................................................................................ ON THE RECORD ALEX SALMOND INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 15.3.98 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: But first, the Labour Party is getting very worried about what's happening in Scotland. Odd, when you think that they've wiped out the Tories there. But it's the Scottish National Party that's causing the anguish. THEY have caught up with the Labour Party in the opinion polls and the elections for the Scottish Parliament are now only about a year away. So there's a very good chance that they'll have real influence in the Parliament. What will they do with it? The leader of the SNP is Alex Salmond, he's in our Aberdeen studio. Good afternoon to you. ALEX SALMOND MP: Good afternoon John. HUMPHRYS: When somebody votes SNP is that a vote for independence for Scotland? SALMOND: Oh, yes it is. I mean the SNP are the party of independence. We don't claim that you can decide the issue of independence in a General Election campaign or indeed in a Scottish Parliament campaign. That would have to be decided in a referendum of the Scottish people. I mean, there's no backdoor route to independence, it has to be taken straight on and you've got to get the majority of the people behind it. HUMPHRYS: So there should be no misunderstanding. They shouldn't think that they're voting for some nice cuddly sort of vaguely left of centre Party when they vote for you lot. They are voting - your first priority, absolutely clear - is independence for Scotland - breaking away from the Union. SALMOND: Oh, yes it is but then of course I would agree that the SNP are a nice moderate left of centre Party. HUMPHRYS: 'Cuddly' was the word I used - yeah. SALMOND: Yes, well I was leaving out 'cuddly'
because I was sure you were just pulling my leg there John. But, the SNP puts forward a vision of a new Scotland, and that encompasses a vision of social justice and economic disparity. And it's that vision, I think, is much more in keeping with let's call it 'mainstream Scotland' than the Tory policies being put forward by the New Labour Government. HUMPHRYS: If you don't win an overall majority in that Parliament - obviously that's what you're hoping to do - no doubt believe you can do - if you don't win an overall majority - and, it's going to be difficult because of Proportional Representation - would you work with other Parties to govern Scotland? SALMOND: Well, you're leading me into a discussion about coalition politics. I'm quite willing to be led there but let me just say first and foremost that our objective as the SNP is to maximise our vote and our chances of winning. HUMPHRYS: Yes, I acknowledge that. SALMOND: Parties which spend their entire time talking about coalition permutations usually end up like the Liberal Party and not in a coalition and have a permutation of a very small percentage of the vote. So you're far better to concentrate on your own policies and have a dialogue with the Electorate as opposed to an endless dialogue with other Parties. HUMPHRYS: But the Electorate aren't mugs and they know the difficulties of getting an overall majority when you have a system of Proportional Representation and they know what the politics of Scotland is. So they want to know - and they're right to know aren't they? - that if no Party does get an overall majority they wanna know who will work together best for the good government of Scotland. SALMOND: Oh, I mean that's a very reasonable question, and the SNP position is pretty clear. I mean we've had a longstanding policy that we can't form administrations with the Conservative Party. I mean that's based on the anti-Scottish track record of that Party and that's not gonna change. I think it's inherently unlikely. I mean, we don't rule out any other option but I do think it's inherently unlikely that the leading Parties - that's the Labour Party and the SNP - would form a coalition with each other. I mean that tends not to happen ourside wartime. But there are other permutations of course, and I mean I've been looking with great interest and participating in the debates on the Scotland Bill where you can see the beginnings of some sort of realignment of Scottish politics where the SNP, the Liberal Party and indeed some backbenchers in the Labour Party are looking at this new Parliament anxious to push it forward in the best interests of Scotland. Whereas, the Labour Front Bench, supported by the Tories it has to be said, have been trying to almost pull it back and restrict its powers even before it's established. Now, that's an interesting realignment and without making any commitments I think it's a development that should be taken note of. HUMPHRYS: But people talk about realignments in British politics a great deal. Seldom- SALMOND: This is in Scottish politics and Scottish politics is changing John. HUMPHRYS: I will include- SALMOND: Well, as the top of your programme- HUMPHRYS: You're still a part of Britain, you're still a part of Britain SALMOND: Well, as the top of your programme noted, I mean, if you'd said to most political observers a month ago that we'd have an opinion poll in Scotland which showed the Labour Party only one point ahead of the SNP then I think we would have found that surprising. Now one opinion poll doesn't make an election and I'm making no claims that the SNP is going to sail into power in the Scottish Parliament elections. I'm just saying the race is now wide open and in Scotland we have an Opposition. The Scottish National Party are the opposition to the Labour Government. In England at the present moment you don't really have an Opposition because the Tories are still discredited and the Liberal Party Leadership at least seem to be busy coseying
up, trying to get a seat at the Cabinet table. Now in Scotland I'm not interested in being in Tony Blair's Cabinet or any Cabinet Committee. The SNP are putting forward an alternative vision to that that's been peddled by New Labour and that seems to be finding a great deal of support among the Scottish Electorate, but the race is now wide open. HUMPHRYS: But given that there isn't this great realignment of which you speak, I note you don't say that you could not form some sort of coalition, power-sharing deal with the Labour Party? SALMOND: I'm not ruling anything out beyond the longstanding SNP policy which I firmly support, is that we couldn't form an administration with the Tory Party because of their anti-Scottish track record. I'm saying that - I mean I think it's unlikly that the two leadng Parties would form a coalition with each other. But I do think you underrate and we've had debate after debate in the Scotland Bill on issues like broadcasting, on issues like the ability of Westminster to overrule the Scottish Parliament, even to still impose a Poll Tax on Scotland, where people from the SNP, from the Liberal benches and within the Labour Party itself have said: this is wrong. We want a real Parliament in Scotland and that view, which I think is the predominant view in Scotland has been opposed by the Labour Front Bench and supported by the Tory Opposition. Now, that seems to me to be an interesting political situation, whether you call it a realignment or not. But, I think it bears examination and close interest. HUMPHRYS: Well yes, but putting again, putting that aside for the moment. I'm surprised that you, in one sense, that you don't say, of course we rule it out because, surely, if you are true to your principles you would have to have a commitment. An absolute copper-bottomed
commitment from which ever party you sought to do a deal with, if you did seek a deal with any of them, to holding a referendum on Independence and the Labour Party won't do that. SALMOND: Well, I heard Donald Dewar, maybe this is not available to you in London, I heard Donald Dewar on BBC Television Scotland last night, saying of course a referendum would have to be held in Scotland if the SNP won a majority of seats with a predominant party and a Scottish Parliament. Now clearly we'd only go into administration on a Scotland Parliament, we've got great ideas for running the country, we're going to have a programme for running Scotland, even a devolved Scotland. But clearly we would want to put the issue of self-determination, the issue of independence before the Scottish people. And that's what we are going to say during the election, other parties will know what our position is. I think you will find that there is a broad sweep of people in Scotland, whether they believe in independence or not, fundamentally believe that Scotland has the right to decide its own future. And the opportunity to test that future in a referendum is actually a very popular policy. HUMPHRYS: Yes, of course Donald Dewar would say that wouldn't he. If you had the majority of seats, yeah- SALMOND: Let me just put this point in because it's maybe new information. You say of course Donald Dewar would say that. HUMPHRYS: He would expect you to hold a referendum before you attempted to push for independence. Of course he would. SALMOND: Well John can I just make the point, that Thursday's papers he was quoted from Catalonia as saying it wouldn't be possible. I'm sorry-he said last night that it would be possible after all, so you say of course he would that- HUMPHRYS: No, no- SALMOND: I'm just pointing out this has been a fast moving situation. I expect the Labour Party is in something of a panic about it, but nonetheless it has been a story that has been changing by the day in Scotland over the course of this week. HUMPHRYS: I think we may be talking at slightly cross purposes and possibly confusing the viewer a little bit. What I am saying is this, I'm putting this scenario to you: that you do not win this great majority that you need, of course if you had that majority you would have to have a referendum before independence and that's quite clear and that's what Donald Dewar, as I understand it, was saying last night. But if that wasn't the situation, if you don't get the majority, neither does Labour get a big enough majority to form the government in Scotland, what then do you do. Do you go along to them and say: right, you've got to go along with us, with the idea of a referendum, or we simply will not get independence under any circumstances whatsoever. That's your position isn't it? SALMOND: I think I've got a reputation in politics of pretty free and easy and answering questions, I think that's the best way to behave. But, you know there's a lesson in politics I learnt a long time ago- HUMPHRYS: You're not going to answer that one. SALMOND: It's best not to accept a premise that you are going to lose. I'm not sitting here claiming that the SNP are necessarily going to win the elections next year, but I'm not going to pursue a line of questioning which assumes that the SNP won't win. I mean that's a very daft way to approach your politics. But what I can say to you, is the only circumstances in which the SNP will be in administration in a parliament in Scotland, is if we can hold a referendum on independence. Now that doesn't mean it's our only policy, we'll have a programme for running the country in an able and efficient manner which I am sure is going to inspire people with its excitement and visionary approach. But we are an Independence Party and we will put forward a policy of allowing the Scottish people to determine their own future. We said that clearly in the Referendum Campaign last year. We'll say it clearly in the Scottish election campaign next year. And, I'll tell you this John. There's a great deal of support for that argument. HUMPHRYS: How soon, if you were to achieve that. How soon after the election, would you hold that referendum? SALMOND: Oh, within the term of an administration, that's a four year term. I think it's best to conduct such a referendum after negotiations. I mean, if you like, what we are seeking is a mandate to negotiate and you put a negotiated settlement before the people. Now, the timescale of that can be argued. But let's say within the four year term of a Scottish Parliament. HUMPHRYS: But you know that none of the other Parties would agree to that. Not only the Labour Party would not agree to that, the Liberal Democrats wouldn't agree to that either. SALMOND: Well you say that but, then, in Parliament and during the debates in the Scotland Bill, I was pleased to note that all political Parties made it clear that they would accept the verdict of the Scottish people on the independence question. If you get- HUMPHRYS: That's different. That's not what I just said, though. SALMOND: If you get-Well, sorry, if you get to a situation and the only way we can get to this is if the administration of a Scottish Parliament are putting forward they're going to hold a referendum on independence. I'd be surprised - astonished - if any political Party tried to gain, say, the right to the Scottish people to determine their own future. And if any Party, incidentally, goes to the Scottish people and say: look, we're not going to allow you the chance to decide your own future, then that Party won't just not end up as a government but they'd be lucky to end up as the Opposition. HUMPHRYS: But, that is precisely what the Parties - the other Parties - are saying. Not we won't allow. They don't use that language of course but what they are saying is we do not want independence for Scotland, we don't want to break away from the Union. Now-and you say they won't, they won't when I put that question to you. Jim Wallace said only the other day, of the Liberal Democrats, Jim Wallace said: look, if that's what Alex Salmond is after he needn't bother picking up the 'phone to call me. SALMOND: Well, you know, I'm-A year before the Election, I take posturing with a pinch of salt. But, I mean, I don't want to spend my time talking about Liberal Party. I mean there are some great people in the Liberal Party and they have support in Scotland, they're a valid political Party. But what I do know, is that most people, the vast majority of people in the Liberal Party in Scotland and the vast majority of people who are likely to end up as Scottish MSPs for the Liberals, they would far, far rather come to an arrangement with the SNP, than come to the arrangement with a new Labour Government which is pursuing old Tory policies. And, for evidence of that, John, you need look no further than the Local Government debates in the House of Commons where Donald Gorrie MP, one of the very few Liberals who said he's actually going to the Scottish Parliament if elected. Made it absolutely clear that he couldn't countenance any arrangement with the Labour Party, given their approach to Local Government in Scotland. So, you know, these are differences of opinion within the Liberal Party. I think the porridge has sometime to be stirred before it's set as to the Liberal Party attitude. I mean, I think this far out from a Scottish Parliament Election, what I can tell you is the SNP position. The other Parties no doubt will work out their position over time. HUMPHRYS: You'd need to sling the porridge out and start all over again with a completely different mix before you'd get the Leadership of those Parties to change their view on what is the fundamental issue in Scottish politics wouldn't you? I mean it's inconceivable that they change their views on that absolutely rock solid position. SALMOND: Well I don't think it is inconceivable but the Leadership I'm interested in is not the Leadership of other political Parties. It's the political Party which earns the trust and respect of the Scottish people and can bid for Leadership of the country after the Scottish Parliament elections. Now, as I say, the SNP are not claiming we're automatically going to be successful. I'm not claiming I'm going to be the first Minister. What I am saying is we are trying to win, we're doing our best to win. We're still in second place but we are a real Opposition and we've got a Manifesto and a campaign position which is at the very heart of the Scottish nation; that we're asking for support for the values of mainstream Scotland and I think we're going to give Labour a run for their money. HUMPHRYS: But if you reject the sort of compromise that I've been talking about, then what you're effectively saying - 'cos you acknowledge the difficulty of getting elected under the Proportional Representation system - you are effectively saying to the Electorate of Scotland: vote for the SNP, the opposition Party. SALMOND: No. We're going to be saying vote for the SNP and if you give us enough support then we'll go into administration in a Scottish Parliament. And I'm saying to you, that I know for a fact that there are people within the Liberal Party, there are some people in the Labour Party, who would find the arguments that the SNP are putting forward, more amenable than the policies that the Government are putting forward. I mean it was afterall the Scottish Labour Conference last week, who described their own Government's policies as economically inept and morallly repugant and socially and spiritually bereft. Now that's not the position of the SNP, which is why I think we are going to get more support. HUMPHRYS: A single-A single, specific policy as you well know but we have no time to discuss that one. Alex Salmond thanks very much indeed for joining us. SALMOND: Thank you. ...oooOooo...