Royal Mail: Potential partners put off

And a chimp's tea party moved to Parliament.

"The government is increasingly concerned that companies are being put off bidding for a stake in running Royal Mail by the ferocity of the political and trade union opposition to proposals to part-privatise the business."

I'm not surprised. I haven't been able to track down any document detailing the government's proposed partial privatisation.

Does a prospective buyer get 30 percent of the whole Royal Mail Group? If so, does that come with a commensurate share in resolving the pension fund issues? (So potentially having to close 30 p.c. of a GBP 9BIL gap?)

If not, what arrangement is the government proposing for dealing with the pension?

I read somewhere that the government could take over the whole scheme. That would, in theory mean that all the assets would be on the government's books (look, we've reduced debts...). And, since the "underfunding gap" is an actuarial statement of potential future problems - NOT an existing debt or loss - they'd sit back and hope that over time the gap would heal itself...)

I wouldn't trust the government to be act truly honourably with direct fiscal responsibility. After all, they have failed to do anything so far about the Equitable Life fiasco.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Didn't the government recommend a little purchase to Lloyds a few months back?

Who in their right mind would do business with NuLabour Ltd after that?

To bring sensible commercial know-how into the Royal Mail?
Good Idea !

To sell-off part of Royal Mail at present?
Not on your Nelly !
Wait a couple of years to get value-for-money from the sale.

"TNT, the company most likely to be a partner for the Royal Mail, has recently announced a sharp drop in its own profits, a redundancy programme and wage cuts in the Netherlands"

This is what I do not understand. The potential saviour TNT, which can to some extent choose which business areas to exploit, is having a tough time. This destroys the arguement that a private company is needed to sort out the Royal Mail. No doubt RM needs modernising and that will likely mean job cuts. Why cannot this govn get in and do this? I can only assume it is for political reasons and not the good of RM or the country. This has been going on for years now. Shameful.

Royal Mail seems to have a high government priority, two blogs from you and one from Robert

The spinners are out in force

I see smoke

The government may yet kick this into the long grass for political reasons rather than sound economic ones.

This will not help the Royal Mail either

However, some in government may argue that this news could offer Gordon Brown a get-out-of-jail-free card on the trickiest policy issue he faces between now and the summer.

===

A tricky policy issue all of his own making!

Do you think he will play the joker as effectively as he did on the issue of Gurkha resettlement!?

Brown may force through all sorts of contentious legistlation in the next year, knowing full well that fear of losing their seats and place at the trough will keep the Labour lobby fodder in line and guarantee that nothing forces an early election. It is a sad fact of the British electoral system that even monstrous incompetence and the inability to govern effectively can be tolerated . Nothing short of Cromwell and the army could remove this disgraceful regime from it's entrenched position. This situation is one of the lesser advantages of democracy.

"However, some in government may argue that this news could offer Gordon Brown a get-out-of-jail-free card on the trickiest policy issue he faces between now and the summer."

Or, in actual fact, it could mean that he has completely alienated his own MPs when he needs them most, for no tangible gain whatsoever.

"However, some in government may argue that this news could offer Gordon Brown a get-out-of-jail-free card on the trickiest policy issue he faces between now and the summer."

He is unlikely to take it though as he is so far out of touch.
I suspect Mandy is advising him to push ahead knowing full well how damaging it is for Gordon.

This government cant do anything useful anymore. Gordon please just do somethin great forUK and just resign now I've just experienced more wasted expense of gov.uk. I have just been sent a duplicate tax disc for my car and I will now along with countless others be getting a letter to say what to do with duplicate. DOH!!!! Not only are they wasting money but assuming that we can't think for ourselves. Perhaps that's a clue as to their inability to govern effectively!

Given the government is so weak, any company considering bidding should ask for costs of the bid and due diligence to be met by the government, should the governments plans be de-railed by parliament.

The government can't seriously expect hard pressed companies to risk large sums that a bid would cost, given Brown has so little authority.

If headlines constantly told you that it was losing money, would you invest, or would you be asking for a reduction on the value of the company...so for the same amount of money you get more control.

Typical Labour, no business ability or flair and no get up and go to force through a policy

A whole year of laughing at Labour will not help the Royal Mail

Call an election

I begin to think this is a conspiracy which will be delayed for some reason or another and dropped into the lap of the next government.

It came up without warning so circumstances must be so bad it could not be covered up until after the next election.

What we need to ask is what else will surface once Brown has gone?

Right so the difficulty is the management can't cope fine give me the job then. Who ever modernises there is going to be industrial action if you fail to appease the union's. At least if it is tackled by the public sector we still own it. Yes there would need to be redundancies but why not through natural wastage set staffing levels a sensible targets over a few years and the Unions may cry about it but what is the alternative five years down the line full privatisation. You also need to give the Royal Mail a fighting chance let it fight in the market place allow it to set it's own tariff on delivering competitors mail. I would set that at 10% above RM's own pay scale. Legislate to ensure All mail Carriers offer a universal mail delivery at the same cost for anywhere in the UK . Last but not least we have all lost our pensions (oops sorry forgot about Fred)so reform of the pension system is absolutely vital we can no longer afford to pay for gold plated pensions we the tax payer need to be getting value for money. To those employees in the Royal Mail welcome to the real world and the threat we all face if you don't like it there are millions out there looking for work many of whom no how to work hard for a living and don't need to be bribed for turning up to work.

With all due respect, the problem is that the government has competely lost control of the narrative and hasn't got a cat in hells chance of getting it back.

If you were a spin doctor in this government where exactly would you begin?

So by accident or design, curiously Gordon Brown has achieved what he set out to do; to end spin. Not because the spin has stopped but because no one has the faintest idea what thy are talking about anymore.

Live by the sword and die by the sword but this government is making an art form out of falling on its sword.

Good

Call an election.

Gone:Sunday collections,second deliveries.
More box deliveries instead of letterbox,prices well up.

Next??
Gone: Five-day deliveries,universal services ??
More,prices well up...??

I see.
Sell to TNT........... and a few years later,the government will probably need another, even bigger, bailout of the ''business''.

...''great''.

Here is an idea.

Sort it out first before selling.

Nick,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Brown will put out a statment, prior to the June elections and whilst parliament is not sitting, delaying part privatisation of Royal Mail stating that there has been a revieiw and the current economic climate is not right for this to happen etc, etc.

To go ahead will be utter foolishness and if there are very poor elections results in June, all of this together, may just result in him being toppled. Is it worth such a gamble? - don`t think so.

I think he will put Royal Mail back in the pending tray and hope that something comes up in the next 12 months that will give him a fighting chance at the next general election.

And stamps are already being printed with the Queen's head replaced by Mandy!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Nick:

That is sad news, that potential partners are being turn off
from "bidding" on Royal Mail...

When the bids are tendered


~Dennis Junior~

A combination of an outmoded underfunded business in an "industry" that has had its day staffed by one of the strongest unions in the UK with a huge pension problem. I'm sure that there are hundreds of companies queuing up to invest in the Post Office.

The whole idea of the postal service requires a complete re think. Starting with - Do we actually want/need a postal service with daily deliveries to every address in the UK. If so, lets look at how we can modernise the service to fit the modern world, not the 19th century. Cost the issue, put in realistic salaries and pensions for the employees. Put in a reasonable pricing policy and fund any deficit from the public purse overseen by an independent regulator.

By all means sell of the element of the service that can be profitable with the backing of a commercial business. This part of the service already has competition in the UK.

There's a far more important political point than what you hint at Nick. In fact you've missed the whole point.

What company in their right mind would bid for part of the RoyalMail when the government that we've got is potentially going to be kicked out in a few months and before they get kicked out they're just following a scorched earth policy ?

What kind of idiot director would see the total desperation and insane policies that the government's adopting, and say "yes, I'll have some of that." ?

Brown/Labour didn't even bother to read the trillion-pound bank bailout contracts; what makes you think the RoyalMail privatisation would make sense?

TNT would be looking at the UK government now and saying "not touching you with a bargepole. I'll come back when you've got someone that's not completely mad at the helm"

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

19. At 4:42pm on 06 May 2009, briangare wrote:
Nick,

....I think he will put Royal Mail back in the pending tray and hope that something comes up in the next 12 months that will give him a fighting chance at the next general election.

===

Brilliant! I think you have just written Labour's next manifesto.

oldnat @ 21

letting down an actress for whom so many men of my generation had "sweet, affectionate thoughts"(!)

yes, I know what you mean ... La Lumley ... but I can't be completely alone (can I?) in just slightly preferring Harriet Harman

WHO?

IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY INTO ANOTHER GORDY FIASCO??

AS IN PMQ's ONE WOULD HAVE TO BE STUPID TO FOLLOW THE LAME DUCK!

#3
I have to admit this comment is truly a recession gloom buster!

27 sagamix

"La Lumley ... but I can't be completely alone (can I?) in just slightly preferring Harriet Harman"

And I thought that Gordon Brown had problems......

#25
We must keep our eyes peeled for the announcement on YouTube. At least this time he'd actually have the backing of the people.

25

"Joanna Lumley thinks she has got Gordon's word that he will personally work on a solution for the Gurkhas by the end of the month!
Any bets?"

I wouldn't trust Gordon Brown an inch, and you really have to watch not what he says, but what he actually does. This isn't over by a long way IMO. He'll come up with a few more proposals which promise much and deliver nothing - the process is called "stealth inertia".

I'm actually expecting him to do something really nasty and spiteful which he will claim is required to pay for the Gurkhas policy - such as closing a hospital.

All the Royal Mail delivers through my letter box are bills and junk both of which I can do without. Also, on the very rare occasions that I need to use a Post Office I queue for an absolute age only to be scowled at by the humourless haggard at the counter when I finally get served.

Good riddance to it all.

Apart from generalities like "taxes will go up" and "spending will go up even more" can anyone identify any number this government has provided for cost or time of delivery of anything that has turned out to be reliable?

So why would anyone trust any of the numbers they quote associated with Royal Mail, including of course potential purchasers?

Why would anyone like TNT want them or the hassle anyway? It's been three years since I sent anything of any significance by RM. E-mail does letters faster and better and wild horses wouldn't drag me back to shipping any packages with them. And I'm certainly not the only one. If I were TNT et al I would just sit back and wait for the business to come to me.

21. oldnat wrote:
Joanna Lumley has proved herself to be a good politician, as well as an actor.
===============================
oldnat, I agree. This lovely lady is brilliant. She has, as it were, made Brown an offer he cannot refuse. If he denies his promise, he will appear a cad and a liar. If he doesn't deny that he gave his word, and then doesn't act on it, he will again appear as a cad and a liar. Oh, Joanna, would that you were prime minister!

sagamix @27 wrote:

"yes, I know what you mean ... La Lumley ... but I can't be completely alone (can I?) in just slightly preferring Harriet Harman'

This - above all - demonstrates the total lack of judgement of Labour supporters.

For most men, Harman is as attractive as a dose of swine flu.

Why, oh why is it that no one ever mentions the real cause of the Royal Mail sell off.
Tucked away in prime ministers' questions yesterday (04/03/09, (held by Harman deputising) was a question from the redoubtable Ann Winterton. She asked for confirmation that the real reason for part-privatising Royal Mail stems directly from European Union postal legislation, which
forced Royal Mail to divest itself of its most profitable business, thereby handing it over lock, stock and barrel to European competitors.
Harman, dutifully briefed by her gifted civil servants, delivered her
"non-answer". The "real reason", she said, was "the analysis in the Hooper report, which we commissioned as long ago as December 2007."
This is an interesting response, as the Hooper Report tells us that the real reason for part-privatising Royal Mail is ... er ... European Union postal legislation, and also EU state aid rules.
Hooper states, Royal Mail needs to modernise, which requires considerable investment. But "that transformation would have to be carried out under European rules on restructuring aid." That in turn would "impose considerable restraints" and thus take time. But, unless Royal Mail can modernise faster than EU rules would allow, "a forced restructuring under European rules is highly likely."
Thus does Hooper recommend that "there should be a strategic partnership between Royal Mail and one or more private sector partners." And, while the precise nature of such a partnership is a matter for the Government to negotiate, at its core, "will be Royal Mail's obligations under the universal service, as required under EU and UK law." The UK law, incidentally, largely transposes EU law.
This comment may not be allowed because it mentions the forbidden letters, EU

I can't imagine why potential investors are being put off from taking a stake in the Royal Mail....

Just look at the huge success of Railtrack!

It's true that businesses and taxpayers are being clobbered by this government, but that couldn't be a significant factor, could it?

27. sagamix wrote:
" ... La Lumley ... but I can't be completely alone (can I?) in just slightly preferring Harriet Harman "

Wow! Saga! Harriet Harman?? And there's me thinking you had a pathological hatred of toffs! Perhaps because she's a Labour Toff that doesn't count eh?

@ 40

it's her policies I'm in love with, silent, her policies

seen the latest? ... pack the Boards of Banks with women? ... that's an idea and a half, that is ... hope it happens

course, I'd prefer she was a working class girl from Halifax but, you know, can't have everything

@ 37

For most men, Harman is as attractive as a dose of swine flu

Max! ... it's all about Taste ... it's the wooden floor versus shagpile debate ... and if you can't come back with something good off a feeder line like that, you are going to have to consider retirement

Nick,

Slightly off topic but a good example of goverment Spin and the reality of real life.

My daughters 17year old boyfriend has just lost (along with a hand full of others) his apprenticeship possition for a goverment department. The resion given is that they have been told to cut back at all levels including apprenticeships.

Goverment Spin has it that "National Apprenticeship Service" launched a few months ago is generating thousands of new apprenticeships, in fact the minister in charge bosted a few months ago that they would be 10's of thousand NEW Apprenticeship thru out goverment and local goverment departments.

Well as of yesterday there are half a dozen ex-goverment apprentices on the dole queue!

Just a thought I wonder why Duch, German and French goverment owned companies are so keen to buy up evey asset that G.Brown is flogging off.

France now owns our nucular industry and the sites from new power stations, a large percentage of our power network and companies, our water boards etc.... Their profits go to paying French pensions!

Almost all post getting manually sorted by Royal Mail provides a clear pointer to why productivity and quality of service by union-dominated tax-financed or monopoly-enjoying buinsesses is so low in the UK. Rather focus on that and what the parallels could be in schools and hospitals.

And then there is the NIESR report from yesterday:
-debt-to-GDP likely to hit over 95% in a few years times;
-taxes should go up and/or
-pension age should increase and/or
-government spending should fall.

The NIESR report put out just after the budget said that the public finances need to improve by an annual 80 billion if the economy bounces a bit. The OECD said that the UK's structural budget deficit is 7.2% of GDP or 100 billion. Perhaps these reports merit a few question for Brown, Darling and Mandy.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Good morning nick Plants are doing well here no water shortage here or hosepipe bans? Still subject matter i can only refer you two my own experance with the royal mail it is run by the goverment seen over by the unions as was the docks .firstly the unions coulde'nt give a monkeys about the wellfair of the instition what so ever, as long as the tally man ariving in grand limmo on friday night to pick up subs that was fine by them So this time mr Priminister Sell it off and let private enterprize take over with people who would cherrish a working wage with out the hassle.

"#3. At 1:57pm on 06 May 2009, JPSLotus79 wrote:
Those of you anxious to see the back of Brown should note today's date, May 6th. It is widely accepted among political commentators that the GE will be on this day next year."

I suspect that it well be at the tail end of this year and not in May, why:-
a) Vat will go up to 17.5% at least in the new year (but duty on wine/fuel will not drop),
b) Stamp duty will be re-instated in ther new year,
c) Income Tax and NI rises will hit in april pay packets (unlike this year where nearly every one was AT least £10 a month better off next april most people will be worse off as the second temp fix for the 10% band comes to an end and there was nothing in the budget carring it on in 2010/11. The spin about the 50% rate covered up whats happening next April for the majority of us.
d) 5-20billion of goverment cuts will be starting in 2010.
e) Lots of PFI projects will grind to a halt as funding has dryed up
f) The press will have a field day re the cities xmas bonuses which he will not be able to stop.

I would guess that he is planning a mega party conferance and then a snap election!

#38 Rayatcov:

From what I've read, you are quite right to highlight the role of EU legislation in forcing the Government to reform the Royal Mail.

Just goes to show that not everything coming out of the EU is bad for Britain. If the EU forces the Royal Mail to modernise or die we should welcome it (though I would still prefer our own politicians to see the benefit of reform without being prompted to act by others).

"4. At 1:58pm on 06 May 2009, sweetAnybody wrote:
Didn't the government recommend a little purchase to Lloyds a few months back?"

At the time the spin said that 10 asked for the take over, but the spin now as the deal has gone bad is that their own envolvment was ONLY to say that the regulator would not object to the take over.

But hten apparently they didnt know about a certain bankers pension? and yesterday that banker depudy got a simular large pension!

This goverment has 3 solutions to any problem
1) Its wasn't us, we didnt know and anyway it didn't really happen.
2) Chuck it in the long grass but ordering a severl year long review / report
3) Panic and rush out a new ill thought out policy / whitepaper so people know they are doing something.

I can not think of ONE policy that G.Brown has actually implemented since he became PM.

So Nick says that the Government may have to rely on the Conservatives to get them through this one?
Im a little confused; arent they the guys who previously thought this was a privatisation to far?
Labour, Conservative: Perhaps its just me; I dont understand the world any more.

One things for sure; as a tax payer Im sure I will pick up the bill for the loss making side of this deal.

Nick,

I think you are being spun. When will you learn?

You write: "The government is increasingly concerned that companies are being put off bidding for a stake in running Royal Mail by the ferocity of the political and trade union opposition to proposals to part-privatise the business....Some in government may argue that this news could offer Gordon Brown a get-out-of-jail-free card on the trickiest policy issue he faces between now and the summer."

So who is your source? Is it a GVN minister or his PPS? If it is, then haven't you thought of the possibility that they might be lying to you? Have you double-checked this story with TNT? I mean its all very cosy isn't it... A GVN source tells you that private compamies are being put off from applying and that this might solve their political problem. You report their statement as fact. The print media follow the BBC line and hey presto, the public are spun. A couple of months later, said minister announces to Parliament that it is with great regret that he has to postpone part-privatisation of Royal Mail etc.... If Tory front bench accuse GVN of climbdown, Minister replies - there was no buyer at the moment, doesn't the hon. gentleman read the newspapers? Problem solved for the GVN!

But what if its all based on a ruse Nick? Remember the £1 Trillion headline at the G20. You were spun then. How can we be sure that the same thing isn't happening again....?

But what if your story is a ruse

In 4 weeks time we can show Gordon Brown what we think of him, even the biased media have been routed and those left are losing their credibility. Having said that, I think Gordon Browns Ego will prevent him from doing the honourable thing ie resigning, it doesnt seem right that one man can waste an entire year of our country before we regain common sense.

46 grandantidote
This poste was removed by the moderaters I dont know why but I suspect that one of them read more into it than was there. I followed this with a letter to the moderaters suggesting that they should read whats in the post not what they think it says if your mind works that way,
the post was awaiting moderation but suddenly disappeared, it seems that censorship is the name of the game and free speech is thrown out the window

The Royal Mail changes will go through regardless with the help of the opposition so I don't see the point of dwelling on them. The only concern for Gordon Brown will be the extent of the backbencher's rebellion. It will give him a better idea of the extent of the dissension amongst his own ranks not that he will b able to do much about it.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Yes Susan, you are right about Joanna. I believe she is a Tory supporter (she went to Prince Charles' wedding to Camilla) and it looks as though she chose her words in order to manipulate the situation, ie if Brown comes back and says the ruling on the ghurkas stands then she can say "but he assured me..." etc etc so he would lose face.

Actually, I never thought I would hear myself say this but I DO actually think that we cannot afford all these ghurka families coming in, using our benefits etc. Why can't we make a token donation to them in their own countries? Is that why they fought for us so they could use our benefits? I wouldn't have thought so.

Firstly though and this is the BIGGEST scandal of Labour - how can they refuse the Ghurkas entry whilst allowing millions of rabble in from around the world?

Beggars belief.

The government (with the help of Royal Mail) have finally delivered on something.
A swine flu leaflet arrived today.

#54 grandantidote
re your 46

Could you try posting it again but re-arranged - this sometimes helps.

I agree that the sale of Royal Mail will, at some point, have to go through. Maybe not now because Brown suspects it could prove troublesome. But when it does I don't think what will be left will be stable enough to carry on. Its a volatile object that could easily implode - vis a vis Unions, working practice etc.

54. At 09:25am on 07 May 2009, grandantidote wrote:
46 grandantidote
This poste was removed by the moderaters I dont know why but I suspect that one of them read more into it than was there.

===

A common problem for you. I would assert.

54. At 09:25am on 07 May 2009, grandantidote wrote:
46 grandantidote
This poste was removed by the moderaters I dont know why but I suspect that one of them read more into it than was there. I followed this with a letter to the moderaters suggesting that they should read whats in the post not what they think it says if your mind works that way,
the post was awaiting moderation but suddenly disappeared, it seems that censorship is the name of the game and free speech is thrown out the window

===

Welcome to the world of NewLabour!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/16-banned-from-britain-named-and-shamed-1679127.html

Pay attention, folks.
rayatcov has kindly indicated the source of the troubles at the Post Office and you're all ignoring it: the EU. Check here for information about the EU's Directives on 'liberalising' the European postal systems: https://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/post/legislation_en.htm
The Directives controlling the postal services have to be implemented by member states (or 'transposed' as they like to say). This means that even if the Labour government doesn't continue the process of privatisation, then the incoming Conservative will have to.
The EU clock is ticking (their words) for 'abolishing legal monopolies on postal services by 31 December 2010' - https://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/323&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN
Don't expect Nick Robinson or anyone else in the British media (particularly the BBC) to mention the importance of the EU in large amounts of the legislation passed in this country.

Nick says:
I have been told that both political and economic factors may delay the implementation of part-privatisation. TNT, the company most likely to be a partner for the Royal Mail, has recently announced a sharp drop in its own profits.

Could be Nick, but then again, perhaps TNT is realising that there might not be quite as much cherry picking available as they originally thought.
This might be spin from the Government to butter us up for the news that the Royal Mail stake will have to be sold off for substantially less than forecast to maintain the necessary interest to keep the deal on the rails.
Lets not forget that the EU has pretty well strong armed the UK Government into having to sell off part of Royal Mail whether they like it or not.

The cynic in me suspects that this is just spin to drag the issue on past the next election, and then it will become the Tories problem along with everything else.

Ps No wander potential partners are put off they as i know productivity will be failing at the seams if indeed any union was involved .having said that with big brother at the helm only gives you hobsons choice.Take it or leave it, so its got to have a chance in private hands with a staff sworn in not to have any union conections with in-fifty thousand feet Bye for now.

Paranoid thought: Have all the BBC blogs crashed because of Derek Draper's resignation!!!

The case against ID cards:

"Sensitive information for shooting down intercontinental missiles as well as bank details and NHS records was found on old computers, researchers say.

Of 300 hard disks bought randomly at computer fairs and an online auction site, 34% still held personal data.

Researchers from BT and the University of Glamorgan bought disks from the UK, America, Germany, France and Australia.

The information was enough to expose individuals and firms to fraud and identity theft, said the researchers.

Professor Andrew Blyth said: "It's not rocket science - we used standard tools to analyse the data".

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8036324.stm

HarryNovak, leaving aside your rampant anti-EU tirade, have you ever considered that when one joins a free trade area, it is no longer acceptable to have state-subsidised monopolies, as the two are not compatible?

If you wish to continue the EU debate, can you show me an authoritative source that says 80% or whatever ludicrous figure you think it of our laws are made in Brussels? By authoritative, I don't mean UKIP propaganda.

The EU is used a diversionary tactic by the government (of any persuasion) to deflect from their lack of ideas and progress, and to give the electorate a bogeyman to blame.

It appears that some people are easy to fool.

so what do my fellow posters think of labours latest great announcement they will move all our submarine fleet to the Clyde so that everything is in the one place. smart move or what? any posters from Devon got anything to say about the effective closure of Devonport? if it happens at all it is not going to happen for 5 years.
sid

This is how this will play out...

The bidding companies (or company) will not want to take on the pension black hole, as a result the Government (in pursuit of their mis-guided belief that privatisation is the right solution) will try to sweeten the deal with certain guarantees about the pension fund.

Mark my words, whoever takes part ownership of RM will do so with the pension liability firmly back in the tax payers hands.

Makes you wonder why they're bothering to privatise it if privatisation means the private sector simply takes the good bits and the Governments are left with the bad.

mmmmm sounds like a familiar model - bad bank - bad postal service.

Best of all - in order to get around the situation the Government with the help of their media arm (the BBC) will imply it's the sticky Unions who are the source of all RM's problems.

Too many of the ill-informed public are happy to accept this as fact without thinking it through. The Unions exist in order to protect workers and their rights - why would they force a situation where most of their members would loose their jobs? - it's self defeating as a union with no members isn't much of a union.

What the unions realise - beause their memory is a little longer than most peoples '20 second TV brains' is that under all previous privatisations the workers have lost out, the consumers have lost out and the tax payer has lost out - that's why they are defiant about privatisng Royal Mail.

Good on them I say - like Jesus said 'forgive them father for they know not what they do' - in this case they are fighting for the rights of millions of people (workers and otherwise) when those people themselves don't even appreciate it.

Still - I'm sure there are plenty of fools out there who disagree and still think unions are 'trouble causing bodies who try to prevent progress' - I call these people Capitalists and they are happy to live the high life off the back of someone elses hard work such is their embedded selfish nature.

Any comment on the 'insufficient evidence' for prosecution in the Abrahams case Nick?
I'm not sure the CPS is fit for purpose judging by the number of failed convictions or even trial attempts they've dropped under this government. Very strange!

161 yellow belly

This poste was removed by the moderaters I dont know why but I suspect that one of them read more into it than was there.

#A common problem for you. I would assert.

No not really, the only problem I get with my posts,are when you decide to alter them to your advantage.

Get over it!

#70 writingsonthewall

"trouble causing bodies who try to prevent progress":

Royal Mail provided The Daily Telegraph with a list of 12 of the 92 "Spanish practices" which it claims are now at the core of the worst postal strike for nearly two decades:

* Two or three hour minimum daily overtime - so if 30 minutes of actual work is required and completed, then between two and three hours' payment is demanded;

* An additional allowance claimed for using particular vehicles - regardless of whether the individual has actually driven the vehicle;

* Automatic overtime if mail volumes reach a certain level - regardless of how many ordinary working hours remain that day;

* If a delivery round is finished before the end of the paid shift, the employee expects to be able to go straight home. But if it takes 10 minutes longer two to three hours' over time is claimed;

* Set overtime level is claimed at Christmas, even if there is no need for any additional hours and no extra hours are worked;

* An additional two hour payment on Easter Saturday - regardless of whether any work required;

* No flexibility between different parts of the same sorting office - if an employee sorts letters for a particular postcode, they will not sort for the adjacent postcode, even though both activities are often in the same room;

* Signing in and out for a shift on arrival - so that no record of actual hours worked exists;

* Collection drivers expect overtime pay for doing collections outside usual route - even if it is done within usual working hours;

* Overtime to cover for an absent colleague - a full day is claimed, even if only half day needed and worked;

* Ban on any cross functional working, even of similar tasks under the same roof;

* Additional meal and grace breaks as custom and practice


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1565634/The-Spanish-practices-at-heart-of-dispute.html

#70 writingsonthewall

Good on them I say - like Jesus said 'forgive them father for they know not what they do' - in this case they are fighting for the rights of millions of people (workers and otherwise) when those people themselves don't even appreciate it.

===

It certainly seems as though these people don't appreciate what the CWU is doing for them!

"The worst strike for nearly two decades started yesterday afternoon as postal workers responsible for delivering 80 million letters a day began a five-day stoppage over pay.

The Royal Mail warned people not to post letters and said they would be unable to clear the backlog of mail until well into the end of next week.

Frustrated householders will have to wait days for vital documents such as passports, pay cheques, driving licences and pensions. There was also anger from those awaiting tickets for the weekend's sporting and theatre events. Those with birthdays or anniversaries will miss cards.

It has been estimated the strike will cost small firms £10 million in lost business and delayed postal payments.

It could also mean thousands of voters lose their right to take part in a snap General Election. One million people have not yet registered to vote and can only do so by post.

If the dispute between the union and Royal Mail is not resolved, workers plan a rolling programme of strikes starting on Oct 15 and running every week.

Talks between the two sides began in the spring, with four stoppages during the summer, but the two side have not managed to reconcile their differences.

Workers mounted picket lines outside mail centres at the start of the 48-hour walkout at noon yesterday, which will be followed by another two-day stoppage from 3am on Monday.


Normal services should resume on Wednesday.

Householders vented their frustration on websites. Michael Oakey, from Bristol, said: "I just don't know what I will do at the moment as I'm expecting a cheque in the post and I'm in serious danger of going into debt without it."

One woman said her children could go hungry: "Probably means my timesheet won't get to my agency in time for payment - sorry kids it's bread and water next week," she wrote.

J Brown, from Northants, added: "It's my 50th birthday on Saturday and we are also going away on holiday for two weeks. I really wanted to be able to take my special cards with me but now can't."

The Department of Work and Pensions said it would be sending out 400,000 pension cheques by courier."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1565209/Post-piles-up-as-five-day-strike-begins.html

Post 58 I doubt very much that a Gurkha who has 15 years army experience would find it that difficult to find a job.

I imagine the GBP 1.4 billion is a figure if all of them come in and none work and all claim the maximum benefits.

I fully expect them to work, pay taxes and be positive contributors to UK society unlike many of the others let in over the last twelve years.

72. At 2:47pm on 07 May 2009, grandantidote

Actually I was backing up your view that your posts usually contain less than meets the eye.

#50, wombateye wrote:

".... I can not think of ONE policy that G.Brown has actually implemented since he became PM."

Wombat, you do him a disservice.

Brown promised to get rid of the 10p tax-break. He implemented and delivered that when he was PM.

(Mind you he's not sorted out the totally foreseeable consequences so far!)

Royal Mail Group is not a department of state, but a limited company. It seems odd that the government should take over the pension liabilities of a private company simply because the owners (Treasury and Department for Business, Initiavies or whatever) failed to manage the organisation - and its pension responsibilities - in a responsibe manner.

I bet there are thousands of UK limited companies which would like the government to take pension liabilities off their hands...

Another long-term policy which he implemented was "to abolish boom..." There may have been some other bits, but I forgot them.

52yellow belly
The post was non political it was merely following on with the comment of one or two regarding Joanna Lumley, I mere;y asked if anyone knew whether she had been married as I had only ever seen her with her Mum, Saga is right in his answer to Max sceptic, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or one mans meat is another mans poison, There was no disrespect there, I think she's a very talented lady, and agree with her totally concerning the Ghurkas, but in GBs defence this government has done more for the Ghurkas than any other party, when in power the Tories did zilch, so I have no idea why Cameron was all smiles, unless he had jumped successfully onto another passing band wagon.

76 yellow belly

#Actually I was backing up your view that your posts usually contain less than meets the eye.

With you to back me I should probably get the wife to increase my insurance premiums, you cant see it but I have garlic and I'm holding up a cross to the computer and I have a wooden stake and mallet to hand both soaked in holy water.

HMG wants to put its chairman into Jaguar to justify a loan. Others are saying nationalise Jaguar (see Robert Preston's blog).

The answer for Royal Mail must be for HMG to buy it from itself.

Or allow some quantitative easing: give the Royal Mail to the Bank of England and re-finance itself by printing money. It could give half the money to pensioners prepared to have it paid into a National Savings account and get the money straight back.

Forgive me for being cynical, but these stupid ideas are not so different from what HMG is doing.

68: Dialsquaredomination:
Sorry friend, but Im still trying to make your post out.
You cant, on one hand, support the situation regarding EU legislation & monopolies & then go on later & say that its just being used as a diversionary tactic to defect blame on this (Royal Mail) matter.

Im not sure about the 80% figure that Harry came out with, but can assure you that, in many cases, our Government merely carry out EU instructions & they have little say on how this is done.

If the EU is willing to use muscle with regards to this National matter, then why not use it on the Railways, or how about the NHS?

I can think of quite a few EU countries that have not been playing by the rules to suit their own political situations; why should we keep on trying to play a level playing field that, only theoretically, exists.

To quote your own words:
It appears that some people are easy to fool

#78 grand

that's more like it, we can be civil to each other if we try.

Regarding the Gurkhas, it wasn't the same issue before July 1997 because they had settlement rights in Hong Kong, then a British territory, before it was handed back to the Chinese. After their Battalion HQ was moved to the UK and Hong Kong was no longer an option, they merely sought settlement rights in the UK.

So, also being non-political, settlement in the UK was not a tory issue as from May 1997 we have had a Labour government. However, in terms of pay, pensions, and general conditions, they have been let down by both parties when in government over a period of many years. Belatedly, we are now trying to catch up and treat these men with something like the respect and honour that they have shown us. Still not gone far enough though, and we are dragging our feet and doing things begrudgingly as well, which brings shame on us.

#78 grand

Married twice, currently married to Stephen Barlow.

#78 grandantidote

"...so I have no idea why Cameron was all smiles, unless he had jumped successfully onto another passing band wagon."

===

Maybe he needs to jump onto band wagons because someone keeps nicking his bike!

https://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/06/david-cameron-bike-stolen1

"Home Office rejects four out of five Gurkha residency test cases"(breaking)

"McBride gone missing" / "Draper steps down"

"Hundreds of thousands of innocent people will have their DNA profiles retained on a bulging system which continues to dwarf that in comparable countries."

"Ed Balls ducks child protection funding"

"Treasury must find extra £16bn for gilts plan"

Nick?

#63, HarryNovak wrote:

"Pay attention, folks.
rayatcov has kindly indicated the source of the troubles at the Post Office and you're all ignoring it: the EU."

HarryNovak,

I'm no lawyer. But the EU press release you referenced says,

"Postal Services in the EU are covered by the 1997 Postal Directive (97/67/EC). Through the creation of a robust regulatory framework, the Directive guarantees citizens a high quality universal postal service, The Directive aims at ensuring the best possible service through a progressive opening of the market by gradually reducing the scope of the reserved area (initially mail under 350 grams, amended in 2002 to 100 grams and reduced on 1/1/2006 to 50 grams). This new Directive published today is the final step in a long reform process that has already seen large sections of EU postal markets opened to competition, with very positive results. The Directive requires Member States to continue to ensure a universal service for all customers including collection and delivery of mail at least 5 days per week at affordable prices throughout the territory."

The directive does not require the privatisation of any existing state-owned postal authorities. It progressively reduces the weight level for the carriage of mail, below which competition must be PERMITTED.

I have seen absolutely no sign of any competitors coming forward to provide a universal postal service (pick up and delivery at a reasonable price) - which the EU stills seems to believe must be guaranteed by each member state.

Even at current weight levels, the "competition" still relies on Royal Mail to deliver over the last and most expensive mile... Since Royal Mail make a significant loss handling competitors' post, they should be told to make a sensible reassessment of costs and just put the prices up. That would either make competitors introduce their own last-mile service - most unlikely - or restore a bit of common sense.

It may be a commentary on the flood of EU regulations that a directive is introduced which implies more than one organisation running parallel post distribution networks, when physical mail is reducing rapidly.

Ho hum... Keeps employment up in Brussels, anyway.

Grandantidote Joanna was married years ago but very briefly to Jeremy Lloyd, the scriptwriter and famous for Captain Beaky's Band. She has a grown up son Jamie from Michael Claydon and a granddaughter Alice.

She is now married to classical orchestra conductor Stevie.

84 Yellow belly

#Maybe he needs to jump onto band wagons because someone keeps nicking his bike!

I have to admit I found that hilarious I'm not sure whether its the way you tell um. or that I'm just happy that whoever nicked his bike has done their part to keeping death of the road, like in politics he's a accident waiting to happen.

#78

"I have no idea why Cameron was all smiles, unless he had jumped successfully onto another passing band wagon."

It is always amusing how Labour Party supporters believe they have a monopoly on principled redirection of policy. Dropping Clause 4 was nothing to do with populist appeal, oh no, it was the measured and thoughtful response to a groundswell of opinion among the electorate at large against ownership of the means of production by the State. The fact that it turned the Labour Party from an unelectable dinosaur into a toothsome, political everyman was mere, happy coincidence.

Whilst there is no doubt that the Conservative Party has, and will continue to appropriate moderate and populist policies in an effort to again render themselves electable, let's not pretend that they are doing anything other than "New Labour Redux".

Who in their right mind would contemplate blowing a shed load of money and management time on a bid where the prize was a minority stake in a firm like the post office and with the majority shareholder being Brown & Co.

Just sell the whole dam thing off.

Well make 200 million quid if we just give it away.

56 Susan-Croft wrote:
"Brown has already moved away from the position that Lumely thought they had agreed on."

Spot on analysis there. I think the fragrant Joanna will discover that a month is a very long time in politics. Time will tell.


27 Sagamix
"...but I can't be completely alone (can I?) in just slightly preferring Harriet Harman"

I'm speechless.

At least David Cameron is young and fit enough to ride a bike.

Can't see Gord. on one - can you?

I was at the health spa across the road to Parliament a while ago and they told me Gord. went in there once years back!

88:

Just about sums you up. Laughing at other people's misfortunes instead of criticising the thief who is the real culprit!

The government is worried - GOOD!

Having experienced the TNT takeover in the Netherlands I can say it has been absolutely dreadful for the postal system there. The prices to send mail have rocketed - it now costs about three times the price to send a package from the Netherlands to the UK than the other way around. Also, it seems the delivery of international mail into the Netherlands is handled by another, apparently uncontactable, company who can deliver items within days, or several weeks or not at all.

The mail service should be within public ownership. It is an asset to the country and is not a profit-making operation. Naturally making losses hand over fist is not acceptable and ways should be found to balance the books. But selling off the most profitable parts of the enterprise (namely business mail) can only mean disaster for private mail.

Is obvious now Joanna Lumley was not playing a clever ploy that she swallowed everything Brown said to her, which was what I thought from the start.

I think she is out of her depth to be honest, you can see her anxiety.

Woolas is a truely dreadful man in my opinion.

I think this shows the Government up for what it really is totally inept, they must go.

88:

The biggest accident to happen to The UK has been Crash Gordon. Whatever David Cameron is assumed to provide in the way of accidents in the future pales into insignificance when compared to the economic shambles created by the multiple pile up engineered in part by our dear friend The P.M.

Hi nick i see a few have taken the road in disscussing mrs lumley now,She still doing a good job but i see traiter brown ducking out,What is it means testing the oldest to make sure he wont cost the country to much dosh. forgot to mencion the other day the impeckable turn out of those two men did you note the medal ribons i did they weren't awarded for being first in the diner queue they were for service to country with little or no reconition,keep at em joanna

Just watched the interview with Joanna Lumley and Phil Woolas. The Minister was uncomfortably put on the spot by a very clever Lumley. She should be a political commentator. He looked distintly uncomfortable trying to defend The Government's position. Let's see what transpires. It reminded me of a stern Headteacher illiciting an apology out of a peesky little miscreant in school.

I do not take this business of potential partners for the Post Office being put off. It is most likely a ruse by the Labour Party to avoid a vote in the Commons. They will come out with a statement that no partner could be found so there is no point in having a vote. Save a lot of difficulty for them will it not.

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