you can expect us to be extremely tough about it. HUMPHRYS: Right, well when do you start to get extremely tough? Let's assume that they intend to do it but obviously, you want it done sooner, rather than later. ASHDOWN: Right. HUMPHRYS: When will you start to say: well, hang on a minute, now - got to get tough. ASHDOWN: Let's look at those straight up. I mean, the Electoral Reform Commission: I would expect that to be named and underway certainly before the summer recess... HUMPHRYS: Next few weeks, in other words? ASHDOWN: ..or over this period of months. Well, the next few months - let's put it that way. I would certainly expect a timetable for the Freedom of Information Bill. There is in a statement from Labour that says that Proportional Representation for the 1999 Euro Elections is absolutely-is their policy and intention. Well, there'll be acts that they can make to ensure that that is understood and they intend to carry those through. They need to be given a bit of time to do that but I have no reason to believe and frankly, neither have you; it's an interesting piece of speculation - that Labour intends to act in bad faith on this - on the contrary. Now, there are things that are going to come before that and they're much more important immediately to those teachers that are about to be sacked; and one of those things is the Budget. Will the Budget deliver an increase in resources for Educaction because if it doesn't then the teachers that are now receiving their redundancy notices across this country will be sacked. Now, we'll see that in the next two or three weeks and
in many ways, that's far more urgent and far more important. And, if Labour fails to deliver on that and the crises in our schools deepens and our children have to do in larger classes, whatever Labour's rhetoric to the contrary,then you'll find us saying some very tough things indeed. HUMPHRYS: Right. Just come back to that in a second. But, to return to your thoughts on the legislation. And this time we are talking about legislation that's needed if we're going to have PR for European Elections in what is it - 1999? That's got to be done very swiftly, as you say. So, again, how soon is all that got to be started and put into place. ASHDOWN: No, I mean, there's a very busy programme. It's perfectly possible to do that for instance...providing it's done swiftly - at the end of this year, or if there's legislative time in this year. We didn't expect that to appear in the Queen's Speech. HUMPHRYS: OK. ASHDOWN: But there is work that needs to be done. For instance, the work that is going on ahead now on the Boundary Commissions. That work is being done by the Boundary Commissions at this very moment on the presumption that the European Elections will be held on the present system. If the Government is sincere about making this - I quote their words - "their policy and intention" for the 1999 Election, they'll have to act very soon to change the work of the Boundary Commissions. And that will be one of the early flags, as to whether Labour is intending to fulfill its commitments and to fulfill its agreements. But, as I say, there is no evidence, at present and I work on the assumption and I think it's the right one that Labour is serious, that Labour has entered into these agreements seriously; that they intend to...they did it in good faith and they intend to deliverin good faith. HUMPHRYS: Alright, now you talk about Education. You're worried - like lots of other people - about teachers being sacked and all the rest of it - had you been in power you'd have put a bit more money on Income Tax to pay for all these sorts of things. What do you expect them to do? Because you can be as much of a scourge - to use the word you used a number of times in this interview - as you like but in truth you are a band of forty-six MPs. They have a stonking majority of one hundred and seventy-nine seats. You can scourge as much as you like. ASHDOWN: Well, there, the presumption that you make, of course, is that Labour is a cohesive force that will hold together and you've heard very clearly earlier on that that may not be the case. I think Labour is going to hit some quite serious problems. The first problem will be Europe. We know they're divided. It may well be, as Mr Blair says - quite rightly - that the pro-European majority in these Parties is larger than it was in the last Parliament but there's still a very substantial number of Labour MPs - what? Sixty/seventy, perhaps, who are anti-Europeans and when some of that European legislation comes through it will be very interesting to see what happens, then. HUMPHRYS: Still leaves an awful lot on their side doesn't it. ASHDOWN: Well, you and I don't know the mathematics. But, let's assume that Labour has to...and their their councillors and their MPs have to face the fact that if Labour fails to provide the resources for Health and Education - and, there's no sign of that yet in the Budget - that there is - not only the same crisis but - a deepening and worsening crisis in our schools and our hospitals in the autumn and winter of this year, then, I think, you're going to find a very different attitude in Labour. Now, the truth of it is - and I remember you and I discussing this before the last Election - that the Liberal Democrats are now the only united and cohesive force in British politics. The divisions of the Conservative Party in their civil war are evident - and, evident from that fascinating interview with Michael Howard you did earlier on - but the divisions of Labour - as they come under the pressures of Government are there and clear and deep and may well become very clear. Now, can we change the style of our politics so that we, as Liberal Democrats, can have a more constructive form of opposition, I'm prepared to do that. HUMPHRYS: Right. ASHDOWN: And, can there be a case where, therefore, where we play a hand - which, incidentally, I was prepared to play with the last Prime Minister - over Europe - the Conservative government - and, if he had done it, he wouldn't have had the problems he had - to bring about an agreement between Government and Opposition Parties, where they agree and it's in the national interest and for us to push the Government where they fail. I think we can. HUMPHRYS: Alright. So, I want to come back to the style of politics in a second. But, you can see yourself happily working with the Conservatives, then, in a way that you haven't done in the past? ASHDOWN: John, I have this rather naive, interesting notion that where you agree with somebody you should work with them. Where you disagree, you should oppose them. HUMPHRYS: Right. ASHDOWN: I frankly can't see very much in the Conservatives' manifesto at present...the Conservative programme at present that I can agree with. I could agree with Kenneth Clarke on Europe and if he wins the Leadership, then there are obviously things one can do together. But, I - it's the policies that drive, not the cosy agreements between individuals or Parties. If the Conservative Party wants to rediscover one nation Conservatism - I think, it's extremely unlikely. I think, they'll shift to the Right - then, of course, there are things we can do. Meanwhile, we know there are things we can agree with in this Government and we are prepared to work with them to do that. I think that would..I think that would improve our politics, as we come into the new century, immeasurably. And, we can be the force that does that. Where we disagree, where they think they've failed - the windfall tax is an example - we will oppose them, like and Opposition Party should. I'm fed up with the idea that you...oppositions oppose whatever the measure and whatever the circumstances. I happen to believe in a rather different kind of politics and I think one of the reasons why we have such a powerful force in this Parliament is because the British people rather agree with that and want us to do that, too. HUMPHRYS: Well, maybe, but the question of the style of government. Aren't you just a little bit concerned that the signals that have been coming out from the Labour Party, the Government leadership over the past few days...we had Peter Mandelson on this very programme just last week, telling us what he thought about the role of MPs, his own MPs. They were sent to parliament he suggested, as delegates, not as representatives. You've had your own example of this from Tony Blair. PMQs - he's changed the system, or he's changing the system for Prime Minister's Questions. Did he consult you? No, he did not. He told you. ASHDOWN: No, you're wrong, he did. HUMPHRYS: Well, now that isn't.... ASHDOWN: You're wrong he did. That isn't a piece of news. HUMPHRYS: Hang on. No, no, no. ASHDOWN: It's well known. HUMPHRYS: Well, Peter Mandelson said on this programme he told you and Mr Major what was going to happen, not consulted you to get your views. ASHDOWN: Mr Mandelson will have his own views. He wants to have the appropriate column inches in the newspaper that reinforces his position no doubt, but Mr Blair rang me and asked me and told me.. HUMPHRYS: Told you. ASHDOWN: Well, he consulted with me John. He said to me that was what he intended to do. He told me that's what he intended to do - he said what was my response. Now, since what he was proposing to do was exactly what the Liberal Democrats had put evidence into the committee before the House of Commons - before the last election that we wanted to see, I naturally said to him: "I entirely agree with that". But there's no question that he did consult us and inform us about that beforehand. He has again, picked up, not again, but he has chosen to reform Prime Minister's Questions along the broad lines that were proposed by the Liberal Democrats a year ago, so it's hardly surprising that I said it should go ahead. HUMPHRYS: So, so long as he tells you what he's going to do, and then asks you for your view... ASHDOWN: John, he is the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: Well indeed, no doubt about that, with a great majority, that's been the point of this discussion. ASHDOWN: Indeed so. But you know, when Mr Major consulted me you could say he told me about the Gulf War, when the British troops were going in. No doubt he told Mr Blair as well. But the idea that he did not consult, he did not inform, he did not seek our views is wrong. He did seek my views beforehand. I don't know whether he did with Mr Major. I don't know whether he did with the Speaker. HUMPHRYS: Right. ASHDOWN: But he certainly did with me. And he behaved in that fashion exactly as Mr Major did beforehand. You may call it consultation or whatever you like. HUMPHRYS: No, no, no, I would draw a huge distinction between a matter of national security, when we're talking about the Gulf War for instance, or any war for that matter, and something like a parliamentary procedure. Well, no, let me just make the point if I may, that in the question of parliamentary procedures, many people would argue it is for parliament to decide. It isn't for a Prime Minister to come along and say: this is what we are going to do. ASHDOWN: That's a matter for parliament to decide upon. What you asked me is whether or not Mr Blair told me about this, and asked for my views. He did, and I told him that since what he was doing was what I already agreed with I was in favour of it. And that's a perfectly appropriate thing to do. He acted perfectly correctly in that way, and whether or not it is the case that he should have put that proposition to parliament is a different matter. Now, I suspect the judgement went something like this. If I put it to parliament there'll be a row. Parliament will fall back into its old ways, and my chances of changing parliament are rather slim. That's a matter of judgement, but incidentally procedurally the form and nature of questions are entirely the matter as the Speaker made the other day, entirely the matter of government ministers. Now, you might argue that he should have come to parliament, although if he'd have done so perhaps it wouldn't have been changed, parliament is extremely resistant to any kind of reform and change. I think we now have a more sensible structure for Prime Minister's Questions, and I am delighted by that, particularly since it conforms largely with what we said we agreed with more than a year ago. HUMPHRYS: One of your very influential members Lord McNally, says that you should now be regarded - you've got to be taken much more seriously - as the Opposition. In that sense what else are you looking for. How does that change your role and what more do you want? ASHDOWN: Well, if you look at the Opposition benches now, you must recognise that the Liberal Democrats comprise about a third of the Opposition. It is a remarkable achievement I think, of the party at large. And so I think our speaking rights, and our rights to make sure our voice is heard will be, and I'm sure Madam Speaker will respond to that, will be much much greater than they were before. Jack Weatherill was very clear about that and I'm sure the Speaker will see things in the same rights. So you will find that the voice of the party, its capacity to intervene, its numbers will make a difference because of the splits in the other two parties, it will seek now to mark out the things that we ask people to vote for. We came with a strong mandate for more investment in education, for more investment in health, for the environment to be at the centre of our government's policy, which incidentaly it's not, and for a more rational form of politics. We shall use that mandate the people have given us, and the extra strength we have with I hope a more powerful voice in the House of Commons to ensure we achieve that. What else should we do? HUMPHRYS: Paddy Ashdown, I can't answer that question because we've run out of time. You'd better get in from the sun before you get burnt. Thank you very much indeed. ASHDOWN: Thank you very much. ...oooOooo...