From unthinkable to unavoidable

If Cameron's actions have the desired effect and halt the gravy train all well and good!

Nick,

Others are born to be leaders - Gordon was born to be a follower. Always way behind the curve.

Still haven`t heard a word from Gordon about making Labour MPs pay back their ill gotten gains. Only Harriet generalising, thereby avoiding doing anything about Labour MPs who have milked the system.

At least 'Dave' appears to be doing something to lance the boil in the Tory Party - what have Labour done until shamed into it by Cameron's move.

Frankly the system is corrupt - from the openly partisan 'Mr Speaker' to the majority of the Labour Party - it's one big open sewer.

The people of this country deserve an immediate General Election to clean out the stable and get a fresh government in: The current one is is starting to rot and the smell is appalling.

Well, it's good that they're paying back the expenses, of course, but the fact remains they were quite happy to claim them in the first place, and are only agreeing to pay them back because they got caught.

If Cameron thinks this is going to make me trust him, he is sadly mistaken.

A number of houses/flats in London between 300-600 should be purchased by parliment for M.P's to use. They should remain the Property of the State. Each should have a £1000 a year budget for maintance. All other expenses on the property are to be paid by the M.P's.

They can Buddy up is they like to keep the costs down.

Thus solving the expenses row once and for all.

So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,

No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"

I have just watched the BBC news and was horrified to see a helicopter used to fly over some MPs private house.
What are you playing at?
Do you fail to see that once the politicians have been dealt with , there will be a keener interest taken in the BBC and how it spends our money?
Helicopters are not cheap and cause pollution just like other flying objects and just to stimulate the politics of envy.
I think little of Lord Foulkes ,but he has a point when he says there are those in the media earning much more than backbenchers and for what?
In the BBC s case , they earn their money by being IMPARTIAL , don't they?

At last Dave shows some leadership...

He know has high ground and can ask why "Hazel" still fit for the labour cabinet.... GB dithers about getting rid of her.......

Last weeks private chat

this weeks silence

dither dither dither....

Prompt action! That's what we got from Cameron.

After months of complacency we now see who can get off the blocks first to quell a reaction which is so damaging to a country desperately in need of leadership.

Yes they've all been at it but it's done and now it has to be sorted.

Cameron put himself in the firing line today and I have to say how impressed I am at the way he handled some very awkward questions from the press.

As for Brown. Where is he?

As for the Liberal party well they can't do anything yet because they're still waiting to here what's still to come. There aren't many of them so it can't be too bad.

It has unfortunately overshadowed the diabolical unemployment figures which is what they should all be concentrating on.

Interesting to hear an ex deputy speaker say that it is the tradition for a speaker to stand down about a year before the next election is due. Does our present speaker have no respect for this country's traditions? Or does he have to be dragged out kicking and screaming?

Labours only ideas are to stop things in future....

They dont understand... we want the past disgrace fixed and fixed soon.

We need a totaliser of Ammount Incorrectly Paid - and Paid Back

With the highest 3 in the Incorrectly Paid shown every day - how long will MP want to be top of that list ?

Name and Shame...

same old same old, Nick, Labour ( and Gordon ) to the core ! journalist - I don't think so !

Where is Martin Bell when you need him?

The worst 5 MP offenders in each party, should be targeted at the next General Election by a 'Clean Up Party' because only their removal from seats will be a punishment they will understand.

Once targeted, hopefully their own political parties will see sense and deselect them before the public have to deliver justice through the ballot box.

Please come back Martin Bell and lead the 'Clean Up Party'.

Claret Scott
Filton

Accomodation for MPs? If I recall, in the basement of Madame Tussauds, there was a large space called The Chamber of Horrors........

they have office space at parliament, in there constituency
and they have there homes. A second home in london as well maybe

#5 like the idea but also they need to think about what a MP needs to do his job. I know they need to have private meetings away form the media etc , so they should not all be in the same building.

but it has legs your idea.

they should live in the constituency that they represent, no more parachutes etc.

WhiteEnglishProud's idea is interesting - but has he worked out the cost? A one-bedroom flat in london will cost you at least 200K so we're talking about 60-120 million quid. And the tax payer would have to pick up council tax, utilities, repairs etc.
And remember that housing costs are only one element of 'allowances' and 'expenses'. Don't forget admin staff (expensed), constituency office (expensed) etc...

Fascinating interview at lunch time today ... where we find out that a BBC newsreader who presents for a few hours each day is apparently worth £95,000 a year. As a taxpayerand a business owner I can most assuredly tell you that in my opinion she most definitely is not worth anywhere near that amount. She is no Jeremy Paxman. Time to show the British public how their money is being spent at the BBC too.

Clear distance between the parties, but the country is still swimming against the tide of Brown stuff

Can't wait for the sequel to all this - local Councillors and their expense claims? Imagine the can of worms there!

So Cameron and the Tories are the "do nothing party"?

Well, it sure looks like Labour and their illustrious 'leader' have been left standing.

As usual.

Dear Nick,

Is it at last the 'Do nothing' party is doing something whilst the 'ruling' party rots nosily away?

No time for a novice or more like no time GB and his light fingered cronies?

Xxxx
June is such a nice time for a revolution, do you not think Nick?

Cameron takes action, Brown skulks in the overseas undergrowth, Harriet the untruthful makes a sweeping non statement, afraid to say anything that will alienate the faithful since she still has visions of replacing Brown, and much better to let him alienate the faithful by curbing their appetites for lucre at the expence of the taxpayer. When can we see the demise of the dreadful little man masquerading as speaker ? As a fellow Scot I am ashamed of his behaviour. The SNP become more attractive by the minute. Westminster is now as corrupt as it has ever been, I suspect even Cromwell himself would be amazed at how low the " mother of parliaments " has sunk.

What's more, none of it will stop the questions as to why a hitherto obscure BBC newsreader is on 92.5K a year, presumably plus allowances. Thanks to George Foulkes the pay and allowances genie is out of the BBC bottle. How many more are earning three times what many of us would consider a good year's pay?
Meanwhile credit to Cameron for getting something on the table fast. I'd sooner it was something a bit more structured than what Dave thinks is "excessive" and I'd be happier if we'd been treated to a comprehensive list of all claims, not just the ones which the Telegraph has decided to release. Still, it's a start.

"Trailing in David Cameron's wake" is one way of putting it.

Today was always about how Cameron would deal with the squalid scandals among his own kind and Dave didn't disappoint.

But at the centre still is Billy-no-friends Brown who's been left high and dry.

Brown and his cabinet need to get their act together soonest. It's all about trust, as I point out here. Meanwhile where's Gordon?

https://theorangepartyblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/dave-leads-way-wheres-gordon.html

What DC says is all well and good but, and its a massive but, MP's are still in control of the rules and what gets paid and what doesn't. This is no good in a purportedly democratic country.

I hear the word "transparency" alot, but basically crooked people are in control of the public purse. As employers WE have the right to set pay and conditions not MP's.

I fail to see why parliament considers itself sovereign. It is not. They are simply the elected representatives of the poeple. And on simple topics such as pay and conditions there should no longer be MP's voting on it. Its not their concern unless they want the job. We have not got the brightest and the best under current conditions so a rasdical change will niot harm us the people very much.

It demonstrates how lacklustre the monitoring procedures were that only now have the Tory's (and no doubt soon to follow Labour) have suddenly decided to set up 'scrutiny comittees' after being busted.

Any decent private sector company has managers check staff claims for excessive amounts and once submitted the accounts department do again as a matter of course. It amazes me that so many highly dubious and spurious claims were just signed off without question, and that so many public servants were more than happy to abuse the system they are meant to represent.

nick. A surprisingly even-handed comment. Well done. Can we have more of this impartiality, please?

I thought Speaker Martin was a socialist who believes in everyone equal, re-distribution of wealth and no to nepotism.
He actually believes in building up his family wealth, re-distribution of our wealth (Not his) and using tax payers money for his family to use at will. SOCIALIST HA HA HA GOT YOU

For once I think Norman Tebbit has come up with a good idea!...

DON'T VOTE LABOUR
DON'T VOTE TORY
DON'T VOTE LIB DEM

...at the forthcoming elections.

VOTE FOR ANY ONE OF THE OTHERS!

Not unavoidable but essential

I see that the BBC show Conservatives MPs' houses but not the Labour MPs'. Got to make a point of course.

So Nick, I hope you agree that Cameron has done the right thing and shown real leadership. Brown in comparison is totally out of sight. What he does is general, like his apology for all MPs. At least Cameron apologised for his own and said "SORRY." Brown couldn't even say that.

For once I was impressed by Polly Toynbee. I an interview she was totally off-message saying Brown is finished.

Did I understand correctly that Cameron is putting some of his MPs to the sword for putting in detailed claims, while himselfclaiming the absolute maximum allowable, but on a single receipt? If so then he really does have no shame at all.

The Politicians just do not get it, the tax system in the UK should be the same for EVERYONE. I have my own business and had a tax investigation.
They only allow me £2 a week to use my home as my office.
They will not allow me to buy a suit on the company because of duality (I will use the suit for personal use).
They disallowed a hotel receipt because I took my wife to the hotel for the night, even though I proved I was there on business.
We can only recover mileage at 40p a mile if we prove that it was business use.
I am ok with the above only if it applies to EVERYONE, in all walks of life we can justify why we are different to everyone else but the tax laws must be for everyone.
The Politicians say they are different, I know plenty of people that commute to London to do the day job and work late at night WHY DO THEY KEEP WITHIN THE TAX LAWS!!! because they have to.
The one thing that really gets me is that Labour are socialists and believe in re-distribution of wealth but this LOT only believe in the re-distribution of our wealth not their wealth.
Also Labour are socialists and do not believe in the SILVER SPOON (Nepotism) at birth, they moan moan and moan, until they become wealthy then what do they do, help their own children with the same SILVER SPOON which actually tells me that they are not true socialists but only jealous of people's wealth.
This LOT (Labour) are only interested in themselves and their family and should be sent to the wilderness of politics, they have failed in everything they have touched.

"7. At 6:44pm on 12 May 2009, Diabloandco wrote:
I have just watched the BBC news and was horrified to see a helicopter used to fly over some MPs private house.
What are you playing at?
Do you fail to see that once the politicians have been dealt with , there will be a keener interest taken in the BBC and how it spends our money?
Helicopters are not cheap and cause pollution just like other flying objects and just to stimulate the politics of envy."

I thought exactly the same, wonder how much CO2 the BBC generated in its "flight of envy".

what did I say? ! as long as someone doesnt try and claim the moral highground on this and Cameron trots in , its a joke, they are writing cheques are they ? with interest ? are they going to admit to fraud ? no didnt think so ,and hey if it doesnt have a receipt doesnt mean they are not getting the money from somewhere else, maybe they went to the cashpoint near the yacht

If he can do this now why didnt they do it when they took office ????? no one forces them to take the money, there are no rules, these illusive "its within the rules", rules that say you must take the money, get rid of the lot of them, why do we need them >? get the Queen to take over again, at least you knew your head was on the block all the time with them, the Parliament Parasites are nice to your face and stab you in the back, and come back and stick in back in again and again, and tell you it for your own good.

17. At 7:01pm on 12 May 2009, StrongholdBarricades wrote:
Clear distance between the parties, but the country is still swimming against the tide of Brown stuff.

No we're up to our necks in it and our children will as well.

Will Government debt be know in the future as "Brown stuff"? It should be.

So where are we in the game then? Cameron leading methinks.As always Brown
is dithering and getting left behind,not very quick on his feet is he?

Still no resignation letter from the Speaker,he really is clinging on for
dear life,despite being the worst Speaker in living memory.

Anyone know where Smith and McNulty are hiding? They were so busy not so long ago telling us they were right,all in the rules etc etc.

Cameron you are a STAR just get PURDY on side as your deputy!!



CHECK MATE GORDY!!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

OH BY THE WAY ANYBODY IN THE MEDIA CONCERNED ABOUT THE 250,000 PUT OUT OF

WORK SINCE THE NEW YEAR??

GUESS THEY DONT MATTER?

Cameron benefits from a mortgage payment of £24,000 per year. ?????? For how many years has this daylight robbery of the electorate by the Tory Leader been going on ??????? We can begin to understand why the French
Revolutionaries resorted to tumbril and guillotine. However, for us the stocks might do the job. All
these disgusting parasites, Cameron et al who've been robbing us blind for years, should be sentenced to a term in the stocks in some very public place - as public as Parliament Square - we, their victims, could pelt them with all kinds of non-lethal and appropriate garbage. It would make us feel better and might well
take the smirks off their nasty overfed faces.

I must say i agree with the labour peer foulkes when he asked how much the bbc presenter was earning and what she claims in expenses!!! i bet the bbc are not whiter than white either, this expenses stuff is a lot of nonsense i couldnt care a less who claims what,i bet given half a chance we all do the same, i know i would, what upsets people is that they cant get away with it!!!!

@ disgusted / eaton

OK, you will never like Cameron or his party, but for all your carping, ask yourself this - what has Gordon Brown done? After all, the details of his party's expense abuses have been in the papers for a couple of days more than the Tories, so they have had ample time to put this in place.

Also, it's not just that DC is making people pay back money, it's that he's gone a step further and said no claiming for food, furniture, etc etc. Surely that's a good thing, whoever starts the ball rolling?

Reform suggestions. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).

100 MPs.
The house should be open for session everyday except weekends and public holidays.

Salary paid in installments over 4 years. Salary is linked to a combination of UK inflation, GDP, national debt, unemployment level, crime figures for the current year and subsequent 3 years. 5 weeks annual leave which can be taken anytime. Standard public pension.

No claimable expenses and allowances.

The perks?
.
Free simple but clean accommodation (eg. room with toilet and wash basin) at Westminster with free utilities (electricity, gas, water) and security.
Free self-service free launderette with dryers.
Free 24 hour self-service meals/sandwiches/drinks when the house is in session.
Every MP will be provided with a seasonal pass on public transport to/from their constituency.

The rewards?

A chance for genuine responsibility and to serve the country and the people. And perhaps, at the end of the service, to be recognised as honourable.

For the first time in a while, a leader of his party has been seen to be taking decisive action over something which is very damaging to not only his party, but to the credibility of Parliament on the whole. Cannot fault David Cameron for making swift decisions to start the ball rolling in paying monies back. It does not mean that he is wholly trustworthy but it goes a long way in seeing a politician actually doing something positive, rather than making bland, vapid statements to the press. It should not have taken Cameron's actions for the government to be spurned in to action. It just shows that knee jerk politics have never really left us, for all the spin. Still there is a long way to go before the trust in politicians can be restored, but a complete review of the expenses as well as the role of public servant should be comprehensive to say the least. The whole thing must be looked at again with regards to how best these people serve our nations interests without putting their pockets first. Get over that hump, then anything is possible!

re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ...

1. IRAQ WAR
... only party to oppose it

2. EXPENSES
... quite a bit cleaner than the other 2 (yes?)

3. ECONOMY
... Cable rated way ahead of Osborne or Brown

should reap an electoral benefit, shouldn't they? - quite a large one too, one would have thought - if they don't do extremely well next time, then what on earth's the point in being right?

Nick, you blog "none of this will rescue the careers of"

Do we really believe that the politicians will be overcome with remorse and give up the search for power? The thick skin shown by some Ministers is staggering. They stand and spout that their claims are within the rules so why should it affect their careers?

Honourable is not a word to be used in Parliament except ironically.

No one is too concerned as pension rights are guaranteed for life along with possible promotion to the Lords or that other gravy train the EU

#38 excellent point, the media are the problem ,lets the mps get on with their job,brown has much to sort out!!!!!

Repaying money after being caught out isn't good enough. Why did they claim it in the first place? Greed and arrogance, is the answer, plain and simple. Do we want such people representing us? The answer is a resounding 'No'!

So Dave, and Gord, I suggest that since both of you have been greedy, as have many of your cabinet and shadow cabinet colleagues, that you sack them before handing in your own resignations. Today, not tomorrow.

A general election is not the answer.

Unfortunately, neither sackings and/or resignations will solve the problem of governance in the UK. The entire political system is corrupt and needs bulldozing. A fresh start is required. The country needs an entrenched written constitution, and a bill of rights to protect our rights/liberties, together with a supreme court capable of striking down unconstitutional legislation. The present 'sovereignty of parliament' lies at the heart of the problem.

The country's new constitution should have a section dealing with standards in public life - what is acceptable and what is not. Those who fall short should be barred from public office for life, together with loss of all pension rights etc, and harsh penalties for corruption of any kind. Both parliamentary chambers should be fully elected. Hereditary privilege should be ended. Ideally it would be a republican constitution, as a monarchy as presently constituted represents the aristocracy and the privileged classes.

They're giving the money back because they've been caught. Their superior Tory Morality amounts to not being caught and giving tax breaks to stop people divorcing. Can't wait to find out what the media wants me to be angry about next.

A solution to the two homes mess might be to build a purpose-built MPs hotel where they can stay when in London free of charge. Meeting rooms could be available too, but don't most of them have an office in the Palace of Westminster? MPs might be expected to stay in London while Parliament sits, and travel expenses could be paid on a reasonable basis ie weekly commuting unless justified in advance.

Im asuming that the miss claimed expenses being paid back will

a) incure interest at the Inland Rev late payments rate (7 or 8% APR i beleive) from the date paid to them to the date repaid

b) No MP paying back payments will be allowed to increase the mortage on their second home to free up the cash for the repayment.

Very large cheques????
Seriously Nick - £10-20k is not really a very large cheque for any of these politicians and if they view it as such, then they are not ready to lead. This is small change when it comes to government, the shame though is that it is coming out of their own pockets!

"As a result, some Tory MPs are writing very large cheques tonight".

=========================================================================

Not as large as the cheques that our New Labour friends are going to have pay when HMRC send them a bill for unpaid tax due on the sale of their 'flipped' second homes.

I'm going to london in two weeks time for work and having several meetings with civil servents and one with a minister, parlement is not sitting (their in yet another recess) so i am wondering if I can use any of the MP's flats to stay over night, after all they can not be using them as they get the costs paid if the the property is sole used of goverment business.

As i'm in London for goverment business, I have been asked to meet the Minister to supply unpaid for advice (I will not even be charging the tax payer for travel, lodging or food), so I MUST be elagable?

Any MPs want to email me via the BBC and offer me the use of the tax payers funded flats?

"sagamix wrote:
re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ..."

With any luck they will be the official opposition next year but with enough seats to actually put up a solid fight to the Tories (I doubt it is too much to hope for them to actually win out-right)

Hopefully Labour will end up as a fringe party like UKIP, or the Greens.

PUZZLING at 42

GUESS YOU WILL STAND THEN AND LIVE LIKE A STUDENT?

Some people have families even a few have a life outside Westminster?

SWALLOW YOUR OWN MEDICINE. . .

Can every one do as I have done and write to the Inland Rev Hot line and report any MP, that has used "Second Home Flipping" or has declaired one hone to parliment as their second home and one to the tax man, for tax fraud.

Also send a copy letter the the leader of the MP's party, your MP, the PM, the Speaker, the house ethics committee and the commander of your local police force demanding that the full force of the law is applied to this case.

One can't help wondering why Brown hasn't told all his MPs who have claimed for swimming pools, moat clearance, and tennis court repairs to repay immediately.

Meanwhile, I am flummoxed as to why I should be helping the leader of the opposition to buy his luxurious 'cottage' in the country by paying his mortgage interest. I'm sure when I bought my own villa I had to pay both the mortgage and the interest myself.

I did enjoy watching Lord Foulkes put the boot in to the News 24 presenter (Carrie something or other). She has been annoying me for a considerable time by her arrogant assumption that her audience are unable to understand statements or speeches that we have just been watching 'live', and that we need her to provide her own paraphrase. It wouldn't be so bad if she could get it right, but she usually doesn't. The idea that she is 50% more valuable than an MP, or worth three times as much as a qualified nurse or teacher is just laughable, and explains a lot about the state of our society in my opinion.

Well I suppose paying back some of the money is a start!
I suggest all expenses be suspended (except essential travel and overnight accommodation)until a new "fule proof" system is in place - that would certainly speed up the process.
Use the Olympic village for future accommodation as per suggested by others. (We do own it already don't we? Well I thought we paid for it anyway..)
Have a residence rule on people applying to be considered as MPs ie at least 5 years living in the constituency they hope to represent.
Elections at regular defined intervals, set times to prevent this fiasco on timing of the next election.
I could go on, but I get tired and annoyed and disheartened when I think about the absolute mess everything is. (Speaker, IT scemes, ID cards etc etc etc)
Tony Blair spend many pounds and travelled many miles trying to sort out his legacy. He shouldn't have bothered - THIS is his legacy.

I suppose, now that we have one BBC employee outed in the salary stakes you might like to volunteer your expenses and salary too Nick, how about it? Must be more than an autocue reader, no?

Meanwhile Brown makes a statement on crime (does he understand irony?) to rehash old policies and take someone else's credit, the unemployment figures leap, and the Job Seekers figures are massaged

Where is the comment on that?

I hear that it is the Lib Dems next, and then the Telegraph turns to the worst troughers. This story has so many legs it has spawned whole litters of piglets

Dear Nick

You state: Labour who've been left trailing in David Cameron's wake....I seem to recall two Labour backbenchers had already announced their intentions to repay monies much earlier than the CAmercon press conference.

The point I made on my blog was that there was a case for all MPs to examine their own consciences first before the Party Leaders/machine step in.

https://www.petergkenyon.typepad.com/

Then at least we, the public and/or party activists have a better chance of (re)assessing the abilities of the party representatives that we are either going to vote or campaign for.

All we are getting from the Tories now is top down Westminster village stuff. And of course that's what you report. There is, however, a role for improved governance of our political parties from the constituencies down to the Houses of Parliament, as well as a much stricter system of Parliamentary Allowances.

I'd like to pick up on a couple of ideas. The CofE, bless it, has manses in most parishes, why don't we have 'state houses' in each constituency, a hotel (olympics site) in London, then we don't need to pay them anything more.

I also wonder how many of these people [MP's] would ever get a job in the real world paying them £60-70k a year. By the way is the Tower of London still operative.

After Fred Goodwin, for heavens sake don't let us make the same mistake again with MP's and boost their pay to abolish expenses. The effect on their already extremely generous pension would be another enormous benefit to them that would cost the rest of us millions.

Has anyone else complained yet about Ed Balls & Yvette Cooper claiming four sets of allowances between them for two houses. All within the rules of course, if we did it we'd be up for benefit fraud!!

I think we can draw a line in the sand as far as the Conservatives are concerned. All wrongs have been righted!

As for Labour? Still hanging on to their filthy money! They have no shame! The party should be thrown out of government and prohibited from office for decades to come!

#4 Disgusted

"If Cameron thinks this is going to make me trust him, he is sadly mistaken".

=============

Disgusted, you probably weren't going to vote for DC anyway.

Also I don't think DC or GB or NC think for one minute that by saying a few niceties means that instant trust will be created.

Trust has to be earned and each of them will have to start somewhere; people will have see if their actions are louder than words.

Think if DC did nothing, something he's apparently good at, we'd all be saying: "He's doing nothing" and we'd be right.

Well we can't say that now, can we, because he has does something. And just you wait, New Labour will be bringing up the rear to do something too.

We could say quite rightly: "He hasn't gone far enough".

But then that's why he said that this is just the 'start'.

=========================================================================

"Labour who've been left trailing in David Cameron's wake, have tonight rushed to say that they would go further still - limiting the generous mortgage payments which the Tory leader, amongst others, benefits from to the tune of over £24,000 a year. An awful lot of money but just one receipt".

============

Nick, it now sounds as if New Labour wrote this question out for you to ask DC.

Did they?

And did they also say how much your assets and income should be before it would be possible to claim this permitted allowance? I say this because there are many MPs in the house with assets totalling more than a million . Should we set the bar at £29,999,999 before you are exempt. This is laughable as was the question and you should be ashamed of yourself, Nick; it's sneering class envy again.

#22 fingertapper


Spot on on all counts.


Are we related?

48. At 7:55pm on 12 May 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
They're giving the money back because they've been caught. Their superior Tory Morality amounts to not being caught and giving tax breaks to stop people divorcing. Can't wait to find out what the media wants me to be angry about next.

==================================================
dh - do you really think your precious labour party can claim moral high ground then - after all they are supposed to be the party of the people - you know - redistribute the wealth - help the poor, that kind of thing.

I'm not suggesting that the tories are any less fraudulant than labour on this issue, but they're no where near as hypnocritical as people like prescott - man for common people - yeah right.

I think those of you complaining about Cameron claiming the full allowance for his second home mortgage payments are missing the point. It is fair to pay MPs outside London expenses for a second home as long as they do not claim for all the other stuff like bath plugs, porn films patio heaters, pool cleaning horse manure etc., which is exactly what he promised was being stamped out from today. Any house in London is likely to require more than the maximum payment available for mortgage payments so he is not being unreasonable.

Of course, Broon, caught again with his troosers doon, has made no such commitment, so the Cabinet can continue filling their boots at our expense until Kelly finally works out how to stop this.

As for Martin, the man is a disgrace and and an embarrassment to High Office and must go TOMORROW!

Having looked at what David Cameron has suggested it looks correct ie interest / rent on second home, utility bills, travel and occasional over night hotels.

BUT I think the rent / mortgage interest should be limited to the AVERAGE price / rent of a 2 bed flat withing 30 min travel time of Westminster at the time they move in.

Setting the value on their move in time allows for property price changes for new MP's. Also Mortages interest payments must be limited to 75% of the value of the property.

MP's should NOT have the interest of a 5 bed mansion paid for or a
westminster bothole walking distance from the commons!

To allow for new MP's we should set up a goverment mortage system that loans MP's 110% of the average cost of a 2 bed flat withing 30 min travel time of Westminster BUT the fees department ONLY pays 75% of the flats value. the MP must fund the remaining interest AND the repayment of the loan!

eaton @ 6

So Dave thinks its "Opportunity Knocks" does he?

well he is a spitting image of the young Hughie, that's for sure - how can anyone trust a man with a face like that?

funnily enough, and slightly contra consensus, showing true Leadership would have been to mount a robust defence of his people - perfectly possible based on the "split location fixed allowance in lieu of salary" argument laid out so eloquently by that poster yesterday - Sarantium, I think he was called, something like that, @ number 6 on the relevant blog - but, David being David, he's gone straight in for some cheap populism - trying to catch the wind, as he always does - say or do anything to gain power, Mr Cameron - not Head Clown for nothing, is he?

Sorry No.29:

It was established that they were allowed second homes to facilitate their work. Few could really suggest this is wrong. Who could afford two homes on a theoretical £64,000, especially when one is in London. Cameron claimed his allowance for that. Nothing dodgy, nothing sinister. He handed in one maintenance bill in 8 years. A legitimate claim in my book, either ways he is paying it back.

Under this system and with the acceptance that their basic pay is inadequate and that they are in the unenviable position of having to use their responsibility granted by constituents to do something about it, I don't really have a problem with them claiming for works and upkeep on the grounds of their homes. Imperfect but I won't blame them. It was an established and unsatisfactory nod and wink to try and drag their salaries into reality.

However, when one improves their home on the public purse and then sells it on before the individual has really made use of the expenditure, when they avoid paying tax on the profit and when they lie about using a relatives address to maximise profit, they they are simply on the take.

This is apparently a 'plague on both [all] your houses' situation, I can't help feeling that all added up the Labour transgressions appear somehow more craven.

How much of this would have occurred if the claims had always been public?

An independent pay review in consultation with the office of a newly appointed Speaker is required to address their rates of pay and to clarify the home allowance rules.

For all those suggesting this is 'human nature', I say no. Many things are human nature but our dignity requires us to suppress or channel them elsewhere. Don't remove politicians from temptation. Demand honesty instead. I want politicians who say 'despite what the rules entitled me, my morals entitled otherwise'. We must break wholesale the expectation that people should behave only in their best interests and the rules should be formed accordingly. It is inhuman in action and irresponsible in result.

btw. That weekly top three 'erroneous claim/paid back' chart sounds like a grand idea.

Again Brown has missed taking the lead - so now he can only follow. Paying back small sums is actually meaningless. It was the fact that the look them that is the problem. However, at least Cameron is acting. Only the other dat the Labour Parliamentary Labou Party was writing to all Labour MPs saying "they had doe nothing wrong" whilst Brown was gving Blears, Darling et al. "his full confidance". Brown still just does not get it. He needs to act and not defend. He has again completely misjudged the impact of this scandal. He is meant to beable to do this type of stuff but yet again he is making it very clear he cannot.

The sums of money involved are trivia. The actual cost to the public purse of buying Blears a few TVs or keeping an MP in porn film is not much (though any mock Tudor beams are in bad tatse anywhere at any time). The problem is that they took this money.

Their, or rather now Labour MPs, continual wittering "its the rules at fault" - the rules did not make them claim for stuff that is clearly outside the rules. They did that. They wrote down the numbers and signed at the bottom - not "the rules". I downloaded and looked at the rules and in the beginning section the "Fundamental Principles" makes it very clear that the TVs, Porn, Mock Tudor Beams, etc. are not within the rules and just because they got past the Fees Office does not make t right. And still Blears stands there beaming like a Cheshire Cat failing to answer the accusations and just repeating that "She has done nothing wrong" - which is like waving a red rag at a bull.

#30 Porter

"Did I understand correctly that Cameron is putting some of his MPs to the sword for putting in detailed claims, while himselfclaiming the absolute maximum allowable, but on a single receipt? If so then he really does have no shame at all".

======================

This allowance is paid to all and has not been a source of the problem regarding MPs expenses; it's an entitlement.

Granted you may think why is this paid to wealthy people but it's not means tested.

There is no way this perk is on the same level as the clearance of the moat, chandeliers, flipping the second home etc.

As I have said before, if you think it's despicable what level of income or assets would you allow it to be paid.

Put another way, it like an employer paying London Weighting.

London Weighting is not means tested whether you're Fred the Shred or Joe Public.

Put yet another way. When GB sincerely presented his £150 per diem allowance. Did this apply to 'poor' MPs, a bit better off MPs or filthy rich MPs? Of course it applied top all of them.

I don't think we can start means testing expenses; it's discriminatory. It should never be a question of he/she has got enough so he can't have an allowance; rather it should be he/she hasn't got enough so should have an allowance.

That way a political career will be open to everyone regardless of their wealth.

How do you distinguish between any of the Leaders or Parties?

They're all the same and they've ALL got their s'necks in the troff, their pathetic apologies only come because they've been caught. Why does anyone vote at all? Our WHOLE political system is flawed & nothing will ever change. Every ordinary working man knows that.

41 Grawth

Not heard from You for a while. Hope you're well.

said

"OK, you will never like Cameron or his party, but for all your carping, ask yourself this - what has Gordon Brown done?"

---------------

Well true but can't you see that the "opportunity" point is spot on.

Look at the reaction on here tonight, Grown men are swooning about "Dave the Great Leader". What Dave has done here was as predictable as night follows day I'm afraid, scrabbling for some hypothetical moral high ground that doesn't exist but appeasing the easily impressed. As I said yesterday this is not a party issue but continues to be exploited as such.

.....Unemployment up to 2.25 million.....

.....the largest level since 1996.....

.....and the largest rise since 1981.....

.....'things can only get better'.....

I know it's off topic but it shouldn't be.

The current economic climate and the unfortunate way that MPs have shot themselves in the foot by their greedy expense claims obscures the simple fact that MPs are underpaid. A culture has been allowed to develop whereby because it is not politically acceptable to raise salaries, maximising expense claims as a substitute has taken place. We need to ensure that MPs are drawn from the brightest and most experienced people in the country; paying them less than most managers in business and many in the public services does not make sense. Now, before I get digitally lynched for expressing such a viewpoint, I have some conditions to attach to this proposal:
1) MPs may not have any other employment, company directorships etc. whilst they are serving as an MP
2) All new MPs must carry out unpaid work in business or the voluntary sector (i.e. real work, not a "token" management role) for at least a week, possibly two, per year in a sector which reflects their own area of interest (e.g. health, finance, defence) for say their first tow or three years in parliament. As Lord Adonis's recent rail trip showed, real life experience as a user or provider of public services can inform policy for the better. It seems to me that too many MPs are now "career politicians" with little or no experience of the real world.
3) All expenses arising from their work as an MP must be reclaimed from valid receipts. The second homes allowance is minefield so I'll reserve comment until the Committee on Standards in Public Life has come up with a scheme. However any new scheme will have to be modest, proportionate, independently audited and publicly accountable otherwise it will not be acceptable to taxpayers.

I cannot see myself voting for any of the main parties after this. And yet there is only one set of expenses claims that really matters here - David Cameron's - as he will be the next Prime Minister and has power to hire or fire others in his party or government. Like other MPs, his behaviour betrays his contempt for the electorate - my elderly parents struggle to maintain a house and garden and cannot afford any help as their pension is so small. I help them all I can while the future Prime Minister takes money they have paid in taxes to remove a wisteria from his brickwork. Moreover, his lack of integrity is breathtaking - he did not have to take this money and he could have repaid it at any time before today but he waited, perhaps hoping the claim might not be exposed or perhaps craving the media highlight on his repayment of the money.

KEEP CALM CHAPS, I'LL JUST QUIETEN DOWN THE BLOODY PUNTERS ...

Here we go ... standard cruise damage limitation and recovery!

Cameron "appalled" ..... Brown "dismayed and shocked" ..... Clegg "apologises". What rank, malodourous cant! What revolting and dishonest hyprocrisy? Are the party leaders actually pretending they didn't know what was going on? Only now has the penny dropped? They've all been caught with their hands in the till along with the other swine. They are just as culpable. In fact, more so.

They could have done something about it years ago. Instead, they (along with very many other MPs) fought tooth and nail to prevent the grubby truth coming out. Don'd insult our intelligence, you spivs! Pleassssse!

My admiration and respect for those MPs who DID press for discovery, as well as the individual who leaked the information - and The Telegraph for showing us what serious journalism is all about. Press on, worthy hacks. The Telegraph action is one of the few rays of hope in this filthy sewer!

I notice that the piggies are still in denial. Speaker (God, what a joke) Martin's appalling behaviour yesterday was a disgrace. The man should be removed immediately. Any further suggestions that the police should investigate the leak must be squashed. If the individual is ever discovered, I trust Her Majesty will at the very least Knight him!

Most importantly, there MUST be an immediate General Election. If not, perhaps an appropriate organisation would kindly accept my services in preparing an adequate stockpile of Molotov cocktains for armed insurrection! I'll be happy to supply the petrol and bottles myself.

I trust tactical voting will destroy as many of the more venal incumbants
in the forthcoming local and European elections. All three traditional parties must receive a severe thrashing. There are empty beer bottles floating down the Thames that are more deserving of our votes.

Hopefully, a new party will emerge over the coming year that may offer a more honest and decent repository for our trust.

God save the Queen. Death to the spivs!

I always thought that the Labour people would be novices compared to the Tories on the issue of fiddling expenses, and other forms of legalised misappropriation ,todays revelations seem to confirm that view.It would be interesting to find out how many of these Tory grandee cheats voted against the bill to introduce the minimum wage. Cameron appears to have assembled a bunch of professional scroungers as part of his shadow cabinet,a decision that one would expect from a former leading light in the thuggish Bullingdon Club.

What Cameron has announced is obviously not the long-term solution and he only has the authority to impose regulation on his own Party. However, at least he has understood the central issue which is that these claims, although within the rules, are completely unacceptable for elected representatives and they must be reversed as soon as possible.

It completely contrasts with Brown whose response, let us not forget, was to simply repeat the mantra "these claims are within the rules" and whose big idea for reforming the system was giving MPs an allowance just for turning up. I think Brown's relative silence today shows his authority within his own Party is waning.

#68 Saga

You are in danger of being the Polly Toynbe of the blogosphere.

I love your posts but don't be bitter


....you are not Polly are you, I am sure we have some celebrity bloggers?

Eatonrifle wrote @ 6:
So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,

No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"

So you of course would have preferred him to do nothing. Of course you
would. If I were you I'd keep quiet. You're making a fool of yourself.

#44 Saga

re the LIBDEMS and the following 3 big and burning issues ...

1. IRAQ WAR
... only party to oppose it

2. EXPENSES
... quite a bit cleaner than the other 2 (yes?)

3. ECONOMY
... Cable rated way ahead of Osborne or Brown

should reap an electoral benefit, shouldn't they? - quite a large one too, one would have thought - if they don't do extremely well next time, then what on earth's the point in being right?

===========

Absolutely right on all three points; cannot disagree.

I also agree that they will reap an electoral benefit.

By this time next June, the Lib Dems will be officially installed as the main Opposition Party.

Gordon's successor will sit far down on the left hand side of Nick Clegg in the newly arranged House of Commons with Plaid Cymru and the Irish lot behind him.

It would interesting to see if MPs continue to address each other as the Right Honorable member for... or if some of them will be addressed as the Right Dis-Honorable member for... or even the Right Horrible member for...

To me the most appaling thing about this whole fiasco is their blatancy in bending the rules and totally ignoring the spirt and they tried very hard to keep it a secret from us. In any other occupation they would have been fired or arrested. Is there an equivalent to Nick Freeman,the celebrities favorite lawyer, at Parliament?

68 Sagamix

Have to disagree with you there. Yes true leadership is sometimes backing up your team in adversity. However it is also essential to lay down the law and if wrongs have been done, in or outside of the rules, action has to be taken, even if not too popular with the troops. It will be interesting to see who if any of the Tory MPs will lose the whip by refusing to comply with the directive. I suspect no too many.

I doubt that Gordon Brown has the same authority with his MPs, hence him sending M/s Harman to to the press to announce a revue by committee.

6. At 6:41pm on 12 May 2009, Eatonrifle wrote:
So Dave thinks its "opportunity Knocks" does he,

No doubt he "means it most sincerely folks, he really does"

===

As opposed to the inaction of Gordon Brown, true leader of the "Do Nothing" party.

Individuals amy or may not see David Cameron as a potential and suitable Prime Minister, but it is hard to avoid recognising that his performance this afternoon was masterly. Although his available options were perhaps somewhat limited I think he went as far as he could short of withdrawing the party whip from the worst offenders.

Be he good or bad as a Prime Minister (and that is something only time will tell) his political instincts were clearly more in tune with the public mood than Gordon Brown's; GB seems to have virtually gone into hiding on this matter (surprise!) and only emerged today to announce some crackpot scheme for police officers to walk people home at night. (So much for "Tough on Crime..." etc) Brown had a wonderful opportunity to outflank the Conservatives on the subject of expenses and allowances, but appears to have lacked the strength of character to tackle his errant cabinet subordinates.

Whether Cameron has done enough to stem any loss of support from the electorate is something that will only emerge as time passes, but I feel that Brown's vacillation over dealing with manifestly discreditable conduct from his accolytes can only do him more damage. He has probably done more harm to himself than Cameron could ever have hoped for.

PMQ's tomorrow should be interesting......

i see the PM "supports the speaker".... two lame ducks leaning on each other for support.

Ok so the DC's make them pay it back policy is not perfect but it is a hundred times better that Harman's committee (when in trouble form a committee, kicks the problem into the long grass...)

Next move is to look at the "fraudulent claims" as oppose to the "honest mistake".. and call in the fraud squad...lets see some of these crooks in handcuffs being sent to prison for conspiracy to defraud.

At last.....the opposition taking a huge scandal by the scruff of the neck and showing the Brown mob in their true colours....time for a general election.....come on the 'blues'.....

Makes Brown and Labour look the worst of the scroungers by a long way.

Gordon Brown seems to be doing his infamous MacAvity trick again ... where is he?

68:

True to form you ape rifle and prove yourself to be just as foolish!

68, Hi Saga

Agree the Sanatarium (whatever) post at 6 yesterday was the highlight of yesterdays blog. Very thoughtful and considered, truly unusual on here.

I truly want to stay non-patisan on this, as I really don't see the expenses thing as a party issue, but its difficult when you see the oh so obvious grasping for some party advantsge by Cam, you just knew this would happen. I was hoping forlornly that they would all take a step back for a few days and go for some consensus on how to respond and make the inevitable changes but the Populist Bandwagon was just too tempting.

The rearguard action is getting a bit draining eh and we're supposed to be the organised Trolling mchine of the Labour Party. What's the ratio of Clowns to us, must be 20/1 , what are the Polls, 2/1? Strange that.

I laughed my socks off with this; it made Gordon Brown and the rest of labour look like a bunch of crooks who have no understanding of reality.

My guess is that Brown is throwing a lot of phones and printers at people right now, because Cameron made him look like a completely unrepentant crook that still wants to fleece the electorate for every penny he can get.

Cameron also made the speaker look like a villain because Cameron's just going right over the speaker's head with an attitude of "you're doing nothing, so we're going to do it for you, and we're going to do it the right way, not the labour troughing way."

That's right! No other measure than the sacking, criminally prosecuting and repayment of all taxpayers money corrective measures will be sufficient to apeace the electorates outrage and anger.

This is because what is really at stake here is nothing more and nothing less than our belief in democracy.

Get rid off all charlatans and fraudsters passing themselves as MPs.

Even if it means that there will be maybe one or two MPs left standing leading with common decency, good sound judgement, morals, ethics, conduct, discipline and so on.

We the electorate do not want or need mobsters and fraudulent so called MPs!

Just heard that Hazel Blears in handing back thirteen thousand quid to the taxman for previously undisclosed CGT liability. Here words on the BBC Radio 4 Nine O'clock News a few minutes ago were of the extreme weasel variety.

None of what you said, Pet, is true. You've been caught thieving and forced to hand back the loot. You're not sorry for anything - apart from being caught. Off you go, you ghastly little dwarf chav. Get yourself a more appropriate job. What about shelf stacking at Tesco? You can't do too much damage there. No-one's going to vote for you again as an MP! Oh, the awfulness of you. Language is not enough.

This is just the tip of a huge iceberg. This gravy train is not just for MPs.

Imagine all the "necessary" expenses going to top civil servants, quangoes, special advisors etc...

When Alistair Darling goes looking for £5 billion of efficiency savings, the first opportunity he can find is right under his nose!

At last someone with integrity and the understanding that the stables need to be cleaned out . Thank you Dave Cameron ! I was wavering, but now I think I will vote Conservative for a better Britain.

The icing on the cake would of course be confirmation that the Tories actually do want to withdraw from the odious apparatus of the Brussels regime, but you can't have everything at once.

The next thing to do is get rid of that silly Speaker of the Commons Michael Martin - he's no Betty Boothroyd or William Lenthall.

Vote Tory, Vote Tory

Ps - Can't wait to duel with all of those ridiculous Labour supporters, who justify the worst government in post war history (worse than the Callaghan or Eden govts combined!). Come on!

WE @ 54

Hopefully Labour will end up as a fringe party like UKIP, or the Greens

that is not quite what I have in mind, Mark

Concentrate the minds of our political leaders eh?

Did it escape your notice that the unemployment figures reached 2.2million today and that the quarterly increase was the fastest since 1981 ?

Makes you wonder what the priorities are here ? The biggest story is the greed of 600+ MP's - not the plight of 2.2m unemployed - or am I missing something ?

Or is the public disgust at expenses really a venting over the failure to manage the economy or hold the government to account ?

I am not a politician but follow politics and found that tellivising PMQ's was one of the first and most influential steps forward to opening up how politicians work in the debating chamber.

There are a few factors that seem to be generally overlooked when "expences" are discussed:-
1. It is fair that an MP should be able to claim expences to attend parliament (in the same way as if an employee of any company is sent to a different town to work during the weeek he should receive the costs of travel and accomodation back so long as it is the most efficient return /nett expence
2. If a second home is actually cheaper than hotel costs then this should be allowed however WHO ACTUALY CHECKS THESE THINGS?
3. Second homes only realy became an issue decades ago when parliament sat late into the evening or even till the early hours and thus public transport (and even taxi's) were not available at the end of a sitting thus in order to stop MP's sleeping on the floors of the houses claims for second homes were accepted.
4. about 15 years ago the late night sittings were virtually extinguished (partly to encourage attendance by female MP's.) and the attendance of MP's in London has been made easier by rescheduling PMQ's etc. Most MP's are in their constituencies from Thurs eve till Mondayso overnight stays in London should only be for 3 nights and about 40 weeks a year (now are hotel bills are more than mort interest bills? in a year?)
5. How far do the expences go? does it include staff /personal secretary ? if so how much are MP's wives (when employed by an MP and thus staying at the same place) paying towards the "expences"?(if any?)
6. WHY ARE THE GOVT OFFICES WHO CONTROL PAYMENTS NOT DOING THEIR JOB AND ADMINISTERING THE RULES PROPERLY AND IN THE MANNOR THEY WERE INTENDED?
7. As a second home are all expences claimed excluded from calculations for Capital Gains?
8. Possibly it is now time for MP's to be required to have a home IN THEIR CONSTITUENCY -this should stop MP's claiming expences to get to their costituencies from homes miles away!! (As some MP's represent London areas, and cannot claim second homes, maybe we can exempt them from homes in the constituency) [Look at the ballot papers for declared homes at the next election -may even create a bigger turnout!!]
9. Where do allowances stop? and expences begin?