................................................................................ ON THE RECORD ALEX SALMOND INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-2 DATE: 20.9.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: There's another party conference this week the Scottish National Party. They ought to be pretty cheery about things because they've been giving Labour a right run for their money in the run-up to the elections for the new Scottish Parliament. But if people vote for the SNP are they not in reality voting for an independent Scotland? The leader of the party is Alex Salmond and he is in our Edinburgh studio. Good afternoon to you, Mr Salmond. ALEX SALMOND MP: Good afternoon, John. HUMPHRYS: That's it, is it? Vote SNP - vote for an independent Scotland. SALMOND: Oh, I think, people are well aware that the SNP is the independence Party and as you rightly say in your introduction, support for the Scottish National Party has doubled over the last year. However, support for independence is even higher. Indeed, the last five opinion polls in Scotland all show majorities for independence, not for devolution. HUMPHRYS: So, anybody who does not want independence should not vote for you? SALMOND: No, I mean, we argue as all political Parties do that everybody possible should vote for us. I'm interested in every vote in Scotland, John. There's an exclusive for you. HUMPHRYS: Well, I can't say I'm very surprised by that. But, it's not a very honest approach, is it, that's the trouble. SALMOND: No, of course, it's a very honest approach. That's what all sensible political Parties do and what we say, of course, is the question of independence will be determined in a referendum of the Scottish people, where it'll be a specific question for and against
independence and, then, we'll get the result that the Scottish people want. And, of course, as I mentioned to you, recent indications are that that result would be Yes to independence. HUMPHRYS: So, you want them to vote for you - even if they do not want independence for Scotland. Now, knowing as they cast their ballot that you're going to be spending the first - what? - two maybe three years - if you happen to end up leading the Parliament, becoming the first minister in Scotland- SALMOND: Well I'll take that result John, that's very kind of you. HUMPHRYS: Well, there you are. I'm saying that if that's what happens, if their result-if their vote means that that is the result, you're going to be spending the first two, three years, I don't know how long but a very long time, indeed - down in London negotiating for an independence that they do not want. It's a rather odd background to their vote, isn't it? SALMOND: Not at all. I mean, firstly, we argue - we're going to put forward a programme for administering the Scottish Parliament - that's what we're in the process of doing at the present moment. We, also, believe that the way to convert more people to independence is to take a very positive approach and to run the powers that the Parliament has very well because if you demonstrate that you can run some things well, like Education or Health, then, a lot of people will conclude that you could run a lot of things well like the economy, for example. So, our approach is entirely positive. But, you know, last year when I was appearing in photographs with Donald Dewar and Sean Connery these points were well understood. Indeed, Donald Dewar in the House of Commons actually told me this is the process we should go through. He said if you're ever in a position to do it, then, you should put the case for independence to the people in a referendum and if you win that referendum that'd be fair enough. So, I'm a wee bit surprised to find the Labour Party whining now when we're following the advice they gave us last year. It may be, of course, they didn't expect last year that we'd be in this position this year. HUMPHRYS: Well, or they were setting you up because the problem is you say they'll look at Health. SALMOND: (laughter) HUMPHRYS: It has been known. When you talk about running Scotland well - Education and Health and all the other things that you're going to be doing - it's going to be quite difficult to do that, isn't it? Because you're going to be so preoccupied with trying to get independence for Scotland. That, after all, is your first priority. Bad enough, difficult enough, running a country at the best of times but if you're trying to get independence for that country at the same time - Boy! what a job!. SALMOND: Yes, but where I disagree with you, John, is that I don't see a conflict between the two themes. On the contrary- HUMPHRYS: But one makes the other more difficult is what I am saying. SALMOND: No, I don't think so. See, I think, the better you run the administration of the Scottish Parliament, then, the more people you'll convert and build confidence in the concept of Scottish control. That's why we're the most positive Party about the process which is going on in Scotland. I think a lot of people in Scotland regard it as a process, a process which is going to lead to Scottish independence. And, to some extent, of course, the debate in Scottish politics is not really about that destination. It's becoming a debate about time scales. HUMPHRYS: Ah, but the point I'm making, I don't think you've addressed it still quite yet is that while you are trying to run Scotland, to govern Scotland, you will, also, be negotiating its independence. Now, that is a mammoth task by any means, by any measure. And, that is your priority. It's going to be very difficult to pull it off? SALMOND: Well, you say it's a mammoth task. I mean, in Europe, for example, we had the question of the Czechs and the Slovaks and that process took six months in total. Indeed, the basic decisions were taken in the formula - well, in the formula for dividing assets and liabilities took place in a single afternoon, incidentally. HUMPHRYS: .. in an afternoon. SALMOND: I'm not saying that. I'm just pointing out that there was a six months process of negotiations in the Czech, in what is now the Slovak republic. Now, Scotland and England are developed European democracies, civic societies. The Czechs and the Slovaks were emerging from a Communistic dictatorship. Are you actually seriously saying that the process between Scotland and England as developed Western European societies would be more complex or more difficult than the process of a country emerging from half a century of Communist dictatorship? HUMPHRYS: Well, I'm saying that we've never tried it. So, we don't know. But, you can bet it's going to be pretty tricky. SALMOND: Well, you say we've never tried it - not between Scotland and England certainly but of course fifty countries have negotiated their independence from London since the Second World War. HUMPHRYS: Well, if we're talking of Zimbabwe versus Britain there's a bit of a difference, isn't there? SALMOND: No, no. We're talking about the process of negotiating independence and I mean that's almost one a year, John. I have to say to you, I spend a lot of time in London, as you're well aware, I've never bumped into a delegate or Ambassador from any one of these countries who wanted to negotiate their way back again. HUMPHRYS: Well, that's a slightly separate point but look. The other thing is this: you've got all these people voting for you, many of whom - if you're going to get into power - will not, you've acknowledged this, will not actually be voting for independence. You, then, go down to London and you say to Tony Blair:OK, I'm Leader of the SNP - first minister of Scotland. Now, I have a mandate to negotiate independence. You don't actually know whether you really will have a mandate and Blair is entitled to say to you: well, do you really? Because an awful lot of those people who voted for you, encouraged to vote for you - even though they did not want an independence for Scotland may have done so on that basis. So, how do you prove your mandate? SALMOND: Well, I do accept the premise of your question. I mean I've already pointed out that while support for the SNP is doubled to around forty per cent the latest indications are fully fifty-five per cent of people in Scotland are supporting Scottish independence. Some polls put it even higher. So, if you like, there's many more independence voters not yet voting SNP as people who vote SNP but don't believe in independence. But, this question has already been answered by the Labour Party. It was answered by Donald Dewar last year. He said that the correct thing to do is to test the issue in a referendum of the Scottish people. We're prepared to do that and our policy is within the four-year term of a Scottish Parliament if we lead) the administration, while we'll test the question of independence in a referendum. And, the Scottish people will decide - both if Scotland is moving to independence and the case of that transition. Now, what on earth, John, could be fairer than that, whether you're John Humphrys or Tony Blair? HUMPHRYS: Heaven forfend! Now, the '97 Manifesto, which was the last one that you produced, obviously. That puts you way to the Left of New Labour. You've been resiling from many of those commitments, haven't you? SALMOND: No, I don't agree with that. I mean our position in the political spectrum is - well I've called it Social Democracy with a Scottish face. We've put forward a platform of enterprise, compassion, democracy. We think that gives that Social Democratic combination, and we think it's a combination that's very attractive to the Scottish people. Now, it's hardly our fault if Tony Blair has turned the Labour Party into a Christian Democratic Party effectively run from London. HUMPHRYS: I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about you. SALMOND: Well, I let's whizz past the SNP in the political spectrum, and we'll remain true to our beliefs and articulate the vision of what we like to see in an independent Scotland, and we think we can carry Scotland on that platform. HUMPHRYS: But your beliefs in Ninety-Seven included things like re-nationalising the railways; three pounds on the basic, State Pension for a single person; restoring student grants; very very expensive things indeed. We're talking about an awful lot of money here. They're not still your beliefs are they? SALMOND: Oh, I think you'll have to wait- HUMPHRYS: They may be your beliefs - let me re-phrase it - they may be your beliefs but they're not what you're committing yourself to doing. SALMOND: Well, we can hardly commit ourselves to doing that in the Scottish Parliament Manifesto, since it wouldn't have power over most of these things John, but if you wait until we produce the manifesto then I think you'll be able to judge our manifesto for next year against our manifesto for last year, and I think you'll find that while all political Parties should develop their policies over a period of time, and we're certainly not going to fight the next Election on our last Election Manifesto - no-one does - I think you'll find there's a great deal of similarity between the two documents 'cos we were very proud of our manifesto from the last election, just as I suspect Scotland to be inspired and proud I hope of the manifesto that the SNP present next May at the elections. HUMPHRYS: Because your Treasury Spokesman John Swinney said the Ninety-Seven Manifesto remains alive and kicking. Well, now that rather implies you're still committed to those/that little list that I gave you a minute ago. SALMOND: Well, I have the advantage over you. I was there when John said it. He said it remained live and kicking on the Internet as indeed it does if you like to dial it up. And he said that of course- HUMPHRYS: Well, that's right because some people said you'd withdrawn it from the Internet SALMOND: Well, of course, exactly, and of course we haven't. And you can check that for yourself today. I was a bit amused by that of course, because the Labour Party in Scotland doesn't even have an Internet site. So, I think that was an unwise debate for them to enter into, but John was saying it was alive and kicking on the Internet. HUMPHRYS: You'll be putting taxes up though, won't you? You'd have to do that, wouldn't you? SALMOND: Well, it's been our policy for some considerable time - that we think that the better-off in society should bear a larger burden in order to fund social services. We think that's a platform of equality and fairness, and our suggestion for a top marginal rate, that's including tax, national insurance and income tax is fifty per cent. We think beyond fifty per cent, then, there is a possiblity of a disincentive effect, and nobody sensible wants to do that. HUMPHRYS: That's the top rate you said. SALMOND: Yes, the top rate. We also argue for lower business tax in Scotland because we think there's a lot of evidence that the optimum position in getting the maximum out of revenue, development, investment and jobs in Scotland is to have a rather lower business and corporate taxation than we have at the present moment, and we think there's a very effective model for the success of such a policy in Ireland at the present moment, where of course the Irish government have reduced their corporation tax over the nineteen-nineties, and also doubled their corporation tax revenue. HUMPHRYS: What about the big one, the one that really matter, the basic rate? You'd have to use that three-pence that you were entitled under the rules to add on to the basic rate. You'd use that would you? SALMOND: Well, it interesting that you describe it as the big one, because if you look well if you look in the Internet at the manifesto from the last election you'll find we had no proposals to change the basic rate of income tax. So for us it wasn't the big one at the last election, but what we've said we'll do is we'll look and examine all of our policy priorities for the new Scottish parliament, and once we're finished that process of policy examination, once we've inspected the full Scottish Office books which we haven't been given access to yet, then we'll take a decision on whether or not we're going to use the tax raising powers and will present that to the people in our manifesto. I think that's a process which is very fair. HUMPHRYS: Alex Salmond , thanks very much indeed. SALMOND: Thank you.