Wars in numbers

Nick,

Two things...

From a statistical point of view (and I am certain the one of most interest to British servicemen) is that fighting in Afghanistan represents the most lethal prospect of any serving soldier in this country's history (check it out).

Politically, this is very difficult for Brown. One the one hand, a full inquiry would expose Iraq as an illegal war and scupper Blair's 'greatness'. On the other hand, it is not something Flash would want shortly before na election.

BTW: Afganistan should have an "h".

See you in the pub.

Its nu lab burying Iraq before the election
nice and quite like it never happend,not us govener we never lied and lied and lied we never outed a truthfull civil servant and hounded him to his death come on then mandy brown lets get on with it.

Thr Russians sent 250,000 troops into Afghanistan in the 80's and they couldn't win the war then.

What on earth makes Brown think we can win it this time?

We should get our lads out - and quick!

British troops should be pulled out of Afghanistan as well as from Iraq ; young soldiers this nation can ill afford to lose are now dying for nothing other than to bolster the self importance of their political masters. They are fighting in a war which because of the way they are being constrained by their rules of engagement , they cannot win. The allies have the numbers, and the firepower to totally destroy the Taliban on both sides of the Pakistan border but lack of political will makes this impossible. If war is not fought with a final objective and without restraint , it cannot be won and hundreds more British soldiers will die as a consequence.

Russia were glad to see the back of the place and you do have to wonder how many more members of the UK armed forces are going to have to die before any real sort of stability is achieved.

Sorry - make that 104,000.

"It is unpleasant to reduce the death of men and women who are serving their country to a statistical comparison but the statistics do tell an important story :"

each death tells an important story that will never be told

I'm sure the 'h' error in Afghanistan was a typo error because in the other instances it was okay. Nevertheless the BBC proof reader has fallen down on his job. Any significant withdrawal would now be difficult because it would mean that the deaths of all our servicemen and women until now has been in vain unless of course we can persuade other members of Nato/The EU to fill the gap created by such a move. In view of the present credit crisis I'm not sure we can afford to continue to pursue a war in Afghanistan without more help from other countries because of the enormous costs involved both in terms of money and human life. We simply don't now have the money available to equip our army properly and pay them not only for their service but also the crippling injuries suffered in the theatre of war. Our weak financial position means that we are now caught in a cleft stick. Whatever we do it's going to be a mighty difficult decision. I'm glad I'm not the one to have to make it.

#1

I don't see this as being politically difficult for Brown so much as being politically difficult for all of the parties, since they all, by and large, agree with the mission. It is, after all, a UN mandate, so in effect the UK would be in dereliction of its duty if it did not commit troops.

I think Nick has, however, accurately reflected what more and more people (or should I say hard-working families so Mr Brown will understand?) are beginning to express, which is a deep concern firstly for the safety of our troops, but also for the political, moral and security justification for this war.

Perhaps it is time for one of the major parties to argue for a new debate at the UN on whether this is a conflict worth pursuing any further.

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!


Rudyard Kipling
The Young British Soldier

Both Iraq and Afganistan were products of Tony's conversations with God rather than any particular national interest that could be realised. The problem is that if we pull out it will be seen as a victory for extremism.

Brown is clearly looking to any possible 2009 election by following Mandlebrots edict to pull the plug on Iraq. Let's hope people remember which party got us into this Middle Eastern mess in the first place...

Nick,

I did a word search in your 'Wars in numbers' blog today, and I was surprised not to find the word 'Oil'. It would be interesting to include an Oil statistic in your comparison between the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. How about, at my most cynical, the number of deaths in a year as a proportion of the total oil production of the country - eg - will it show that the USA and the UK put more money into defence and protecting service men in the country that produces the most oil? I wonder !!

As an alternative argument - The war in Afghanistan could be stopped in weeks, with the right resources, if the USA and the UK spend time locating and destroying the poppy fields.

The announcement of a withdrawal, plus the VAT cut, postponement of some Post Office closures and other measures leads me to suspect that the February election that is being hinted at could be a distinct possibility.

The politicians need to make more effort to explain to people why our troops are in Afghanistan in the first place, then maybe more people will be willing to support our brave troops.

In the same way that Jim McGovern didn't get with the programme, I note, an SAS Captain resigned some time ago because he couldn't get his head around the fact that the Afghanistan war is different. Understanding, a sense of context, and patience seem common factors in these otherwise unconnected events. It's no comment on the bigger campaign or individuals, but I wonder what situations like this have to teach us or, to take a Zen Buddhist view, what is it that we have to unlearn, reshape and reform, or let go of?

My impression is that the big certainties, prescriptions, and affiliations are breaking down in favour of something smaller, more agile, and more embedded. It may be coincidental but a similar shift in perspective is happening as physicist shift from the classic view of space-time theorised by Einstein to a more uncertain and growth orientated view of string theory, or economists shifting from the certainties of Capitalism and Communism to something more akin to Taoist economics with Keynesianism, or people abandoning big companies and party alliances to embrace small business and social fairness.

The Koran has been interpreted by some as tilting more towards the mathematical in their art and brutality of relationships with women, but I'm not aware of anything that suggests that censoring "graven images" or mistreatment of others is the default position of the Koran. Likewise, there's nothing in the Koran which says that self-selecting Mullahs are the absolute authority or Muslims should go around hacking other people to death because they're not on the same team. In that respect, Afghanistan is strategically similar to any other failed state or newsgroup so, I suppose, similar solutions would apply.

I'm not a general but fewer troops with a higher focus on targeting ringleaders, and a larger focus on soft power looks more appealing to me. As with most things, this isn't a battle of strength but the mind. If you attack force with force then effort continues to pile into that, and trying to win turf wars just divides people. Political campaigning, product marketing, and more than a few wars lend authority to that claim. But, if a more mature and engaged approach is followed then the extremists tend to stick out a bit and support melts away as their madness becomes more clear. As with most problems in life, the battle isn't "out there" it's "in here".

#9 You say

I don't see this as being politically difficult for Brown so much as being politically difficult for all of the parties, since they all, by and large, agree with the mission. It is, after all, a UN mandate, so in effect the UK would be in dereliction of its duty if it did not commit troops.

I think there was as much lying about Afganistan as there was about Iraq. Remember John Reid's

British troops could leave Afghanistan without firing a shot

#9 You say

I don't see this as being politically difficult for Brown so much as being politically difficult for all of the parties, since they all, by and large, agree with the mission. It is, after all, a UN mandate, so in effect the UK would be in dereliction of its duty if it did not commit troops.

I think there was as much lying about Afganistan as there was about Iraq. Remember John Reid's

"We are in the south to help and protect the Afghan people construct their own democracy. We would be perfectly happy to leave in three years and without firing one shot because our job is to protect the reconstruction"

I thought war was good for the economy
and the gun man connection

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

you can never lose a war if you want to die
our problem is we want to live

Shellingout #3

Totally agree.

Or we say UK will match the troop numbers Italy and Spain send to Afganistan.

I served for 20 years in an infantry unit.

Afghanistan represents a strategic threat to the UK in terms of drug-running and the exportation of religious-fanatical terrorism.

The problem is that the UK no longer has a truly self-sufficient, strategic military capability. Therefore, it doesn't take an archbishop or a general to work out that we're on a hiding to nothing by being in Afghanistan. Pity the poor bloody infantry.

It's a lost cause for as long as the UK, with its allies, is unable to exert overwhelming military force on to the Afghanistan situation in order to allow its people to thrive in freedom and for its politicians to exert their will on behalf of the Afghan people.

Until this is so, operating in Afghanistan will remain a grinding war of attrition until, through lack of proper resources, we'll be forced to withdraw. Meantime, our politicians will continue to fly in for photo shoots and soundbites and we'll all be expected to think it's a war we're winning.

British troop deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan since invasion is 311, I'd expect the USA figures to be about 10x that amount.

Yet just how many local civilian deaths have there been, has it reached 1m, does anyone even care?????????????????????????

Most importantly, will Blair and Bush ever face a war crimes trial or are these trials now only for the Wests victims of oppression??????????

Mr Robinson

"How long before the widespread relief that Britiain's involvement in Iraq is coming to an end is replaced by..."

Wouldn't it be good to get to the widespread relief stage first. There is no widespread relief since we are still involved in Iraq.

So what on earth are you talking about ?

Nick,

Can you ask Mr Brown why they have cancelled the FRES programme.
Estimates vary about how much has been spent on the project by the MoD so far without producing a single vehicle, but it's not difficult to get beyond 400 million pounds by the time the 188-million-pound cost of the canceled Tracer and Boxer programs, assessment phase work on FRES, technology demonstrator projects and other spending is taken into account.

It's totally shambolic of this wasteful government.

22#

I agree with 95% of what you say, the only reservation I have is with the drugs connection. By that reckoning, Columbia presents an equally direct threat.

Unfortunately, that connection will never end until the idiots amongst our population stop filling themselves with recreational narcotics. They'll always find a way to get the stuff through.

That in itself is not worth our service personnel dying for. Taleban? No direct threat to the UK. Not worth the lives of British Troops.

Al Qaeda? Thats a different matter. At some point we'll have three choices. Withdraw and gain nothing. Force Israel and the Palestinians to sort their act out or declare a plague on both their houses and walk away. I totally understand what you're saying about exporting terrorism, but truthfully, we ought to maybe at least give some consideration to cause and effect.

Personally, I'd buy all our oil from the Russians and leave the Middle East to sort its own problems out. Afghanistan has always been a basket case and always will be. Leave 'em to it.

23#
Might I ask where your civilian casualty figures come from? Been to either Iraq or Afghanistan, have you?

We should not "pull out" of Afghanistan, nor should we see it as a political or bush/blair ideological war.

We are part of a coalition of peacekeeping forces in Afghanistan and should remain there to finish rebuilding the nation that had been torn apart by the Taliban and civil war prior to the "invasion".

Don't confuse this with Iraq which was an illegal and unjustified invasion. Afghanistan is a country that had become a training ground to international terrorism and religious fanaticism. We shouldn't be so selfish to think its in our national interest to high tail it when things get tough and soldiers die - do you think that those 133 men and women who died would want their sacrifice to be for nothing? If we left and allowed the Taliban to pick up where they left off it would all be a gigantic slap in the face to those brave servicemen and women.

Could we justify pulling out to those who have sacrificed years in extremely difficult conditions or to the Afghani's themselves by using some of the above statements that we should pull out? This is not a "war" especially a "war that cannot be won" - if we can help build a nation in which the people of Afghanistan can see benefits everyone not just the few then our work will be done. We should not let the cynical hatred of the few deprive the many of the chance of a better life!

As with IRAQ more death warrants dished

out by default by our morally & financially

BANKRUPT GOVERNMENT.

Until this is so, operating in Afghanistan will remain a grinding war of attrition until, through lack of proper resources, we'll be forced to withdraw. Meantime, our politicians will continue to fly in for photo shoots and soundbites and we'll all be expected to think it's a war we're winning.

...

Can you ask Mr Brown why they have cancelled the FRES programme.

a realistic time estimate of a war with afghanistan through to completion would be approximately a 500 year project.

23

May I ask where your civilian casualty figures come from?

25
Simple. Its not being built in a labour constituency. We need FRES definately more than we need Future Lynx (should have let Westland go under 20 years ago) and more than we need Nimrod MRA4, or the carriers.

See if you can get hold of a copy of Lions, Donkeys And Dinosaurs by Lewis Page. I'll never look at defence procurement the same way again.

"One the one hand, a full inquiry would expose Iraq as an illegal war"

Wrong, as per usual

Iraq repeatedly violated the terms of the 1991 ceasefire and numerous UN resolutions.

Nick,

I'll tell you what. You ask what the British troops were doing withing days of originally going into Afghanistan.

I'll tell you what they were doing, they were playing football with the so-called Talibhan. That's what they were doing, you ask anybody who was out there. Go on, and do you know how they messed up. Yes, you also know the answer to that, it was the disastrous Iraq adventure.

There will never be 'victory' in Afghanistan. I'll tell you what, just nuke them.

Due to the fact it actual fails to be a 'war' in any conventional sense, and is more a police action hamstrung by local corruption. Afghanistan has a very good chance of devolving into an unpopular, seemingly unwinnable, 'Vietnam' style conflict if we stay there. It is therefore inconceivable that we have any intention of staying for the long haul.

CEH,

I enjoy your posts (although I don't always read them all the way through) but quoting from your last:

"instead of charging in all over the place in some mad display of "butch", would it be better to take a more subtle, gentle, and patient approach: replacing the macho with the more qualitative and seductive? Is this less about "them" and more about "us"?

My answer, in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan, is a resounding Yes

Phoney Blair and Gay Gordon should have those stats pinned to their foreheads, updated and then ramed down their throats until they choke.

The very least we owe our service personnel is to give them a clear and honest answer as to why they risk their lives.

But of course neither of those two vile, pathetic creatures of deception would ever be so brave.

Dear Nick,

Does a withdraw of British troops from Iraq mean MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?

Can you ask GB, or any (HP) source, next time you see him or them or her?

Xxxx
ps
(Chances of that happening, nil)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Dear Nick,
I spent 22 years in the Armed Forces, and am very Hostile towards the government on the way it treats them.The MOD, are morons, when it comes to the treatment of our Forces, and deserve all the Flak they get, because they have failed in their duty of care, and the News papers Need congratulaing on the way they have shown the general public what misery the Mod and White hall have inflicted on them ITS disgracefull.
But, THERE IS ONE AREA THAT NO ONE HAS EVER BOUGHT TO THE NOTICE OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND ITS AN EVEN MORE MASSIVE A DISGRACE THAN LISTING THE DEAD.
"THE WOUNDED ARE IGNORED," TOTALLY IGNORED, AND IT IS THEY WHO BEAR THE BLUNT OF MODs, FAILURE IN DUTY OF CARE.
" THE QUESTION TO BE ASKED OUT RIGHT, IS "HOW MANY ARE THERE WOUNDED IN ACTION, NO MATTER WHAT THE LEVEL OF WOUNDING IS CASUALTY REPORTING FOR THE WOUNDED IS PURPOSELY BEING IGNORED WHY, AND HOW MANY ARE THERE ."?

I can understand the argument for the our presence in Afghanistan, but I wonder if the strategy is having an adverse effect on Pakistan. Having made life difficult for the destabilising groups in Afghanistan many of them have moved over the border into Pakistan, from where they further destabilise the whole of the sub-continent and the rest of the world. We were told earlier this week that three-quarters of terrorist plots in this country have Pakistan connections.

A victory (whatever that means) in Afghanistan will result in a more lawless area across the border in Pakistan. Keeping that proud and powerful nation as a stable and friendly entity is a more important objective than the not insignificant efforts of the removal bullies masquerading an zealots.

freecornwall

This failure to report the wounded figures has always struck me as more spin.

You can't expect any more form our political establishment BUT where have the press been on this?

The media have let themselves be treated as mushrooms at best or complicit at worst.

Dear Nick
Your own Blog does not refer to any injured --------"WHY?"

Dear Nick

"How much has the compensation has been paid out by MOD, to British armed forecs personell since 2003, for INJURIES SUSTAINED whilst on duty, and how much is this now costing the country, "?

It wouldn't surprise me if the Government signed a deal with the Iraqi government to ensure that a minimal number of troops remain in territory for several years.

That will mean that no inquiry into the whole operation will take - as "troops are still deployed and exposed"...

I wouldn't be surprised if Iraq falls to pieces (like Yugoslavia) once Western attention eases.

It's hard to see how a handful of troops can control events in Afghanistan, which covers more territory than the UK and France combined...

There doesn't appear to be any effective national government as I understand it. It seems that regional chiefs do their own thing and only execute "policy" in line with government "decisions" if it plots with their own interests.

How can any external body pretend to sort out a people which chooses not to develop a genuinely "national" political structure?

Tony Blair needs to be tried over Iraq. It's very important that he faces a judge and jury and answers questions about this rotten war of his.
Then he should be taken out and shot! The snivelling hypocrite.

I remember a “little” war not so long ago when everybody got upset about some little dictator who thought he could impose his way of thinking on everyone else. I’m proud to say that we the British, Europe and the US stood up to him and his “ideals”

Millions gave their lives for democracy and freedom. Unfortunately civilians suffered greatly too, as did infrastructure, Europe was a mess and yet we fought on because we knew we were right.

To be frank, we have a job to do so lets do it. Now is not the time to bleat about the “cost”. 133 brave souls that gave their lives, let’s not let that sacrific be in vain because we don’t have the guts to finish what we started.

I for one am proud to say I’m British and am glad we and our Allies stand up to bullies and to fight for weak to protect peoples' rights.

The Afghans have the right to a free and fair democracy too.

Brown is pre-electioneering and Mandy is peddling in the backroom pointing the way. The consequences of their actions on the lives of soldiers or any other persons does not even feature in their twisted stratagems.

What Brown and Mandy don't realise is that their credibility with this nation is (like everything else they touch) spent.

They should call the election and prepare for their own withdrawal!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

afghanistan has always been said to be the just war the war unlike iraq that had a purpose, those purposes have not change one bit at all. if all nations were to pull out of iraq now because the had finnancial problems and public opinion was against them we would see terrorist attacks in the west again. the problem with wars is that people die life get ruined for the soilders and for civilians, this war is best to be fought still at this prsent time in afghanistan than in the streets of the west.

Apart from the political rhetorics I am still puzzled why we have stayed so long. Really, for whose benefits are we sacrificing so many lives and spend so much money which we can ill afford?

The invasion of Iraq was a vicious intervention based on lies: lots of lies. The government should be ashamed of itself but can't be bothered even to do that.

The government doesn't want the usual inquiry so that the policy errors that caused the war and which made the war difficult to fight are exposed. This is shoddy and disgraceful but par for the course with the current lot.

The business in Afghanistan is about being part of NATO. It is a legal action based on international treaties. However, I fail to see why the UK, Canada and Holland are the ones bearing the brunt of the fighting.

Our casualty rate could be reduced significantly if our forces had the equipment they need. As a proportion of GDP our defence spending is now less than that of Turkey. How can we expect to win this war if the MOD is having to enforce cut-backs? Doesn't the government understand the meaning of commitment?

In my view Afghanistan is winnable if the diplomatic offensive could be as effective as the military one. The war, if it is lost, is being lost because of corruption and injustice within the civil administration. There needs to be political and economic success there before we can consolidate the considerable military gains achieved by the dedication and sacrifice of our armed forces.

Most Afghans, like their neighbours in Pakistan are decent and hospitable people. They do not want the intolerance of the Taliban and the other fundamentalists. They need to be won over. We will not achieve this by bombing wedding parties and supporting corrupt officials.

Are the Taleban Islamist extremists bent on the destruction of the West, or Mafia style drug runners?

I believe the latter - and given the Worldwide shortage of morphine for medicinal use why don't we just buy up the crops and neuter the Taleban's source of funds.

We shouldn't be sending our troops into that environment to act as policemen.

why is it that we can refer to the Russian activity in Afghanistan as an invasion, but our activity is given the much more righteous title of War?
And indeed Nick, it does have a direct impact upon national security - the longer our government stays in Afghanistan as an invading force, then the more threat there is to all us everyday people going about our lives. It's always the innocent who get caught up in the reprisals. 133 servicemen have died... shame you don't mention how many innocent Afghanis have been slaughtered in this mess. Not to mention the rarely mentioned on the BBC fact that it was British and US training and money that created the Taliban in the first place, following on from their creation of the mujahideen prior to that. So let's cut this "we're doing this out of a genuine concern for the lives and democracy of Afghanistan" standpoint and see our governments actions for what they are - an invasion of immense violence that will solve very little of (if any) its supposed aims. Now about that massive pipeline....
PS do you know that our government has official defined terrorism along the lines of:
"The use or threat of violence to achieve a political objective"... hmmm, seems they left out the sentence that states we only apply that to others though, right?

Freecornwall #39

You are 100% spot on. Not only is it a disgrace how they are ignored it is shameful the way the military hospitals have been shut down. The man now in charge is the party with the most guilt as he was in charge of the purse strings . Brave men and women were disregarded so the morally corrupt of the country could live on benefits and Nu Labour could get there vote. When we undertake to send our fighting force into conflict we must be prepared to provide the very best of care to the wounded no matter what the cost in surroundings that are familiar and pertinent to the armed forces. How many on the Labour benches have been anywhere near a gun never mind had to look down the business end of one being fired at them in anger? How many of their son's have marched to war? It is no wonder that T B-liar and McCavity Depravity had hanging for TREASON removed from the statute books. The way the armed forces have been treated under this vile and contemptible I was going to say Government but that would give them some legitimacy for what they have done. So I think I will settle on flock as they are nothing but a bunch of sheep (my humble apologies to the sheep of the world I mean you no disrespect)

When we send more troops to the front line lets send one for one from the PLP including and up to the front bench and the grinning idiot himself McCavity Depravity.

Modern weapon systems have a lot of 'intelligence' built in, and as a such, give a sigificant degree of military leverage.

Which, in laymans terms, means that less 'boots-on-the-ground' are needed to achieve the same or more effect (projection of force).

Therefore, less troops may be required in a given theatre than would have been the case in the past, to achieve the military mission.

So, the relatively small numbers of UK military personnel in Afghanistan may have more effect that you would think, provided they are backed up with the appropriate equipment.

On a political and economic point, I think the EU military, as a whole, should take on this burden.

NB. I worked with the military, on various systems, from roughly 1969 ... 1992, when I quit, because I felt that the MoD and some suppliers were badly letting down the Armed Forces. Although I have been out of that business for sixteen years now, I perceive that nothing much has changed in that respect.

In reality these religious fanatics are going to fight us somewhere.
The more that are tied up in Afghanistan the less there are to fight elsewhere.
Its a simple case of the ability to fight in numerous theatres at once.
Hitlers mistake in WWII was to open up the Eastern front before he had finished off Britain.

Of course if you think the best option is to engage these people on the streets of London, go ahead, just give me plenty of notice so that I can move further away.

The Senate, Taliban, Dipset and the Diplomats are a new york rap group made up of Juelz Santana, Cam'ron, Jim Jones, Hell Rell, Krumbsnatcha and others (also known as the Goonies) they are currently engaged in street war beef with G-Unit.

Well Nick, perhaps it's time political commentators - such as yourself - took it upon themselves to ask he government some hard questions about what equipment our troops are given, and how the MOD's spending has little bearing on what's needed out there.

Ask about the Bowman radio - which the desk jockey's like to say works fine, but the people on the ground are usually less complimentary about.

Or about how we're plunging billions into buying Eurofighters (most of which will end up mothballed) for future wars, when the current one needs more helicopters and raptors to support ground troops.

#39 Free Cornwall

A very good point that needs airing, but sadly I fear it was ever thus.

We celebrate our heroic winners and praise our glorious dead, but those who come back incomplete - in body or mind - are quietly forgotten.

There was a time when leaders of nations boldly led their armies into battle. Aside from pestilence and famine as bi-products of war, casualties were largely restricted to the combatants.

Now war is waged by cowards from bunkers well away from its theatre. If it isn't "over by Christmas" at least there's the "morale boosting" (for the politician, not the soldiers) photocall - highly dangerous, there could be shoes flying about.

In modern warfare casualties are greatest amongst the innocent bystanders - "collateral damage" as the euphemism goes. Land mines. Cluster bombs. Our presents to the children of battle zones.

There are times when war may be necessary, but as a last resort, after all efforts to avoid have failed. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan fall into this category and in neither country is the war winnable.

So we exit Iraq leaving it in a mess and a seed-bad for further turmoil. We send more troops to Afghanistan knowing that there is no possibility of a favourable outcome.

I don't get it.

Western tactics in Afghanistan are insane.

The troops on the ground are sitting ducks.

Much better to use ongoing intelligence to identify threats to us as and when they rise then use special forces and/or tactical air strikes to eliminate them.

And start buying the opium!

Home grown radical Islam is a much bigger threat to us than Afghanistan. What's the government going to do about that?

11. Graud999
You are right, Blair and Bush clearly did not do any research prior to invasion either about the people or the history of the place.
Their ethos was like the naieve missionaries of the 19th century that of “Inside each savage Muslim there is a grateful Christian.” It never works.
You hear a lot of Labour MPs spouting off about listening to financial gurus with Nobel Prizes under their belts. Kofi Annanhad one too and he deemed the war illegal.
Re Afghanistan, I always think it strange that the bully boy John Reid was never taken to task when he spouted of claims that “We hope we will leave Afghanistan without firing a single shot”. Clearly a man who committed troops to something he knew nothing about.
In 1842 we lost a modern Army (that’s army! Something we almost no longer have the fighting force we currently have is under 100 thousand and that’s a militia) to a man to a savage Afghan force. It’s unforntunate the government does not look to history for guidance.

Glad to see we're pulling out of Iraq in the forseeable future. Of course we should never have gone in there in the first place...

As for Afghanistan, its time to get out of there too. It's an unwinable conflict, as the Russians discovered in the 1980's. This particularly situation has to be solved by politics and diplomacy, its the only way....

12. Nerdsunited
The key issue with people in this region is they will do anything for money. Now you could argue that the UN countries involved in Afghanistan are much richer than the Taliban. They could by the Opium off the locals and use what they wanted for medical purposes and destroy the rest, in addition to getting intelligence from locals about Taliban forces without getting their backs up by burning their property. You could also reduce the immense drug crime problems, if we own all the drugs. Just a thought.

fao Fredalo - during the rule of the taliban drug production in afghanistan was very low compared to now, as the they frowned on growing the drug according to their beleifs, where as the goverment backed war lords use opium and hash to increase their own wealth and power which increases the instability of regions all over afghanistan.

of course the taliban were and are a corrupt and hard lined regime which surpesses the people against their will, and the present goverment is also corrupt and the war lords are drug dealers & power mongers. As a foriegn force part of NATO we must continue to build the countries infrustrure and raise living standards to counteract the taliban and try to control the war lords, but this cannot be acheived if we cannot hold back at least hold back the taliban.

38. Port

You are correct, armchair generals are the worst kind of people, I can’t remember who Biographer wrote of Blair that he was gleefully getting excited about getting involved in a proper war. Quite sickening really.
I have served for 17 years now, and that has included some time with a Tory MP who took time out during his sabbatical to mobilise. I do not know of ANY labour MP who has served in the Armed forces, that is why they have treated the forces so frivolously. Including pay equipment and care. They basically tore up the memorandum of understanding.

39. Freecornwall
Nice one! People never realise when it is mentioned that someone is seriously wounded (not something that they do on the news any more as it is so frequent) that is a limb lost or major surgery. Certainly some time in Henley Court when they return.
Where are the MPs to meet the honored dead from Brize when they return? They sent them to war the least they can do is receive them when they return. They are no better then certain Hoteliers in Wales.

we can go to war for years
lets do it
move over soldier
lets kill them all
I'm with you

please ignore the above I was being silly
(war? what is it good for?)

@62 Worz

Yes it was unwinnable for the Russians, but what it did ensure was that the fighting was on Afghan soil not USSR soil.

Most of the Non USSR Eastern block countries were kept communist to provide a buffer zone for the USSR so that in the event of war the initial fighting would not be on home territory.
Its the reason that Russia were so upset about the Americans moving into Georgia, it put them closer to the front line.

All the conflicts that were fought since 1950 were stage managed to avoid one of the super powers getting too close to the other. Better to fight in Korea, Veitnam Afghanistan,anywhere really rather than home soil

Quite a lot of people who deride the campaign in Iraq, complain abot the inaction in Zimbabwe.

HPF:

Very valid point. Unfortunately, the vested interests of the western drug companies/cartels wouldnt tolerate the price of paracetamol dropping through the floor. Pity, because I think it would work.

Afganistan is a totally unwinnable war.

Our soldiers are being picked off one or two and even more at a time by a well equipped and well trained never ending army of fanatics prepared to die for their cause.

It is not so much a war as a never ending insurgency. We have not learned anything from our past experiences in this country or even from the experience of Russia.

If we want to protect our own country then we should bring our soldiers home so they can defend our own borders and stop these drugs criminals and terrorists from getting in or out.

They should bomb out the terrorist training camps wherever they are. After all with spy technology they should be able to track them. Or perhaps this is too easy.

Whatever we should not be getting involved in what could become an even bigger problem if Pakistan gets involved.

Whatever is said other countries are reluctant to put troops into this area and our soldiers will be left in this impossible postion on their own.

Bring them home.

#64 Ben Brighton

Thanks for clarifying the situation.

Just goes to prove one shouldn't believe everything one reads in the press.

72 VSL

The problem with the attempted bombing of Taliban caves is even the bunker busters can't do too much, I have a friend who went to clear a cave network about 4 years ago and although he said he was glad he wasn't in there when the bomb went off. there were was negilgable damage. These guys know what they are doing when they are hiding in caves.

Also when you think caves don't think dark holes with crates all over the place. Think hi tech establishmen with no windows.

Dear Nick

*59,
Sadly i agree with you but there is not any inform ation to back up and to substantiate the fact that they are Quietly forgotten about, The real truth of the matter is they are expendable for "political expediancy" then they are-----
THEY ARE PURPOSELY FORGOTTEN ABOUT BECAUSE THEY AS WOUNDED AND ARE NO LONGER OF USE, "BUT WHY"? CIVILIAN COLATRAL DAMAGE IS A CONSEQUENCE OF WAR, ACCEPTABLE LOSSES.again "why" ?
----Now i do not doubt at all, the reason for war or miltary action, it has to be some times, BUT, the war in Iraq was Illegal, and i salute our forces where ever they are , But Again they are being let down by those that order them about, and those that ask of them the ultimate sacrifice, by failing in the duty of care, in so much they are given second rate tools to do the jiob, and recieve second rate tooling for their efforts, in the way of after care.
There is NO dedicated Medivac Helicopter squadron to evacuate the wounded, they divert operational offensive choppers from their tasking to pick up the injured and that is a major failing in front line operations.
Finally, MPs and senior chiefs of the Armed Forces are the arm chair Generals, not the general Public, these non combatents, sit and pontificate, over gin whilst our "boys" come back in body bags, when did an MP stand at the back of an RAF tRANSPORT AND SALUTE THE FALLEN,?, THAT WHATS SO HYPOCRITICAL, OF OUR ESTABLISHMENT,
White hall is not the front line, but do they care. i think not, it would be Most interesting that to be come an MP you must have done 10 years in the forces on the front line,
"tis but a small request in light of the sacrifice made by those who return in a Box---- AND EVEN MORE PERTIANT FOR THOSE WHO RETURN wounded, for they suffer, at the hands of the MOD who faill them when they need help the most."?
the time has come to have a dedicated medivac miltary rescue helicopter force and a fully staffed medical brigade and hospitals this is wht they deserve and that is what they must get. MPs should get their fingers out of their bums, and demand this for our ARmed Forces.

War had nothing to do with 9/11 - first point.

It was because the FIRST President Bush pulled out of the Gulf War too early he thought in hindsight and so this President George Bush was on a mission to accomplish his father's wishes.

OK but it wasn't supposed to have gone as far as this.

Now, Blair poor innocent, niave - but well intentioned, idealist, quasi socialist (poor of the world etc) - jumped in to assist.

The cost has been and is astronomical - contributing to this "downturn" "global credit crunch" etc etc etc call it what you will.

Cost in lives and human misery is incalculable.

Brown now sees a big vote puller in bringing our boys home - so there you have it.

76 Flame

The cost is more than just lives and money, it is also our reputation in the region.

There was a time when we were looked apon as the voice of reason. Now we have cheapened ourselves.

Having Blair as a UN representative was the last straw, we have no influence in the region any more, worse still no trust.

76. At 11:42am on 18 Dec 2008, flamepatricia wrote:
War had nothing to do with 9/11 - first point.

It was because the FIRST President Bush pulled out of the Gulf War too early he thought in hindsight and so this President George Bush was on a mission to accomplish his father's wishes.
+
not quite right, when the US bombed 10,000 iraqis on the road to basra in a single night, it was deemed excessive and the war was stopped. The US could have gone to Baghdad and captured Sadam, but preferred to leave him there for another day. GWB was continuing his dad's plan

The people who start the wars are never the ones that put their lives on the line and fight them. Speaks volumes, that does.

@76 flamepatricia

"Brown now sees a big vote puller in bringing our boys home"

Yes, but what he's really doing is making our overstretched military resources available for Afghanistan. In any event, our mercenaries will remain in Iraq as will the USA ones.

Blair has made his fortune murdering millions in Iraq and elsewhere for his masters, and Brown has every intention of doing the same.

Nobody believes we are in Afghanistan on some sort of humanitarian mission; we are there for big business/imperialism/oil/opium - the New Great Game.

All in our name of course; our inaction makes us complicit in their crimes.

Get the whole gang out of power and in the dock NOW!

Bit of an anecdote here:

Our friend is a civil engineer. He went with his company to build bridges in Basra but shortly before they completed them the Americans came over and bombed them (for strategic reasons you understand).

The Iraqis had not yet paid for them by the way!

When that was subsided he went over and rebuilt the bridges and yet again they got bombed by the next onslaught!

The Iraqis sat on their rooves laughing, smoking hubble bubble pipes and clapping every time a war plane came over - they cared not from where, it was just a good source of entertainment to them!

Afghanistan was certainly a problem that needed to be tackled. But anyone who thought that the solution to the problem was a military one was seriously deluded.

#3 summed it up very nicely.

80. Hodgeey

You are absolutely right.

By the way he has pulled out of Iraq because the army has told him too!

They want out.

#12 - nerdsunited,
it is precisely the campaign of locating and destroying the poppy fields (which has been going in since the sart of the war)that recruits Afghan farmers to the fight against the "invader" They grow poppy because it's the only thing that pays a decent wage. Instead of painting ourselves as the enemy, why don't we buy the opium off them, thus reducing the production costs of morphine and removing the influence from the warlords, criminal and terrorist groups currently being funded by the proceeds of drug-motived crime committed in the west?

Gordon Brown should be made to set a date for a full inquiry.

Senior military commanders have told Gordon Brown that Britain can achieve "nothing more" in south-east Iraq and 5,500 British troops still deployed there should be withdrawn without any delay.

It is unpalatable to reduce those serving in Afghanistan to numbers but necessary to illustrate the situation.

Getting rid of Bin Laden, as in case Saddam, will not solve the problem. His henchmen will continue. Surround them all with alarmed wire! Then they might cave in.

What if the Government really know where Bin Laden is, but want to choose when to eliminate him?

What if the government keep the War on Terror in the news every so often to keep us all on our toes?

What if the government tell us we are winning the war on terror to build our confidence in them - even though Bin Laden hasn't actually been caught?

We have a government who strained its inherent duty to the armed forces

There is still doubt over the reasons for the invasion

Surely a quick enquiry would clear the air and exonerate if the proof is credible, so I'm unsure why Brown wouldn't want to press for a quick enquiry.

I do, however, feel that if the British people were mislead then the right to avoid prosecution should be lifted from those in power.

I see that MoD Defence Secretary John Hutton is upholding the official verdict of 'gross neligence' on the Mull of Kintyre Chinook pilots, following the disaster on 2nd June 1994.

A memo has surfaced, dated the very same day, from the Rotary Wing Test Squadron ... stating that faults with the engine management system (FADEC) were so serious that ... further Chinook H2 flying shall not be authorised.

We have seen in Afghanistan in recent times that that a Nimrod blew up due to a basic fault.

As far as I can see, the 'military convenant' has been broken by the Government/MoD for some considerable time.

Just a quick reminder about the Russians finding war in Afghanistan unwinnable. Where did the Afghans get their weapons and some training?

As for all this election talk. Here is the problem: Brown will go to the country only if he thinks Cameron is weak. A weak Cameron may not be able to convince the electorate that he is strong enough to be a leader. Can the Tories survive another electoral defeat especially one against such an unpopular PM?

Did I hear it correctly or am I going mad? Returning to the UK, I learned that Brown is going to help finance Pakistan in order to attack and hopefully defeat terrorists. As a matter of interest, how many British expats are living in Pakistan, supported by Pakastani benefits and given housing and medical care, all for free? Surely not as many as there are Pakistanis living on benefits in poor old Britain? This is not meant in any way as a slur on the many hard-working and self reliant Pakistanis who have moved to Britain and contribute to the community. But it still seems an odd stategy even for such a wild card as Gordon Brown.

Shellingout. It certainly seems that way. They keep us in a constant state of worry but talking about the "war on terror" when it cannot be defined and cannot be won.

They are also keeping us busy with recycling (what a farce that is when a vast proportion of it is shipped from here to the far east and buried in the hills), and "global warming" - what a farce that is, seeing as its the coldest winter for years. It's just a shift of weather - bit like a shift of people coming to live and trample all over our beautiful island. Come to think of it that might be causing the rubbish and climate problem in itself!

Unfortunately any posting I have written which mentioned anything about Muslims has been binned by the BBC. This is simply because they, like the puiblic, are absolutely terrified we might hurt their feelings. These are the same people who killed my 2 best friends in the twin towers, the same people who blew up PANAM the same people who are to this day attacking our public transport and airports. Why cannot the government (and the BBC) allow some freedom of opinion (a BRITISH sacrosanct I thought - wrongly) - and let people voice what they see feel and believe.
Fooling around in afghanistan is one more step in the veru wrong direction. The Russians tried and failed. So far the combined service of USA Britain and a few others has also failed. All a war there is doing is breeding more contempt and hate. Just let them sort out their own fueds and look after our own doors and windows to make sure they are secure.

If Gordon Brown wants our troops in Afghanistan for the forseeable future, then the labour defence minister should be stationed out there permanently.
Lets see labour lead from the front and not from the comfort of Westminster.

Can I use this blog to point out that one of the reasons the BBC are giving this hopeless, tyranical, lying government an easy ride at the moment is because on the back of the Gilligan affair, the fraudulent competitions and most recently the Ross & Brand fiasco, they are in effect running scared. They dont want to upset their Political masters to much as their jackets are on a shakey peg. With this in mind try not to be to harsh on the likes of Nick Robinson when he spouts propoganda spoon fed to him by Medlesome. He fears for his job the poor soul !

#95 elrond511

With this in mind try not to be to harsh on the likes of Nick Robinson when he spouts propoganda spoon fed to him by Medlesome. He fears for his job the poor soul !

..........................................

......then Nick should know exactly how the rest of us feel. There are plenty of us out here who have rent/mortgages to pay and are fearing for our jobs too.

He should do his job properly, and by that, I mean imparshally. Until then, I'm afraid my sympathy will be wearing a bit thin.

94 telecasterdave

I'd vote for this. Where do I sign?

Yes ,the point about Afghanistan and dying for very little reason comes to mind because there is no real justification for continuing into making this more of a mess than it allready is.
There is no moral justification for putting ourselves and our country into a situation where we are seen as being the cause for making even more hypocracy ,when maybe in the future we may need the very moral ground that we have lost and even further loosing by remaining when the writing is on the wall and has been since the world knows that the corruption involved in trying to help is being laughed at now .
We are only making those warlords richer and the poor are still bloody poor and even worse we are there.

Has anyone picked up on the recent issue in Iraq's parliament where they are voting to extend the UN right for UK and other troops to be in Iraq.

This technically expires 31st December 2008.

Not something Brown and the spin team seem to have mentioned in their recent announcement that UK troops will be out by 31 July 2009 !

Without an Iraqi parliament extension this could be a lot sooner and nothing to do with a decision by Brown whatsoever !

They said in WW1 our troops were lions led by donkeys.

That is happening once again only this time round the donkeys are sitting at westminster far away from any fighting on around 60k a year all nice and safe with their love ones for Christmas.