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Tape Transcript by MAREE SHILLINGFORD

MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter:	Paul Lewis

TRANSMISSION	24 FEBRUARY 2003	1500 GMT RADIO 4
__________________________________________________________

ANNOUNCER:	It’s two minutes past three and time for MONEY 
BOX LIVE with Paul Lewis.


LEWIS:		Hello, and today we answer your questions on 
banks and banking.  Do you actually like your bank?  Would you 
recommend it to a friend or do you find it annoying, distant, mean and 
prone to make mistakes.  Why do the High Street banks pay us a tenth of 
1% on our money but charge us 15% or more when they lend it to us and 
twice that if we go overdrawn?  Why do they make us ring a call centre 
where the staff might as well be on the other side of the world and 
sometimes are?  But if they want to tell us we’ve accidentally gone 
overdrawn by a fiver, they send a letter and charge us thirty quid.  And 
why does it still take days to clear money?  With internet banking we can 
transfer money easily from our own computer.  It leaves our account at 
once but still takes three, four, five human working days to reach the other 
account.  Where is it?  If you’re unhappy with your bank, how easy is it to 
move to another?  A new banking code starts this week.  Will it make any 
difference?  Call us on Money Box Live with your questions, comments or 
experiences of banks.  With me to answer your questions are Stewart 
Cliffe who’s Director of the National Association of Bank and Insurance 
Customers that represents individual and small business bank customers.  
Rebecca Fernley’s here, she specialises in banking and personal finance at 
Consumers Association, Adrian Lloyd is Compliance Director from the 
Banking Code Standards Board, that ensures the banks all obey the rules 
in the banking code, now revised, that they all subscribe to, and also 
Simon Pitkeathly, Executive Director of the British Bankers Association, 
that’s the trade body for banks in the United Kingdom.  And the first 
question is from June who’s calling us from Hampstead in London.  June 
your question.


JUNE:		I’ve been using one of the main High Street banks 
for all my adult life and a few years ago I decided I wanted to leave that 
bank and so I approached another High Street bank and the teller advised 
me not to change.


LEWIS:		Are you going to tell us which banks they were, 
June?


JUNE:		It was Barclays and I think the other one was 
NatWest.


LEWIS:		Right, so you wanted to move from one to the 
other.  They’re probably both much of a muchness.  But anyway let’s talk 
about High Street banks and what they say to you.  Simon Pitkeathly, 
competition is supposed to drive people from one bank to the other, but 
the bank she wanted to move to said, “oh don’t bother.”


PITKEATHLY:	I know, I find it quite a strange response, I have to 
say.  I’d applaud June’s sentiments in wanting to move from one bank to 
another because we would certainly agree that if you’re not happy with 
what you’re getting somewhere, or you just fancy a different kind of 
banking arrangement, then you should try and move and I think you’ll find 
these days that it’s actually not a very difficult thing to do.  What’s going 
on in those circumstances where one bank seems to be suggesting that 
they don’t want your business and you should stay where you are, I’ve no 
idea.


JUNE:		May I tell you what he said?


PITKEATHLY:	Please do.


JUNE:		It was because I’d been with Barclays for about 
20 years and what he said was, if you leave them now, you’ll have 
built up a reputation with them so they can give you a good reference and 
if you leave them you’ve lost what you’ve built up all over those years and 
that’s the reason I stayed with them.


LEWIS:		June, how long ago was this?


JUNE:		It was, oooh, twenty years ago.


LEWIS:		Ah right, well I think things might be different 
now. Let’s ask Rebecca Fernley because you’re very keen on people 
switching, aren’t you Rebecca?


FERNLEY:	Yeah, I mean this is isn’t something we’ve ever 
heard about. If you want to move, it really is getting easier, it’s certainly 
not something to be scared of.


LEWIS: 		How do you do it?


FERNLEY:	Well obviously decide what bank you want to go 
to, apply to open an account and open it, and then tell your old bank 
you’re moving and they should talk to your new bank about giving them 
all the details of your direct debits and standing orders and should handle 
all of that for you.


LEWIS:		So you don’t actually have to get a list yourself and 
pass it on, it’s all done automatically by the bank, and does that include 
direct debits into your account like your salary going in, for example?


FERNLEY:	No, you should talk to your employer or anyone 
else paying money into your account and tell them that you’ve opened a 
new account and you want to move to that one.


LEWIS:		Adrian Lloyd, the Banking Code Standards Board 
and indeed the banking code is supposed to make it easier now to switch 
accounts.  What standards do you set banks for this process?


LLOYD:		The new version of the code has tightened this up.  
Now it’s a requirement that the bank you’re leaving should provide the 
details of your direct debits and standing orders within 5 business days and 
from the 1st of August this year, that will come down to three business 
days.


LEWIS:		Right, so that’s providing the details but it’s going 
to take longer than three days to move accounts, isn’t it?


LLOYD:		Yes it is because it involves a number of third 
parties.  In fact it can be quite a complex process.  Another requirement of 
the code is that the banks should now give you more detail of exactly how 
it’s going to work and who needs to be involved, so you can understand 
how long it’s likely to take.


LEWIS:		Right, and Stewart Cliffe, the National Association 
of Bank Customers, do you find that your members have the confidence in 
the bank they’re leaving, and indeed the bank they’re going to, to operate 
this process?


CLIFFE:		I think most people regard moving bank accounts 
as being quite a sort of fraught exercise and it does seem to be our 
experience, people are most reluctant to move their accounts.


LEWIS:		So still a bit of a nightmare, despite all these rules, 
the way things are supposed to happen?


CLIFFE:		Yea, it’s a perception of customers I think which is 
important here, that they see moving the bank account as being very long, 
very time consuming and potentially hazardous and therefore they usually 
won’t do it unless they absolutely have to.


LEWIS:		Right, Simon Pitkeathly, you’re looking, you’re 
disagreeing here.


PITKEATHLY:	No just a response to that really.  I think Stewart is 
absolutely right, that we believe it’s very very difficult and there’s been 
this wonderful statistical about it.


LEWIS:		You mean the public believe it?


PITKEATHLY:	Yes, well I include myself as a member of the 
public as well. But you know we all think that it’s very very difficult, this 
statistic about it, you’re more likely to get divorced than you are to move 
your bank is often bandied around.  But the reality is the people who’ve 
looked into this and tried it and tested it actually find it very very difficult. 
I mean if you look at the mortgage market twenty years ago or the credit 
card market, these are things that have changed as people have gained in 
confidence and tried to do things differently and I’m sure the same will be 
true of current accounts over time.


LEWIS:		And Rebecca Fernley, there is a website where you 
can switch with Which, you like to call it, how easy is it really though in 
your experience?


FERNLEY:	It’s funny, when we’ve looked into it, the research 
we’ve done shows that it really is easier than you think.  People are 
worried, particularly about things like standing orders and direct debits, 
but in reality, really very few people have problems with them and it is 
easy.


LEWIS:		And of course if you are with one of the big four 
High Street banks, you’re not going to be earning any significant interest 
typically on your current account, if you move to an internet account or 
indeed some of the High Street, the smaller High Street banks you can 
earn interest on your current account.


FERNLEY:	Absolutely, yea there is credit interest out there to 
be had.


LEWIS:		Adrian Lloyd, the last word on moving your bank 
account.  


LLOYD:	I just wanted to add that we did actually carry out a 
formal mystery shopping exercise to find out just how easy it is.  We 
found fifty people willing to move their accounts, forty-eight of them were 
very happy with the experience, seventy per cent of them completed the 
process within two weeks, and about half had completed it within one 
week.


LEWIS:		Well that’s certainly good news.  So if you want to 
move your account, don’t be afraid, go ahead and do it.  There’s links on 
our website bbc.co.uk/moneybox to all the places you need to do that and 
be happy with your new bank.  Now let’s talk to Graham who’s got a 
rather different question.  Graham your call.


GRAHAM:		Hello good afternoon.  My question is more about 
the direct debit system which, as I understand it, is universally applied to 
all banks and building societies running current accounts, and the question 
really relates about what I perceive to be a change in the procedures 
necessary to set up a direct debit on one’s account.  In the past I’ve always 
been given a little form, usually entertainingly designed.  At the bottom of 
some piece of paper to sign and fill in and that goes back to the company 
concerned who in turn passes it on to my bank, who in turn sets up the 
direct debit arrangement.  Now I understand this is no longer necessary.  
Indeed, all that apparently is now necessary is that a bank gets your bank 
details, can set up a direct debit arrangement on your account and one , 
they don’t need any form of written or other confirmation whatsoever.  
You authorise this and two, there’s actually no practical way of stopping 
that happening.


LEWIS:		Okay, well let’s put that to the panel because I 
know this is something that worries people, direct debits in general, and 
Simon Pitkeathly, there has been a change for some companies recently, 
hasn’t there?


PITKEATHLY:	Yes, that’s right.  Some of the big utility providers 
can set up these direct debits independently without your written 
permission but they do have to get your permission, they can’t just do this 
willy nilly.  


LEWIS:		No but the danger is that without a piece of paper 
with your signature, they might just get one digit wrong and set the direct 
debit up on the wrong person’s account.


PITKEATHLY:	Well there are mechanisms in place to stop things 
like that happening, account numbers do actually have a check division, so 
that kind of thing shouldn’t happen but it’s possible there will be mistakes, 
but in a sense there’s always the potential for mistakes of that kind.  I 
think what’s important to remember here is that, you do have to give your 
permission.  Secondly, you don’t have to have direct debits, some people 
like them, some people don’t.  Use them if you do, don’t if you don’t.  But 
the third thing is there is a thing called the direct debit guarantee and if a 
customer’s account is debited incorrectly, the bank must refund that 
customer’s money on request.  So if you think that something has 
happened that shouldn’t have done, just tell the bank and they’ll do it.  But 
it’s also worth remembering the direct debit is not controlled by the bank.  
Someone else has been given permission and that’s where a standing order 
and a direct debit differ, that the standing order is controlled by you but 
the direct debit is actually controlled by somebody else.


LEWIS:		But that’s Graham’s point, a lot of other people’s 
point, that because it’s controlled by someone else you’re giving a third 
party the right to take money out of your bank account, and if you haven’t 
actually signed a piece of paper, however respectable these big utility 
companies are, and I think it’s not just utilities, it’s a number of big 
companies isn’t it, they can make a mistake and they can be taking money 
out and we don’t all check our bank accounts every month, do we?


PITKEATHLY:	No, but I come back to the original point.  If you 
like direct debits use them, if you’re worried about them, if you think 
these kind of things are going to go wrong, then just don’t use them.


LEWIS:		Adrian Lloyd, the other point Graham made, he 
couldn’t stop these things, but you can always stop a direct debit, can’t 
you?


LLOYD:		Yes you can and I’d like to give some reassurance.  
You’re quite correct Graham, I think we’ve been describing this as 
paperless direct debits, and that is a process that is now properly organised 
but you are protected by the guarantee that Simon’s already mentioned.  
You can of course stop a direct debit, the bank does have a system to 
bounce it back to whoever sent it if you haven’t given an authority.  And 
so you do have more control than you might think otherwise.


LEWIS:		And you can stop them instantly or fairly instantly, 
can’t you?


LLOYD:		Yes you can.  I can speak from personal experience 
on refusing direct debits to try and authorise it does work, we’ve also 
carried out some tests at the BCSB.  


LEWIS:		Even Adrian Lloyd from the Banking Code 
Standards Board has had a mistake applied to his account.  Okay well 
some reassurance there.  But it is a new system and I know some people 
are always afraid of direct debit.  But always remember you can stop them, 
just ring your bank and stop them immediately if you’re not happy.  Let’s 
talk to Ricky now who’s calling from Carmarthenshire. Ricky, your 
question.


RICKY’S MUM: 	Oh hello.  Yes it’s actually about my son.  He has a 
cash card because he didn’t ever want to be overdrawn.  So he didn’t have 
a cheque book, he wanted to know that what he saw on the cash machine 
when he withdrew money was what he had in.  He paid some cheques in 
and withdrew the money and the cheque subsequently bounced and the 
bank have said that he owes them that money and of course they’re 
charging interest and overdraft charges as well.


LEWIS:		Yes well, I suppose in one sense he does, I suppose 
your complaint is they shouldn’t have shown the money until it was 
properly cleared.


RICKY’S MUM:	Yes if it shows on the machine, surely the cash is 
actually cleared because it’s an available balance?


LEWIS:		Rebecca Fernley, that isn’t necessarily true, is it?


FERNLEY:	No, it can be very confusing as to when I think 
cheques clear for interest and when you can clear to actually withdraw the 
money.  It doesn’t seem right that they let your son withdraw the money 
when it wasn’t actually cleared and this can be very confusing.


LEWIS:		Isn’t the case Adrian Lloyd, that a cheque is said to 
be cleared after a certain number of days, but in fact the money may not 
really be there and if you draw it out and then it bounces, you have lost it?


LLOYD:		Yes, there are different timescales for when the 
bank will start paying interest on the money that’s received and when it 
will be sure that the cheque can’t bounce, and the bank should tell you 
again this is a requirement of the banking code exactly how its 
arrangements work and what the timescales are, and if you draw out 
money before the cheque has been cleared and is not at risk of being 
bounced, then you have the risk you’ll have to pay the money back.


LEWIS:		Simon Pitkeethly, if Ricky wants to complain 
about this, if he thinks that he’s been badly treated, how does he go about 
that?


PITKEATHLY:	Well, the first thing he has to do is just talk to the 
bank and tell them what he thinks has gone wrong.


RICKY’S MUM:	Yes he’s talked to the bank, he’s currently...sorry 
to interrupt.


PITKEETHLY:	Not at all.


RICKY’S MUM:	He’s currently out of work and said that he will 
pay the bank at the end of the month when he’s in work again and they’ve 
said that’s not good enough, they terminated his account.


LEWIS:		So Simon, carry on, what should he do, he’s talked 
to the bank, it hasn’t worked?


PITKEATHLY:	If you talk to the bank and it hasn’t worked, your 
next step will be to go to the Ombudsman and they can actually decide 
whether or not the bank has treated you fairly or not.  But I would praise 
Ricky’s actions in talking to the bank in the first place, I think it’s one of 
the most fundamental mistakes people make is not starting that process.  
But I hear it hasn’t worked.


LEWIS:		It hasn’t worked though has it, and the problem is 
his account’s been closed, that’s not going to do his record much good 
when he goes to the bank next door and tries to open another account, is 
it?

PITKEATHLY:	Well we don’t know exactly what’s happened in 
these circumstances, it’s a bit difficult to try and foresee all potential 
eventualities here.  But he has at least started talking to his bank.  
Hopefully they will have at least begun to have given him some 
explanation as to what happened and he does have a way forward to the 
Ombudsman if he wants it.


LEWIS:		Let me bring Stewart Cliffe in here. Stewart, is this 
the kind of treatment your members complain about?


CLIFFE:		Yeah, this sort of immediate termination of the 
account is something which obviously causes an individual the greatest of 
inconvenience if there are other direct debits going through the account, 
they’re now not going out and this individual doesn’t have any access to 
any cash at all any more, so he’s rather left in the lurch by the bank.  I do 
know that in the banking code there is a section which says, that banks 
should treat any customer in financial difficulty sympathetically, I think, 
and perhaps the customer should go to the banking Ombudsman, well I 
would say ring the Ombudsman and explain the situation is urgent and see 
whether he can get something done quickly.


LEWIS:		And Adrian Lloyd, a final point on the banking 
code, if the bank has indeed breached the code or may have done, what 
can people do about that?


LLOYD:		If it looks as though there’s been a general breach 
across the bank’s systems affecting a number of customers, that’s certainly 
something we’d want to look into and we do have a help line.


LEWIS:		But if it’s just Ricky from Carmarthenshire, you’re 
not interested?


LLOYD:		If it’s a one-off case where something has gone 
wrong, they’re to have a full discussion with the bank obviously first 
move. If something has gone wrong and the bank isn’t putting it right, I 
think that’s actually where the Ombudsman would normally step in.


LEWIS:		Right, so he does have to go to the Ombudsman.  
Well I hope your son can face all that and meanwhile I hope he manages 
to pay this money back out of his wages and open another account 
somewhere.  Anyway let’s move on to Douglas, who’s calling us from 
Bedfordshire.  Douglas your question.


DOUGLAS:	Hello there.  Yes I’ve got a standard bank account 
with the Halifax and I use their bill payment method over the telephone to 
pay my bills.  The thing is that it takes four days for that to clear.  Now 
this is an electronic procedure and the money comes out of my account 
straight away.  But it takes four days to get to the recipient.  Now why 
does it take so long when it’s all electronic?


LEWIS:		Yes indeed, it’s a question many, many people 
have been asking us, not only today but in the past.  But we’ve had a lot of 
calls about this today.  I have a feeling everyone here is going to say it’s 
not their fault “gov”, but I’m going to put it first to Simon Pitkeathly on 
behalf of the banks.  Where is Douglas’ money for those four days?


PITKEATHLY:	All I’ll say is I’m not an expert on the clearing 
cycle but I will do my best to answer the question.  What I think is 
happening in this case is that it’s just going through the normal clearing 
cycle and say, for example, if I write you a cheque and you pay it into your 
account, it takes three days for the banks to, if you like, agree that the 
money is going to move and then on a certain day it moves between those 
two accounts.  So it doesn’t disappear into a black hole in the meantime.  


LEWIS:		I think we can understand that Simon, when it’s a 
cheque, when it’s a piece of paper, but Douglas makes the call, the money 
disappears from his account, so it’s not earning interest in his account, it 
turns up in the electricity company’s account four days later.  Now my 
understanding is it actually stays in his bank but he doesn’t get the interest 
on it, the bank does, is that what happens?


PITKEATHLY:	I don’t know, is the honest answer.


LEWIS:		Because I know that the clearing system people 
have told us that this could be speeded up.  Is there anything in the 
banking code about this, Adrian Lloyd?


LLOYD:		The banking code doesn’t set down what the 
timescales must be but it does require your bank to tell you how long it 
will take for a cheque to be cleared for a transfer to go through.


LEWIS:		But telling you how long isn’t the same as 
explaining why is it?  Stewart Cliffe.


CLIFFE:		Yes a very good question and one that we’ve been 
looking for an answer for.  I actually wrote before Christmas, I think, to 
“BACS” the bankers automated clearing system who referred me on to 
“APACS”, another organisation who look into cheque clearing.  Basically 
saying, that they both have a long and very involved explanation of how 
cheque clearing works on their websites, which we’ve been given to 
understand isn’t correct any more because money moves around 
electronically rather than with little bits of paper being carried from bank 
to bank.  So we wanted to know how long does it really take for cheques 
to clear and strangely over the past couple of months, we’ve not actually 
had a reply from anybody yet.


LEWIS:		No and certainly there have been problems in the 
past Rebecca Fernley, haven’t there, that this process would be speeded 
up? There was talk of instant clearance or certainly 24 or 48 hour 
clearance but we haven’t seen that have we?


FERNLEY:	No we haven’t and it does seem strange in this 
technological age that it should take so long for money to move 
electronically from one account to another and it’s certainly not the 
customers who’ve got it, it’s somewhere in that time.


LEWIS:		It’s not the customers and of course we all suspect 
it’s the banks Simon, don’t we?


PITKEATHLY:	Oh indeed, indeed, everybody does suspect the 
banks all the time, I’m well aware of that.  What I can tell you about it in 
terms of the speeding up of the cheque clearing cycle, is that you’re right, 
it could be speeded up if a huge amount of money was invested in that 
area and the banks look at this as a whole and they say, “well cheque use 
is declining dramatically, but you don’t write....


LEWIS:		This isn’t cheques, this is the same length of time 
for an electronic transfer.


PITKEETHLY:	Well I’m talking about cheques because that was 
the point I was picking up on, and I think it is relevant to the clearing cycle 
generally. The investment required to speed this thing up when cheque use 
is declining so dramatically is very very high.  What banks do, like any 
business, is they look at the areas in which increased use is occurring, like 
internet banking, telephone banking and so on and they may choose to 
make their investment there.  If we all start writing cheques....


LEWIS:		But they haven’t speeded that up, have they?


PITKEATHLY:	They haven’t speeded up...


LEWIS:		Internet banking, that still takes four days, this is 
exactly Douglas’ point.  It’s a telephone account, it still takes four days.


PITKEATHLY:	In some instances you’ll find it has speeded up, but 
I’m talking more about the investment in the infrastructure that allows you 
to log onto your bank account from anywhere in the world, to use your 
ATM card, for example, anywhere in the world.  All those things that do 
require a lot of investment to make things more convenient for customers 
is where banks have chosen to invest their money because that’s where 
customers are using banking more and more, whereas with things like 
cheque clearing, they’re using it less and less and that’s a business 
decision.


LEWIS:		Okay, well I know that Lloyds TSB and Barclays 
each made £2.6bn profit, you’d think a little bit of that could 
have been invested in this because we get an awful lot of calls and letters 
about it I can tell you, customers are not happy with four day clearance 
when it’s a computer or telephone account, never mind cheques being 
carried round the city by men in bowler hats, we know that doesn’t happen 
any more. But when it’s electronic we think it should be instantaneous and 
by we, I mean both me and my listeners.  Let’s move on now, Stephanie in 
Greater London.  


STEPHANIE:	I’ll just say I agree with what you’ve just said. 


LEWIS:		Jolly good, that’s a good start Stephanie, now your 
question.


STEPHANIE:	I have quite a large sum of money on deposit in 
my bank and I’m not worried about it.  I’m worried about the stock 
market.  I use it to settle my credit card bills which are pretty enormous 
each month and I’d much rather use that money so that I don’t pay interest 
on my credit cards.  But my bank is very worried on my behalf and is very 
solicitous and keeps ringing me and would I go in and make an 
appointment to discuss buying some of their lovely financial products.  


LEWIS:		So they want you to spend your money which 
you’re happy to leave in a current account on financial products.


STEPHANIE:	Yes, yes I must tell you, I’ve had two phone calls, 
I’ve been very cowardly, I’ve made the appointment to see the gentleman 
and then I’ve cancelled them and I don’t know what to do.  I’ve already 
bought a product from them, a guaranteed equity bond, I’ve put some 
money in that and I’m quite happy and also it’s terribly complicated.  I 
can’t phone my local bank direct, I have to go through Wales or 
somewhere and that’s another sore point with me.


LEWIS:		Yes well that’s another question about who you 
actually have to deal with.  May I just ask you one question before we 
come on to your question for the panel?  Is this money that you have in a 
current account that’s earning interest?


STEPHANIE:	Yes it’s in a deposit account and it’s earning a very 
small amount of interest.  


LEWIS:		Right, well you could earn 3 or 4% if you put it 
somewhere else.  I’ll just put that thought in your mind.  I’m not trying to 
sell you anything.  Simon Pitkeathly, banks are just there trying to sell us 
stuff, when really we’re quite happy to have our money just hanging 
around doing very little.


PITKEATHLY:	Well I think banks are there partially to sell you 
products, they’re businesses and they have to make money and this is one 
of the ways they make money, and I know we think of them as utilities and 
some sort of amorphous whole, where they’re all the same, but they’re not, 
they’re competitive businesses and so they will market their products in 
that way.  Equally someone looking at Stephanie’s situation might well 
say well, hold on a minute you could do so much better than you’re 
currently doing and so....


LEWIS:		Like putting it on the stock market, yes.


PITKEATHLY:	Well, or just putting it in an account that pays 
higher interest and I would agree with your suggestion that perhaps she 
could shop around and find herself a better deposit account somewhere 
that will pay her a bit more interest.  I’m not sure if that’s one of my 
members phoning up here, while Adrian’s trying to...it’s probably 
something I’ve said, but anyway.


LEWIS:		It’s one of your members complaining about you 
suggesting they should leave their bank and move to another one, Simon I 
think.  Anyway...

PITKEATHLY:	I’m sure all my members would support switching.


LEWIS:		Adrian Lloyd, is there anything in the banking 
code, is there anyway that Stephanie can put a marker on her account, 
saying, don’t worry this woman any more, she’s quite happy as she is?


LLOYD:		Paul, you’ve absolutely answered the question 
already. Yes a marker can be put on the account.  The bank should have 
told Stephanie when she opened the account that she can opt out of what 
we call marketing activity and if she now wants to do that, then the bank 
must put that in place.


LEWIS:		And how does she do it?


LLOYD:		She should be able to write to the bank and tell 
them she doesn’t require this.  I think the first thing is just a phone call to 
say, please stop this activity.


LEWIS:		Have you tried that Stephanie?


STEPHANIE:	I have all that problem with you know phoning 
somewhere in Wales.


LEWIS:		Yes but I mean even though it’s Wales, so it’s the 
call… 


STEPHANIE:	It’s the call centre.


LEWIS:		Right, okay, I think we’re coming on to call 
centres in a minute.  If you can’t bear to call, why don’t you just write 
them a letter saying you want to opt out of marketing, and Adrian Lloyd 
that should stop all this activity?


LLOYD:		Absolutely.


LEWIS:		Well that’s a very useful tip, I’m sure a lot of 
people will be writing to their banks as soon as the programmes ended.  
Anyway, thank you for your call Stephanie, it’s a very interesting point.  
Let’s move on to Brian now who’s calling us from Berkshire, Brian your 
question.


BRIAN:		Good afternoon.  My question relates to the 
inflexibility demonstrated by people at call centres.  I shopped around last 
year for a loan and the first people I went to were Lloyds, my bank, and I 
was quoted 12.9% by a person at the call centre, and I pointed out, “look 
I’ve been with you for thirty years, I’m a home owner, I have no debts, no 
mortgage and yet that seems an appalling rate of interest.”  I’ve got 8.2 
elsewhere.


LEWIS:		Yes I mean perhaps the first point to make is very 
often your own bank isn’t the best place to go for any service, there’s 
always another bank down the road or indeed in cyberspace that will offer 
you a better one.  But just tell me about your experience with the call 
centre, were they unhelpful or do you feel they just couldn’t offer you a 
better deal?


BRIAN:		They were rigid, they just said, “no well it’s not 
negotiable, that’s the figure we’re supposed to quote and that’s what we’re 
offering you.”


LEWIS:		Is this a problem, Rebecca Fernley about call 
centres, it’s not a personal touch is it, it’s not, oh hi Brian, I know you’ve 
been a customer for 40 years, perhaps we can do you a percentage on this, 
it’s the fact it’s completely impersonal, they don’t know Brian from 
Adam?


FERNLEY:	No that’s right, it is impersonal but I mean it does 
vary between banks, certainly our research has shown that some banks are 
better in terms of the service they offer than others and that includes 
telephone banks and internet banks.  So it is worth shopping around.


LEWIS:		But how do you find that out, because you only 
find out how bad the call centre is when you have a problem, can this 
research be seen, is it on your website?


FERNLEY:	Yea it is on our website. If you go on to our 
website and put in details of your current account it will bring up 
comparisons of other accounts, and one of the things, criteria, used to 
select is satisfaction and service.  So it is worth going to our website to 
have a look.


LEWIS:		And Simon Pitkeathly, this is something people 
complain about is call centres, it’s this impersonality and the fact if you 
have a real problem, the person at the other end can’t deal with it and they 
don’t know what to do?


PITKEATHLY:	Yea no I understand.  I think this is a competition 
issue actually and I agree with what Rebecca’s saying though.  If you look 
at some of the best providers in terms of customer service on the Which 
website, you’ll see that a lot of them are internet only or telephone only 
banks.  They just happen to have got this right.  There are others who 
promote the fact that you can actually phone directly to your branch.  I 
think it depends on the level of service you want.  If people want large 
branch networks, then there is a section of the market you go to, if you 
don’t, then there’s another section.  You know, it’s perfectly reasonable to 
look at the market, phone people up to ask them what service they provide 
and pick the one that suits you.  


LEWIS:		And to shop around.  Well thanks very much for 
your call Brian.  We have been a bit negative about banks, so I think I 
should read you out at least two e-mails that we’ve had during the course 
of the morning.  Chris writes to us from Liverpool saying, “I’ve been with 
Smile for two years.  Availability, service have been excellent, continually 
improved the usability of the site, interest rates are good,” well done 
Smile.  And we’ve also had an e-mail from Stephan in Berkshire who 
says, “I banked with First Direct since they started.  Service is outstanding, 
always a human voice to speak to, helpful, informative, cooperative and 
available 24/7.  Other banks should follow their example.”  I think a 
rousing hear hear to that.  Anyway let’s just squeeze in one final call.  
Lucy who’s calling us from London, Lucy.


LUCY:		Hello.  I’ve had all my money stolen from my Co-
op bank account by ATM fraud.  It happened up until the 3rd of December 
and since then and the bank aren’t paying up, they’re not admitting 
liability.


LEWIS:		Okay, well let’s put that straight to Simon 
Pitkeathly.  Normally if there is fraud the banks do pay up, we’re not 
responsible if someone has stolen money when your systems have failed, 
are we?


PITKEATHLY:	No indeed.  I mean there’s a variety of potential 
problems here.  I mean it could be that there’s suspicion of fraud that’s not 
just straightforward, I really don’t know and I’m not sure I’m qualified to 
comment on what’s happened here.  But yes if someone else has taken 
money out of your account, then the bank should repay you.


LEWIS:		Okay, Adrian Lloyd, what does the banking code 
say about what should happen now in this case?


LLOYD:		It doesn’t actually set a time limit and we know 
that the banks do have to investigate to try and establish what the fraud 
was.


LEWIS:		But she’s lost all her money, I mean she needs it 
back very quickly, doesn’t she?


LLOYD:		I hope she’s been able to discuss fully with the 
bank her own circumstances and the bank should be as sympathetic in this 
situation as possible.


LEWIS:		And again perhaps a case for the Ombudsman.  
Well Lucy, I’m sorry about your money, go to the Ombudsman, try and 
take that route to get it back and the best of luck with that.  That is all that 
we have time for today.  My thanks to Adrian Lloyd from the Banking 
Code Standards Board, to Stewart Cliffe from the National Association of 
Bank Customers, Rebecca Fernley from Consumers Association and 
Simon Pitkeathly representing the banks.  Thanks for your calls. Our 
website bbc.co.uk/moneybox has plenty of information about this subject.  
You can find links, stories and details of how to contact the programme.  
Vincent Duggleby will be here to take more of your calls next Monday on 
Money Box Live and I’m back with Money Box on Saturday for the top 
personal finance stories of the week.       


ANNOUNCER:	That was Paul Lewis and the producer was Chris 
A’Court.