Problem for the Tories

For Tweedledum said Tweedledee had spoiled his nice new rattle...

If this is the case-I am at a slight loss as to understand why it is deemed necessary for the government and the opposition for that matter, to do anything at all to stimulate the economy.

If Mr Brown is to sustain credibility, he will want to avoid medium term stop/go and clearly if there is to be any stop--then this will be achieved by the bank then putting interest rates back up again!

But of course!!-I keep forgetting that an election must happen before spring 2010.

on PMQs Brown is now blah, blah-ring about the usefulness of the Post Office. This after this government have been systematically destroying and demolishing a fine old British institute. He also is blabbering about the problems people have with their credit cards. Simple, same solution as what we need to deal with Brown - get rid of them!

Nick

When are you going to follow up on mandleson now that he is admitting to disucssing tariffs with oleg?

I am starting to think that you are trying to ignore it...

Nick

Even Andrew Neil thinks you are too cynical about the tories.

You are right that people won't like what you said -- because you always see the worst in the tories, and the best in labour.

Just a couple of points :

Why do you think that Mervyn King would do anything other than back his boss Gordon ?

Whatever David Cameron says now will be lost in the midst of time when the next election comes around. It will be the deeds that are actually performed by the current government that will be judged. Basically not good news for Gordon then !

I've already commented on the horror of the Baby P case on the previous forum. On PMQs it was raised, and we all saw the coldness of Brown's reactions. This goes beyond politics. I wonder why the bodies who are always so concerned about human rights for terrorists, foreign born murderers and criminals, who cannot be sent home because they would be in danger, don't concern themselves with British children being tortured in their own homes. Should Amnesty International be contacted?

Nick

You have misinterpreted Merv and put your own spin on his wording.

The problem here isnt for the Torys but for Brown and Darling

Merv says it must be short term and paid back in the medium term.
Brown and Darling have said they dont know when they will pay it back and that the borrowing must go on "as long as it takes"

Please Nick blog factually as all your responders here from both sides try to.

BBC political editor Nick Robinson says it was an "extraordinary" PMQs and that people had expected much more debate on the economy. Mr Brown showed a "political tone-deafness" to the mood outside Westminster, he tells Daily Politics.

My goodness is Nick finally getting it.

Sadly no

Nick Robinson asks whether Mr Cameron thought he could not "believe my political luck" with the debate veering away from the economy towards the Baby P issue.

Quick,

Hide the fact that Brown has totally misread the public sentiment of the terrible abuse of a little baby.

And made some very nasty suppositions of the Leader of the Opposition.

Nick, despite widespread theft of Tory policies by Labour; the Tories aren't in power.

Fiscal stimulus by borrowing large amounts of money means one thing and one thing only.

Higher taxes later.

End. Of.

No amount of spinning, no amount of semantic mangling alters that fact.

Reading the Inflation report overview, the government's entire handling of the economy has been deeply suspect since 2005 in allowing the house price bubble to continue unchecked.

The poor banking regulatory system set up by Brown in 1997 only made matter worse.

Finally, having a background in Economics, there is nothing in that quote supplied above that recommends borrowing money to finance tax cuts.

Fiscal stimulus can also be created by reducing how much the dead hand of the State spends and giving it to the far more dynamic and value seeking public at large and private sector.

Herbert Hoover.

I am not too interested in any of the mainstream political parties but it does seem to me that the Tories have lapsed back into a'hapless have'nt-a-clue mode.

Probably the best thing they could do now is simply be quiet and wait patiently for their turn.

Which will surely come within the next 18 months or so.

For a political independent such as myself, that really is quite a depressing thought.

1159 Just a few minutes to go now. BBC political editor Nick Robinson says the PM should have a "spring in his step". Gordon Brown has arrived.


Nick you still havent answered why you think this buffoon should have a spring in his step in light of the unemployment and BoE economic assessment let alone the baby P fiasco

Is it because he has a "political tone-deafness"

Still concerning Baby P, it came to light that the mother was only 17 years old. So now we know why her name was withheld. Isn't it typical that Haringey award a disfunctional teenager social housing, simply because she gave birth? This is in an area, like so many, where it is common practice for teenagers to obtain their own homes by pregnancy. The mother must have been under 16 when she became pregnant, a criminal offence in this country. Why wasn't she taken into care and both she and her baby looked after by responsible agencies? Unfortunately, the reasons are political. Social housing instead of going to young hard-working couples is given to the least deserving. Sink estates administered by officials without any decent ethos, and inevitably causing misery for the very people they are supposed to help.

Never have I felt so ashamed of a British Prime Minister as I did when watching PMQs today. A total inability to respond to a tragic situation in a human way.

My reading of his words (as opposed to Nick's rewording) is that he considers it reasonable to consider short term solutions as long as it is affordable in the medium term.

That sounds more like the Tory's suggestions of tax holidays for firms to me.

All three parties are suggesting ways of pumping more money into the economy at the present time - the only difference is that only one of them doesn't seem to have considered the long term downside to this. Unfortunately, that party is the one that is currently in Government.

'Problem for the Tories' ?

PMQs posed another question Nick.

The Labour Party is led by Gordon Brown who appears to hung up on politics and money. Both important (especially now) but I like to see some humanity in the mix.

If interest rates cuts take up to 18 months to influence the economy we are all 'doomed' until mid 2010 - then everything will go mad and bubble again. Or is the Bank saying we lied about the year to eighteen months business?

If we are all 'doomed' then party political bickering is nothing by rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The party leaders should grow up and work for the people who pay them - the country!

Get money into the hands of the poor as they will spend it quickly. If a way is found to do this that does not frighten the horses then this has a chance of mitigating the depression. But above all it has to be done quickly.

14
Why has this comment been referred to the moderators? Nothing in it is libellous or untrue. It is unpleasant, but so is the case. Please let other bloggers decide if it is wrong to print this.


Still concerning Baby P, it came to light that the mother was only 17 years old. So now we know why her name was withheld. Isn't it typical that Haringey award a disfunctional teenager social housing, simply because she gave birth? This is in an area, like so many, where it is common practice for teenagers to obtain their own homes by pregnancy. The mother must have been under 16 when she became pregnant, a criminal offence in this country. Why wasn't she taken into care and both she and her baby looked after by responsible agencies? Unfortunately, the reasons seem political. Social housing instead of going to young hard-working couples is given to the least deserving. Sink estates administered by officials without any decent ethos, and inevitably causing misery for the very people they are supposed to help.

I have just seen your dreadful excuses for Brown on thr Daily Politics.

Anyone would think Cruddas was the journalist and you the Labour party member.

Sky know Cameron was going to ask about the economy. He couldn't let that go. What was he to do?
On a day when the unemployment figures are huge, when he said 'I will come to that in a minute' it was clear he intended to and had scope.
Your tack was positvely ingenious Labour spin.

Brown couldn't even look Cameron in the eye at the end.

Brown's attitude to Baby P beggars belief. I can only hope that when he reflects on his performance today at PMQs he realises how cold and heartless and out of touch he is. He demeaned his Office.

To Brown the only issue is the global economy - with desperate steps to try and portray himself as a world statesman rather than a failed Chancellor and PM.

I really hope he comes back to the House and apologises for his appaling behaviour.

I'm wondering if the BBC's political commentators and analysts have some form of collective ADHD syndrome? I've just reminded myself of the Tories proposals for dealing with recession in the UK and it is a package of financial measures to be funded by killing off unnecessary public expenditure and redirecting how public money is to be spent.

While it may be reasonable indeed to examine whether this package can be fiscally neutral, the need to examine how realistic the government's own plans to spend, spend, spend its way out of recession is also required.

I see nothing in Mervyn King's words to suggest that it can be only a problem for the Tories without it equally being a problem for the government's own, as yet, unannounced proposals.

Surely there is no room for cynicism from commentators, only careful analysis of what is offered by politicians.

#14 and #19

I would like to know why these have been referred, because nothing within them is libellous nor untrue.
I stated that an unmarried girl of 17 (her age which we know from PMQs) was awarded social housing instead of being put in care together with her baby. Also, that she was under 16 when she became pregnant. Sad facts, but true.

There is a certain regular 'contributor' to this blog who repeatedly praises Gordon Brown for his leadership qualities,and how he will lead society out of the global recession.At the same time,he also likes to tell us that 'The British are not good at leadership or society'.

I would like to hear how he can square this circle in the light of the disgraceful and shameful scenes at PMQ's this afternoon,with our own Prime Minister neither showing leadership or empathy for society over the horrors of the Baby P affair.
It is clear that British society is revolted by what has happened,yet Brown thinks that party politics is being played over the subject.

I for one, am even more ashamed of this man than I ever was before.

Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards to reinvigorate the economy in spite of clear recessionary signals. His has a thankless task and whatever sense he uses is ridiculed out of proportion by the Opposition. Gordon has proven financial skills and unlike his critics will not abandon ship when things get really tough. His critics need to get real and give constructive advice rather than heap scorn on him! Remember Gordon is financially astute and has held the ship together despite the financial tempest!

It is always possible to go to the loan shark for cash to see you through the very short term.

But it's rarely wise.

Likewise, opening the sluice-gates on spending and tax-cuts - which can only be done at the expense of huge problems in future - is a failure to confront today's problems today.

I know this is off topic but the Baby P case is a gruesome example of just what a multitude of sins 'bureaucracy' covers.

I believe we English are very bad at bureaucracy and consequently should try to strip it out of our lives as far as we practically can.

In the case of Baby P, Dr. Theodore Dalrymple points out that the bureaucracy is almost entirely mechanistic in its approach.

It would seem that there is very little room for humanity in our Social Services.

Just make sure you fill in the forms correctly.

This is the price that is being paid for our political apathy and cases such as Baby P. will happen again and again until we English truly have a 'revolution' in our heads.

Today massive unemployment figures are announced so Nick decides to talk about problems for the tories, not unemployment, not mandelson, and not even Gordon throwing our money at whichever part of society he chooses knowing that the poor taxpayer will have to cover it later.

No, he talks about the tories.

Personally, I'm getting sick of paying for this propaganda machine.

Surely the shine must wipe off gordon eventually?

Thanks for the update, Nick. It looks like what Mervyn King said today and what Tom McNulty said yesterday joins up. It's also interesting that governments see the value of getting onto the same page, and a more sensible view of personal debt management has been folded in. I have no problems with any of that. It sounds like a good package.

Brown should apologise to the house for his appalling conduct at PMQ's today - it was truly demeaning to his office, to his party and to those who elected the Government.

And - more now than ever - the BBC should address the atrocious and open bias being demonstrated by their reporters, and in particular Robinson and Peston. The conduct of both reporters has been seriously called into question over recent weeks.

When Robinson produced his apologist act for Gordon Brown on the Daily Politics "no doubt people will complain" he was either being deliberately sensationalist (pretty bad taste, don't you think Nick?) or he was acknowledging in public that he was himself displaying the same petty political bias as Brown.

Which is it to be Nick?

I hope we see as many complaints about this appalling and cynical news treatment as we have about other matters of less National importance on the BBC over the past few weeks.

The best way of giviing me a financial stimulus is to cut Council Tax.

Which could be done by giving the Local Authorities considerably more in this years spending round. Look out for this in the Autumn statement.

Bet they don't do it...

Mervyn King is appointed by Gordon Brown; why is he going to risk hs neck saying anyhting different to the government?

The only person who has spoken out so far is Eddie George the previous governer who reported that he encouraged to cut interest rates at a time he thought htere was a risk of furhter house price inflation...and he was righ. Who made him cut rates? Gordon Brown.

This is the mistake with Bank of England 'independence' - it has never been independent becasue it merely does the bidding of the government.

The whole situation is a farce and needs shaking up and the tories are completely correct to oppose more government spending and try to cut taxes.

Hard decisions have to be taken and spending more money is not a hard decision it's pouring more petrol onto the fire to fan the flames.

Call an election.

I never thought I'd see the day when Cruddas is more honest in his appraisal of the PM than the actual journalist that should be doing that.

The only person that knows David Cameron is David Cameron.

It is a weak journalistic line to second guess someone when there is a story there, played out right in front of you only seconds ago.

Gordon Brown got it utterly, utterly wrong.

"A spring in his step." when thousands of jobs are lost.

"A spring in his step." when the BoE says we are facing a vicious recession next year.

And then Gordon Brown refuses to debate how a local authority can let two young children suffer horrific abuse and refuses the massive public call for an independent inquiry.

Gordon Brown demeaned the office of Prime Minister today.

Where were you Nick?

Or yeah, it's a Tory problem.

Please.

@25

Has anyone else noticed how Pancha only ever arrives after Gordon has gaffed or there is some bad news that needs deflecting
and also how Pancha also manages to pull the reddest of red herrings out of the bag and that what is said is complete unfactual unprovable undefendable hogwash

Good Time George has lost it. He seems distracted and only seems to have any energy when he's attacking Lord Mandelson. As the economy is the most important item on the agenda it seems important that Osborne is moved out and replaced with a more enegetic politician. Perhaps John Redwood would be able to give the Tories a new direction. The main message is Osborne has failed and Cameron must stop dithering and show some leadership.

I can see the value of short term fiscal stimulus to tidy us along for now.

But in the longer term the problems that created the economic crisis, and also meant nobody saw it coming, have to be identified and fixed. Regulation, credit risk analysis, central bank policies etc etc.

Otherwise any action fiscal or otherwise will be a shot in the dark.

If it fails then consumer confidence will be slower to return if consumers can see the "great leaders" never had a clue what they were doing and the banks were worse.

You miss the point totally the Conservatives do not have a problem Labour does, the other countries of the world start from a better debt level than we do that is why they are able to provide proper stimulus to their economies. Your not reporting things properly and this bias will turn round and bite you.
Why on earth would anyone believe anything Melvyn King says hes had everything wrong up to now.

I wish you would investigate Mandelson instead were there is a proper story.

What is more disgusting was your accusation on the Daily Politics that D. Cameron was making political capital out of baby P. Everyone knows that D. Cameron cares passionately about children because of his own disabled child. His compassion towards children is well known. You may notice that the other guests on the show were shocked when you said that even A. Neil who is a seasoned political reporter and a very good one, was shocked. If I were D Cameron I would want an apology from you too. I have never seen D. Cameron so angry or upset this was obviously genuine and you are the only one who couldnt see it, perhaps you have spent too long with G. Brown and have picked up his unfeeling ways.

As a useful independent commentator on political (and economic) affairs, Nick Robinson is a "busted flush".
His enthusiasm for the Government and all it's works render him ill suited for his post. I have never seen such outrageous bias in a BBC broadcast (The Daily Politics) as I have today. The BBC and Nick Robinson should be ashamed of such a blatant lack of impartiality and should now urgently review whether it is necessary to preface any programme or article in which Nick Robinson features or authors with these words:
"There now follows a party political broadcast on behalf of the Labour party"

We all know politicians (and those who comment on them) can be deeply cynical. I think today David Cameron was genuinely furious, and disgusted at Gordon's Brown's inability to relate to what he was saying in regard the Baby P case. It does again bring into play Brown's lack of real empathy with the ordinary electorate. I am reminded again that it was him who really thought it was OK to tax the poorest and give it to the better off ; who believed it was fine to offer OAPs a rise of 75p on their pensions; to cut the money to the armed services making our soldiers less safe. He lacks humanity and that's a serious failure in a Prime Minister.
He did not behave properly today and people will have noticed.

Brown couldn't even look Cameron in the eye at the end.

Brown despises Cameron and everything he represents. To Brown, Cameron represents the top-hatted capitalists of Animal Farm fame. A perpetual world of cream teas and cucumber sandwiches on the patio with Test Match Special in the radio.

He just hates them. And his loathing shows. He doesn't 'get' that much of middle-England, the swing-voters that delivered public-schoolboy Tony Blair three elections in a row, actually aspires to that lifestyle. And, even if they didn't have it themselves, are prepared to move heaven and earth to make sure their kids get a shot at that lifestyle.

Gordon Brown, by contrast, represents the traditional socialist forces of envy. Not for him the soaring middle-class Marx's ideals of opera and fine art for the masses. Hell no, he's pandering to the mind-set that wants everybody to experience the despond of depressed ambition that characterises the traditional Labour heartlands.

Perhaps his rugby accident occurred playing one of the local private schools - Strathallen or Dollar Academy. For sure he was stitched up by that private schoolboy Tony Blair.

Cameron represents everything that a Labour traditionalist like Brown despises. Confidence, charisma, coherence, leadership qualities. He just can't get over the fact that he doesn't have any of these qualities and is resentful of those that do just because, in his twisted mind, 'Just 'cos his parents paid for it. I could have been like that too if my parents had been rich....'

And Brown represents the typical socialist response. Rather than encouraging parents to become rich and offer those opportunities to their own children he seeks to crush the rich and remove the opportunities for the poorer parents to access those opportunities that are available. Hence his parties relentless campaign against grammar schools and their abolition of the assisted places scheme. They want everybody to have an equally crap opportunity of improving their social mobility.

In that respect Cameron is a great Tory asset because with only a slight bit of extra effort he could have Brown spitting incoherent bile at PMQ and show to the world just how close to the edge of reason our PM is. As it is Brown contents himself with spitting incoherent non sequiturs at PMQ.

Like George Bush he (Gordon Brown) is a person I simply have to turn over when he appears on TV. His leering, disingenuous mouthings fill me with the same contempt that I had for the incompetent George Bush.

Official, the PM's a cold fish.

Having himself experienced the death of a child himself, I was mortified at his response to a reasonable question, even more so that the need for justice to this case to laid open. Doesn't he realise how shocked the nation is with the case of Baby P, his actions will add to the anger that we are feeling.

Regardless of economy, I truly hope that the people of the UK see this odious PM out of office. Clearly I'm a Tory supporter, but I'd happily see the Labour party in power for another 5 years IFF this pathetic excuse for a human being is gone....

Today is a sad day for Britian, more so when you concider in Children in Need week, remind us that our children deserve justice, not only from the abusers, but from those employed to do this.

Should NuLab be required to pay a significant part of the licence fee given the BBC is fast becoming its mouthpiece on a stick? Nulab was elected with support from 20% of the electorate. BBC should practice political neutrality or promote opposition views to chime with the majority of its listeners. Less bias please..

Nick, after watching your appalling attempts to act as an apologist for the PM's barely human response to the Baby P case, I really think that you should resign and let Jon Cruddas take over. You got it very badly wrong today.

Oh Dear, the Tories are losing their nerve, Cameron came across as the poor man's grumpy John McCain in the Commons. How dare anybody accuse this pure and radiant person of playing Party Politics? Well for somebody who promised to end Punch ande Judy politics but couldn't resist it when he was doing well I have no sympathy. If you play the game and lose you on't get a prize. Why not try the principled politician approach next week?

Putting to one side the fact that Mr King's comments appear to give the government more of a problem than anyone else (they haven't shown any ability to run the budget "consistent with a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending" since they came to power in 1997), why should we have any regard for the opinions of a man who has consistently misread the signals in the economy?

He has basically admitted today that he got it wrong, but no apology, no explanations and no resignations. Asked directly does he accept that he was wrong, will he apologise, he avoids answering the question. Who does that remind me of?

Why has the BBC only put on it's website the abbreviated version of PMQS not the full version like it normally does straight away.

Is it something to do with the fact that Labour MPs and Brown where absolutely shameful.

Mr King's comments effectively amount to

"Our Plan A won't work. We only have one other Plan, which I call Plan B, or do nothing. In the circumstances, I'd try Plan B"

There is a certain regular 'contributor' to this blog who repeatedly praises Gordon Brown for his leadership qualities,and how he will lead society out of the global recession. At the same time,he also likes to tell us that 'The British are not good at leadership or society'.

I am not too interested in any of the mainstream political parties but it does seem to me that the Tories have lapsed back into a'hapless have'nt-a-clue mode.

When Robinson produced his apologist act for Gordon Brown on the Daily Politics "no doubt people will complain" he was either being deliberately sensationalist (pretty bad taste, don't you think Nick?) or he was acknowledging in public that he was himself displaying the same petty political bias as Brown.

I am sorry but I thought your comments on the Daily Politics were shameful. Brown and you both demonstrated today why neither of you should hold the jobs you do.

#28

Today massive unemployment figures are announced so Nick decides to talk about problems for the tories, not unemployment, not mandelson, and not even Gordon throwing our money at whichever part of society he chooses knowing that the poor taxpayer will have to cover it later.

Well said. As for this baby P stuff. Well, to a certain extent I'm with Gordon Brown on this. I don't know what Cameron was doing bringing this up at PMQ unless it was simply to blind-side Brown and expose him as the cruel, heartless misanthrope we know him to be.

Even so, as the father of a couple of young children I don't suppose Brown is wholly untouched by the unfortunate circumstances of the child's death but he is genuinely less culpable for this than, for example, destroying the UK economy.

I bet secretly Brown couldn't believe his good fortune that he wasn't about to be kicked up and down the HoP with a tirade of unflattering figures on unemployment, repossessions etc etc that are all a direct consequence of Gordon Browns cack-handed approach to the economy.

Again, I didn't watch because whenever Brown opens his lying mouth I want to stick my boot through the TV, but if his mental reaction to Cameron's question was anything other than 'Eh, what the hell is he going there for?' I'll be surprised.

I suppose at least Cameron didn't give him the excuse to reel off a heap of carefully manufactured numbers which, to an observer unfamiliar with the past decade of maladministration and incompetence, would suggest that the UK economy was at the height of it's powers, at levels not seen since Queen Victoria was Empress of India instead of walking naked through the gates of economic hell.

More accurately, we're not walking naked through the gates of economic Hell, we've souped up a muscle car, we've taken a decade-long run-up and are ram-raiding the gates of economic hell.

All this and what angle does the BBC give us? Mervyn King doesn't quite agree with George Osborne. Who cares what Mervyn King thinks? If he had any integrity he'd have not accepted the job after Eddie George cut interest rates to facilitate Blairs re-election in 2005. It became quite evident to anybody who was prepared to listen that the BoE was no more independent than the ONS or the BBC.

From then on it's just vanity to be associated with such a politically controlled conduit of government policy.

If Mervyn King is telling us we're in recession it's only because Gordon told him he could. If Mervyn King cuts interest rates by 1.5% it's only because Gordon told him to. If Mervyn King makes a statement that could be in any small way interpreted as dissing Tory economic policy then, for sure, Gordon Brown approved it.

And if the BBC puts an anti-Tory spin on some sub-paragraph of Mervyn King's on the day that unemployment reaches the same level it was when this government took over (11 years of power, four months of recession and unemployment is worse than when they took over - some record) then you can be sure it's because that's what they were told to print.

#25 Pascha

Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards to reinvigorate the economy in spite of clear recessionary signals. His has a thankless task and whatever sense he uses is ridiculed out of proportion by the Opposition. Gordon has proven financial skills and unlike his critics will not abandon ship when things get really tough. His critics need to get real and give constructive advice rather than heap scorn on him! Remember Gordon is financially astute and has held the ship together despite the financial tempest!

Gordon Brown is bending himself backwards because he doesn't want to lose power or face. The recessionary signals were there in 2005. Plenty of economists predicted this but Mr Brown, as our Chancellor, just chose to sit back and rake in the stamp duty from the housing boom. The thankless task to which you refer, was of his own making and nothing he can say or do will convince me that, as the orchestrator of all this mess, he is the only one who can solve the problem. The ship is breaking up on his watch, and he is at the helm.

The only reason he will not abandon the sinking ship is because he does not want to lose face, or power. I have not, and do not see any evidence of his being financially astute - this man will bring this country to it's knees before he loses the geneal election in 2010.

His critics are getting real. There are more and more of us every day.

Nick,

Rather than focusing again on the Tory proposal (for a responsible approach to tax cuts), should you not be addressing the two riders attached to King's statement that you highlight? If Keynesian policies are adopted, Govt needs to a deliver a clear strategy for paying the money back.

If one were feeling particularly daring, some accountability could be forced for the constant quoting of fake borrowing numbers as a means to justify that we "start from a low base in public debt" (#52, https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/11/two_political_g.html so have appropriate fiscal flexibility.

If I wanted a nodding dog as head of political affairs at the cbeebies, I'd get a free one from the insurance arm of a now part nationalised bank.

45:
Those were my initial thoughts exactly when I first heard his comments. The Governor of The Bank Of England hasn't exactly covered himself in glory as far as the economic position of The UK is concerned.

Brown thinks his status as saviour of the financial world will blind everyone to the problems he helped create. Fine, people can delude themselves as much as they like but frankly when the dust settles, the financial system stabilise then I would hope people might just ask themselves when they put the cross in the box for the UK election 'I wonder if I can trust Gordon Brown?'. My view is that you can't so here is one ex-Labout voter who will be looking for an alternative. And before you say 'its about policies, not individuals' forget it - this will be a personal referendum on Gordon Brown

#44...

Losing their nerve...

Get this...

A small baby is tortured and there is a litany of systematic failures failing to spot it.

There is an enquiry and recommendations to implement.

The local authority agrees to this.

A small baby is tortured and there is a litany of systematic failures failing to spot it.

In the same local authority.

The inquiry is utterly damning of the local authority.

Why no public inquiry? Why should the PM accuse the Leader of the Opposition of making it a party political point?

Who said that James Bulger's murder was a "A hammer-blow against the sleeping conscience of the country."

Did the government accuse the Leader of the Opposition of making a party political point then?

No.

To do so is a disgraceful thing to say; it shows absolute no emotional empathy that in this 'civilised' country such a thing can happen and that good governance has failed to stop this happening and failed to hold those responsible to account.

The same local authority has failed to learn and another innocent life is lost.

Is that acceptable?

No.

Is it acceptable that the media quietly hush it up that their should be action?

No.

Is it acceptable to spin this and keep it from the news?

No.

Clearly the newspapers which reported on Peter Knowles (Controller of BBC Parliament and Editor of Parliamentary Programmes ) suggestion to 'go easy on Gordon Brown', have got it wrong, it wasn't a suggestion, it was a BBC wide edict!

"It looks like the BBC has clicked what the fanbois and armchair politicians in here are about. That pretty much means 99% of what's said is discounted and, actually, can work against you. Talk is cheap. The only thing that matters is delivery."

Too right.

And, if Robinson wasn't either confused or biased, this whole blog article would be about what Labour HAVE delivered:-

- rocketing unemployment
- crippling debt (public and private)
- the worst financial prognosis of the developed world

Mervyn Kings revelations this morning are not a problem for the Tories - at least, not in the same sense as they are for the Government who have got us into this mess and who, for the time being at least, we will have to hope can get us out of it.

Come now Nick you political chaps are losing the plot.Yesterday the best questions to Brown came from an Aussie ,a Frenchwoman and an Icelandic lady (all women) You asked Osborne what politician agreed with him,I suspect if you read the newspapers there are quite a few economists think it may not work.
The fact is some countries can afford bigger stimulus packages that others.We happen to be near the bottom of the pile and our personal debt puts our consumers near the capitulation point and when this happens.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/opinion/31krugman.html
I tried an idea on my Conservative MP and was surprised to find how deep their concern of the public finances is .Remember tax flows reflect historic earnings and the savings reduction will hit tax £1 trillion in personal savings 20% of 2%!
Finally budget deficits, Balance of Trade currency devaluation recession etc I feel we are back in the bad old days .The Nice decade was a once off opportunity decide if it was wasted .

Charles @ 48

"There is a certain regular 'contributor' to this blog who repeatedly praises Gordon Brown for his leadership qualities,and how he will lead society out of the global recession. At the same time,he also likes to tell us that 'The British are not good at leadership or society'.


I've discussed these things in the past and folks weren't interested, so I've moved on from that. If there was less crap and negativity flying around here I might but it's a waste of time at the moment. It kinda proves the point, but there you go."

Perhaps Charles,instead of quoting only the opening paragraph of my post (which was merely the precursor to the main point),you could address the question I put to you ?

Following all the comments in here about your performance on The Daily Politics I felt obliged to watch it. Frankly your comments were a disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Given your supposition that Mr Brown would be in his office after PMQs berating himself for a less than spectacular performance, I trust that you will have the decency to accept that, on reflection, your own comments require an immediate retraction and you will issue an apology to Mr Cameron (a perfectly decent individual even if he is a Tory). Failure to do so will be a straightforward admission that, like Brown, there is no level to which you will not stoop to advance the political agenda of the Labour Party.

Disgraceful. Gordon Brown and Nick Robinson both.

I hope we're all learning to spot the tricks.

"Lessons must be learned" is surely one of the most well-worn political platitudes of all time.

Only somebody who is just going-thru-the-motions would utter such a trite comment about a very serious matter.

I think that the 'lesson-to-be-learned' is so unpalletable to the politicians and other public sector workers who spent their whole working lives in the bureaucracy that they cannot imagine a stripped-down bare bones system that actually functioned properly for our society.

How do these people sleep?

#50 U946....

Gordon had all his answers to DC's questions written down. He is well aware of the questions asked and by whom, well in advance of PMQ's so he can veto any questions he doesn't like the sound of. Blair used to do this too.

I will agree though, that he probably didn't expect DC to keep pushing for an answer about the Director of Haringey Social Services carrying out an investigation which involved members of her own department.

Ref Baby P

Doesnt that just sum up public sector service.

100 million year is spent by that department and not an ounce of contrition from our PM. I bet hed have a totally different take on it if it was a private company that had allowed these children to die like this.

Christ what a country, what a truly shameful government.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Nick -

Your level of "journalism" (if it can be called that) is now beyond farcical, and has become truly pathetic.

Remind me - how do I get a refund of my TV licence? Why should I pay for your obvious pro-Labour propaganda?

The BBC, as an organisation that employs someone such as yourself, is shameful.

Why has the same man been appointed to enquire all over again following the Baby P case?

And why has the BBC not aired the
doubts over his fitness for this position?

All in all it seems the bbc are trying to keep this one out of the news, while spinning the worst economic news for decades as if it was somehow a disaster for the opposition!!!!

Laughable.

Why has the same man been appointed to enquire all over again following the Baby P case?

And why has the BBC not aired the
doubts over his fitness for this position?

All in all it seems the bbc are trying to keep this one out of the news, while spinning the worst economic news for decades as if it was somehow a disaster for the opposition!!!!

Laughable.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Oh dear oh dear the Tories on here are getting their knickers in a twist. All they can see is the next election going down the tubes. The rhetoric of these contributors is getting wilder and more abusive. Why not let the PM get on with running the country because all your bile emanating from yourselves will not alter anything one jot. There will be an election in the next 19 months so wait until then.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Brown: unacceptable conduct at PMQs. If this had been the lead of any public body, pressure would be on them to resign.

Nick: I believe Nick gave a fair and honest assessment, with the possible thinking behind the exchange.

I disagree with him - I don't believe that Cameron had time to work out the political calculations, as he was clearly angry about it. That 'upside' (sorry, for use of that word in this context) was a by-product of geniune anger.

However, I do believe that given the initial backlash, the Tories will NOW use the capital of staying the moral highground to maximum effect.

That is all.

Who has the power to hire and fire the Governor of the Bank of England?

Gordon Brown or David Cameron?

Actually, that is not all.

A new line of economic rhetoric was released by Brown today - that of "3m unemployed under the Tories".

Although this has been used in the past, with unemployment rapidly approaching the rates that Labour inherited, the line that "unemployement is lower that when Labour took over" will be dropped.

So expect the 3m quote to become a central labour message to get over to the electorate.

That might be all.

40. U9461192

Absolutely correct - except for your remarks on George Bush.
Bush, unlike Brown is a human being, even if a flawed one. Aren't we all? The exception is Brown and most of his cabinet. They are machines, directed by an ethos of cold, bureaucracy.

CEH @ 65

"Some people may remember the Stephen King novel and movie adaptation, The Dark Zone, where a politician held a baby in the way of an assassins bullet. Cameron is the sort of unprincipled bully who would do that and he's been caught in the act."

Even for you ,Charles,that comment has stooped below what is remotely acceptable.

Where's your humanitarian Zen philosophy now?

"65. At 2:16pm on 12 Nov 2008, Charles_E_Hardwidge wrote something very distasteful"

We all know that you are blindly loyal to your master Brown but that was a disgraceful comment, you might not agree with his policies but David Cameron comes across as someone who genuinely cares about children.

Personally I usually ignore your comments because I personally feel that they rarely add any value to the debate, if that is the level of comments you came out with then I just wish there was the function to ban your comments out right.

So what is your follow up? Are you going to accuse members of the Shadow Cabinet of hate crimes?

Can anything Merv the swerve says be considered valid now that he and his political masters have allowed the country's economy to go down the proverbial tube ? I'm afraid his credibility as an economist is now in the same pigeonhole as Brown and Darling's. All three of them appear to be out of their depth, constantly referring to the state of the rest of the world as the excuse for the state Britain's economy is in. The present crisis is more to do with their incompetence than the obvious world downturn. Britain's economy boomed for ten years, the benefits of the boom were squandered on social handouts aimed at securing votes and long term power at Westminster, now when the incompetence comes home to roost, it's the rest of the world to blame.

The PMQ's featured two senior politicians shadow-boxing.

Unfortunately, the public is so jaded and, according to the latest polls, has such little confidence in these politicians, that it is virtually impossible to tell if :

a) Camerons rage is genuine or synthetic

b) Brown's relatively calm dispatch of the political argument masks anguish over the fate of Baby P.

As both of these politicians have suffered tramatic events with their own children, it is a damning indictment of conventional politics that does not permit any shred of 'humanity' to shine through this awful event.

Mr Bobinson,

Thank you for providing the King quote in full. You'll see, if you read it again, that King says fiscal policy has a role to play in such times. What King does not say is that borrowing to fund a fiscal policy has a role to play in such times.

I appreciate you are a political bobblehead but even you should realise that fiscal policy doesn't have to mean borrowing more money when you find out you are leveraged up to the eyeballs. Cut waste without cutting taxes and re-direct the spare revenue to where it is needed. That would be a revenue neutral fiscal policy and there is ample scope for it.

A good start would be destroying the race baiting Valleys Race Equality Council. Disgraced former Cabinet minister Ron Davies, aka disgraced former Welsh Assembly member Ron Davies is hawking a leaflet around that says it is offensive to refer to people as British.

He couldn't cut it as an MP. He couldn't cut it as an AM. Why am I still paying this man's wages?(Albeit in a roundabout fashion as VALREC is a Local Authority consultant.)

#65 CEH

Some people may remember the Stephen King novel and movie adaptation, The Dark Zone, where a politician held a baby in the way of an assassins bullet. Cameron is the sort of unprincipled bully who would do that and he's been caught in the act.

The slip during his speech about Thatcherism and this latest burst of mock outrage from Cameron betrays how he thinks and feels. He's a follower and a bully, and people like that rarely lead well. Nobody will say it but his career is finished.

I really can't believe you said that, Charles. Gordon Brown's performance at PMQ's was nothing short of repulsive, and as someone who bangs on about the inner self, I am surprised and shocked to read your post!

I'm not a Lib Dems, but on the Daily Politics I saw Kennedy, and his compassion showed so sincerely, concerning Baby P. He should be given a position in charge of child welfare, I really believe this man has much to offer away from politics. He has his problems, don't we all, yet I believe he is a far better, caring man than our prime minister.

Rifleman Yubraj Rai (A 28 year old Gurkha) was killed in Afghanistan on 4th November but it wasn't mentioned in either last week's PMQs or this week's. Have they given up with even offering lip service to dead service personnel?
I understand that their attentions were elsewhere last week as they crawled over each others backs to suck up to the States' new president elect.
A sickening display from our political 'elite'.

#65

Usually your contributions are just so much drivel and easy to ignore.

That comment is pretty offensive and less easy to ignore. The tragedy of Baby P has become a party political issue because Gordon Brown, and subsequently the BBC, have chosen to make it one, by their highly distasteful decision to question the motives of David Cameron raising a matter of legitimate public concern.

In truth the response is typical of the way in which the government, and its mouthpiece, address any criticism - deflect and avoid. The shameful aspect is that Brown did not distinguish between the day-to-day parliamentary ding-dong, and a matter of enormous public concern wholly unrelated to the political arena.

Nick

What do you get for repeatedly proving your loyalty to Brown?

It must be clear that your days in your current post are numbered - any ideas on what you will be doing next?

@44 - billatbasing

"Oh Dear, the Tories are losing their nerve, Cameron came across as the poor man's grumpy John McCain in the Commons. How dare anybody accuse this pure and radiant person of playing Party Politics? Well for somebody who promised to end Punch ande Judy politics but couldn't resist it when he was doing well I have no sympathy. "

Baby P was a human being!
the failures of those that caused suffering are there for all to see, but so to, are the failings of those that "specialise" and are "trained" to spot and deal with extreme cases of this nature.
60 (yes SIXTY) opportunities to do something about this whilst Baby P was alive, not a single one was taken.
it sickens me that anyone could treat another living being like this.
it disgusts me that only 3 written warnings were issued because of the case!

what were the written warnings given for? have the BBC tried to get a copy of them?
wait, they wont be able to as labour have introduced laws that state civil service action (or inaction) in this case cannot be prosecuted!
every file and information document is confidential.

nevermind the tories are losing their nerve.... im losing my nerve when i hear of yet another tragic death that could have been avoided!
my wife cried last night when the news reports came on reporting on this case.
cameron can attack brown over this all he wants, he has my full support!

"If you play the game and lose you won't get a prize. Why not try the principled politician approach next week?"

play the game and lose you wont get a prize?

try "non competitive sports days"
it would appear the labour party you support have different ideas to your own?

Sorry Nick but you are too generous to Brown and Darling in interpreting Mervyn King's comments.

It seems to me that he has gone out of his way not to be seen to be endorsing any one party's proposals - as is correct in his position. Whilst he has said that increased spending/borrowing may help the position he has added the essential caveat regarding medium term affordability. Bearing this in mind your article could just have easily read 'Trouble for Labour'

This is an area that Labour have avoided answering and given Brown and Darling's history of always borrowing more than they estimated in their Budgets - even in the good times - why are they not being challenged more by you and your colleagues on this?

Been wondering why the rabid right wingers here (jonthan_cook, etc) who resort to personal abuse of other contributors hate the BBC so much.

I can only assume it is because they want the media controlled by multi-millionaires like Rupert Murdoch and they assume (hope) they will ensure a right wing agenda is followed.

Me - I prefer to pay for a publicly accountable balanced BBC.

Bill McFadden

Gordon Brown was rumbled long ago. The Tories are being rumbled now. Brown's made a hash of the economy whilst the Tories looked on, hoping to drift into power on the back of Gordon's disastrous performance.

Now that the political scene is white hot, the Tories are demonstrating that, rather like the other lot, they also haven't the faintest idea how to deal with this crisis.

Just wait until our society encounters the full effects of the end of the era of cheap energy, coupled meantime with the impact of our total lack of energy security (ie the lights going out), and we'll see just how appallingly badly we are being governed these days.

Our political class is failing us.

#65..

What a vile thing to say.

Today has taught me one thing, the Left will say anything to keep their grubby hands on the levers of power.

Aided and abetted by sections of the "narrative-seeking" media.

For "narrative-seeking" read: "Please tell me what to write".

#76 commenting on #65, Hardwidges comment on Cameron holding a baby in front of a bullet.

I'm reminded that Hardwidge also commented on another person being Cameron's prison bitch. I remember this quite clearly since I complained about it at the time.

I'm afraid people become all consumed by this blogging process and spout all manner of obscenities.

At some point the moderators will probably get around to removing the ability of such people to continue to spout such personal abuse by banning their IP address or whatever.

Either that, or wait until the papers get hold of it. I guess that someone will then have to resign.

Nick Robinson is now beyond any pretence of political balance.

It is futile to complain to his masters at the BBC. We must wait for the dismemberment of the institution by the incoming Conservative government, and expect the regulation of the publicly-funded rump that remains by Ofcom.

I never remotely thought that I would welcome the break-up of this once-loved institution. But its behaviour in recent times has made a break-up inevitable.

Well done Robinson, Peston, Montague, Quinn, Mason et al.

Nick, this is another silly headline. Aren’t you being naïve in not expecting the governor of the BoE to agree with the government. Imagine the repercussions in an economic crisis like the one we are in today if the PM and the Governor were thought to be a loggerheads. If he has reservations they should be expressed privately.

Even then his comments were measured. Regarding a fiscal stimulus he said:

“But it still has to be temporary. And it still has to be consistent with a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending. If not, the benefits can be lost in terms of higher long-term interest rates."


I would be interested in his opinion as to whether there existed a medium-term framework which shows a sustainable path for tax and spending. At the moment we seem to have a structural deficit which is not being addressed. You could equally well have said the governor was making a veiled attack on Brown for a lack of a medium term strategy.

#89.

Actually I would wager that actually the media (one organisation especially) and the public at large aren't ready for the medicine required.

Less spending on the public sector, lower personal and indirect taxes.

It is possible to grow tax revenues by lowering taxes and growing the economy.

There will also be a huge borrowing deficit to pay back.

You see, the tired mantra is "Cuts in schools and hospitals" is immediately rattled out.

There are plenty of very good ideas on how to reduce the welfare bill and how to make education and health budgets go further without negatively impacted services.

It's just we have a media that is heavy on the opinion, light on the facts.

However, 'Cuts to schools and hospitals' sticks.. a bit like the accusation of 'racism' used when the Opposition challenged the Government's immigration policy.

There are good and bad politicians but I would say as a public - we get the government we deserve.

"Reasonable" does not mean right or the best option. It merely means that there are reasons to argue on balance for this course of action; and does not preclude the possibility that other options might not be equally reasonable- if not more.

You would hardly expect MK to say anything else. The Government have the right and duty to take the lead in terms of State finance, and MK- like the Civil Service- is obliged to try to make Government Policy work in the overall interest.

If anyone had any doubts about Gordon Brown, today should have cemented them forever.

I refer to his lamentable response to the questions posed by David Cameron about 'Baby P'.

Brown has become no more than an script and autocue reader. He is fine when notes are written for him, and sticks to the script on the dispatch box.

Ask him a question 'off field' and he hasn't a clue. His attitude today was an utter disgrace and if this is a man with compassion, he does a brilliant job of hiding it.

A truly shameful response to one of the most serious matters he will ever be confronted with.

65. Charles_E_Hardwidge

I did not see this comment, and in fact despise the writings of this person. But I defend free speech, even to that of Holocaust deniers. I believe that this comment should have remained, so we could all see what a distorted sense of morality this writer has.
He has many times referred me to moderators, as he has others, but I say NO. Let there be free speech. By his writings the man will be judged. Give him enough rope and he will hang himself.
Wonder how long it will be before he tries to have this referred!

Hi Nick

It's with regret that I have to add my voice to those who consider your comments today on The Daily Politics to be unacceptable - both with regards to the cynicism expressed and the impression of bias they gave.

It's not good enough, but you were expecting comments like this weren't you?

Well, I've just had a very nice email suggesting ways I could protect my estate from inheritance tax.

Right now I suspect other people are taking care of that far more effectively than anything much that I can do.

Nice of them to think about it though.

U @ 40

Cameron represents everything that a Labour traditionalist like Brown despises. Confidence, charisma, coherence, leadership qualities

That's comedy gold.

Are U setting us all up for one of the subtlest spoofs on record?

U playing the long game a la SAG as George Smiley?