Howls of protest

Back to the future is spot on !

Living within our means...

Law and order...

An end to political correctness...

This is the speech Cameron couldn't give until now, as he had to 'decontaminate the brand'.

Now that he has 'changed' the party to accept the environment, social liberalism and economic prudence [no tax cutting without savings], he feels more confident about tickling the Tory party on traditional 'box-ticking' areas..

The 'change' mantra was a bit dull though - I thought for a minute of that David Bowie soundtracked skit from 'Time Trumpet'. Or that he was going to metamorphose into Barack Obama..

He sounded like someone going for election as Head Boy. The speech was very flat and vague. I struggle to remember a specific fact, aside from a cut in corporate taxation.

I agree that associating himself with Mrs T is a good thing for Dave. She was the novice and had the guts, brains and determination to change Britain for the better. Yes, some of her policies weren't right but we needed her and she was in the right place at the right time.

Look at what the previous 2 labour adminstrations had done to the country and how they'd coped with the economic crisis at the time.

We needed a leader with the skills and obstinacy of Mrs T to pull the country around and too make the hard choices that others would have fled from.

Dave needs to be the same kind of man, willing to take unpopular decisions that will improve the country we live in. Now is the time and the man cometh.

Nick,

It only causes a fuss because the BBC and you especially have taken it out of context and are making a huge thing of it.

Once again Labour bias on the BBC.

Not one other commentator I've heard has made such a big thing out of it.

Maybe you should concentrate on the whole speech and wonder why the Tories are ahead in the polls - because we've all had enough of Labour.

I've voted Labour for nearly 30 years but not this time.

How can a Labour Government justify landing students in debt when they promised in their manifest that they would not introduce fees.

Labour used to be for the working class - unfortunately not any more.

I remember Lady Thatcher and think she was brilliant. She was strong and we all knew what she stood for. A true conviction politician, indefatigable who ruled with a passion and a velvet hand in an iron glove!

I think she rated top out of the former prime ministers in the BBC public poll online, with Churchill second.

Surely David Cameron only mentioned her as a precedent not as a blueprint.

Wow! indeed Nick, they are so touchy

The thatcher babbies...inspired by guilt

I think that it will be very interesting watching the aftermath of this speech. There has been an undertone of Thatcherism throughout the vague allusions which have been made about policy up until now, yet there has never been anything which could be summed up in a sound byte for the red tops, so it has been hard to gauge the opinion of the general public on this issue.

Now that Cameron has come out of the closet (so to speak) it will be interesting to see if his vague gestures towards working class families will still endear him to people feeling the pinch, especially when the idea of Thatcherism is identifiable immediately with poor social security.

Cameron has consistently said there are too many people out of work, if he can not convey his mission to change their aspirations effectively, he may well find that they all vote against him.

Nick,

Thatcher is just a Conservative metaphor for "fixing the country after years of Labour failure".

Thatcher is toxic to hard-core Labour voters. (like a stake through the heart - they don't want to be taken down - but we have to get rid of Labour)

Hard core old-style Labour voters have come out in their droves on your blog for a change tonight - but if you notice they are here only to take a pop at Cameron. Almost none of them have anything positive to say about Labour or to support what Labour stands for.

Cameron is the man. Labour is slinking back to its militant past (Militant - we are going backwards to the 1980's in our political imagery tonight aren't we?)

Thatcherism was Britain's flirtation with fascism ... the belief that a political elite are essential for running the country because democracy just throws up idiots who's hearts are in the right place, but dont really know how to manage a nation .... people forget that in 1997, Blair won a massive landslide because Thatcher and her acolytes had left the nation in such a nightmarish mess, that it's difficult now to remember how awful it was ... Cameron wants to go back to those days ... please God, NO !

The Tories have too much yang. One merely needs to sit back and watch the bubble defalte of its own accord. The more they try to defend their position the more they'll pile on yang, so the wise Tories will try and hack Cameron down as the Republicans did with the ludicrous bail out plan. Of course, this will leave them in disarray as all their clever schemes and secret plotting unravels. This is what happens when you mortage your ego at a rate that reality can't afford to underwrite.

Alistair Darling is correct to reflect my earlier sentiment that government must connect with the people, and their calm and patient approach gets behind that. Ideoligical ranting and handwaving to the gallery is just so much rocking of the boat. Better to let go of all that and just coast along, developing from the ground up, making sure everything is joined together, and allowing success to unfold of its own accord.

Be like water, etcetera.

Thatcher is toxic for the same reason that Hillary Clinton is. They have a lot of really committed supporters, but also a lot of people who REALLY don't like them. Winning elections isn't just about increasing your vote, it's about reducing the vote on the other side. Nothing would fire up Labour activists in 2010 like the Tories talking about Maggie.

The more Maggie is mentioned in these tough economic times the more people will realise that there is hope for our future......................the hope that she delivered when this country last face a crisis of this magnitude.

Nick, keep mentioning Maggie............only by followig her policies once more will this country face a brighter future rather than the IMF style cap in hand bankrupcy alternative of Crash Boom and Bust Gordon!

I joined the Young Concervatives when I was 14 in 1978 when this country was, as it is now, on it's knees and it was because there was a "woman with a plan"...........

what a woman.........what a plan!

DC just needs to invoke that same spirit this country needed back then to overcome the difficulties created by Socialism.

So mention Maggie Maggie Maggie..........for her policies and fighting spirit.............for her revolution.............

Thats is what is needed again......except this time it wil be a "man with a plan"! ( the same plan please...........just pull out the Thatcher toolkit and apply resolutely!)

Nick,

Your previous blog title was "Back to the future" - all based on a reference to Margaret Thatcher, taken completely out of context by yourself.

Your expanation is somewhat tangential to say the least - perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you actually meant.

Your credibility is evaporating by the day .....

So now we know, the Old Etonian ex-spin docter is a fully fledged Thatcherite. We all know what happened to her. I think there will be thousands returning to the Labour fold as a result of his lack of judgement. They will be rejoicing throughout the land that his compassionate conservatism was, as many suspected, an elaborate sham

I am not a member of any political party and even as a Scot I recognise the good that Mrs T did for the country esp in respect of the trade unions and I am a former union member.
Nick betrays his political leanings and obviously does not have the open mind that a correspondent should have - he should pack in and join the GB (i.e. Gordon Brown) fan club - a select few.

Nick,

Remember when Gordon Brown invited (Mrs) Thatcher to Downing Street when he was riding high in the polls?

Labour didn't mind (Mrs) Thatcher then did they?!

Oh dear - the wheels are off the Labour wagon and their voters are coming out spitting as the party tries to cling to power.


Come on Derek Draper - and your Blog rebuttal unit...... anything positive to say about Labour at the moment?

The thatcher patch is a dark concept
Cameron and co are Sooo out of touch

No surprise, you cant change the colour of thatcherism....its a wake up call to the whole nation......just say no to the tories, they cant change, never have and never will.

It really just goes to show how stupid our political elite are.

In case it escaped anyone's attention, Thatcher was the one responsible for the demutualisation of our building societies - and look what has happened to them; the complete deregulation of our financial service sector, which paved the way for Brown and thus helped create the mess we are in today; and the total collapse of British manufacturing and resulting reliance on the service industry making us completely vulnerable to economic downturns.

Sadly, none of our political parties has a clue on what to do next, because they are all wedded to the cause - i.e. the free market system.

Labour used to be a party of the left - opposed to the market with an alternative ideology, but that changed with Blair, who turned Labour into another Tory party. Brown is a disaster because he thought he could get the city to play bull with his half-baked social agenda without significant reform. Cameron is a watered down Blairite and Clegg a watered down Cameron.

What a sad state of affairs!

Thatcher, for all her faults, did what needed to be done. She deconstructed the UK economy and sowed the seeds for the period of economic growth that has now come to an end.

To bring the UK out of the debt fuelled recession we now face will take someone as equally determined. I doubt that Cameron has the guts to take it on, but I am sure that Britian cannot afford 4 more years of Labour.

Public borrowing is merely taxes that the government haven't got around to collecting yet. I saw an interesting statistic recently that taking into account PFI and public sector pensions along with the national debt each houshold in Britian now owes £67,000. It's going to take some serious cutbacks to reduce that deficit.

I hope for the sake of the country that we end up with a government that will face the problem head on rather than storing it up for fiture generations by hiding it 'off balance'

Derek Barber shop #9
hmmm, rather to be a thatcher babby (sic) than a gordon goon.

Oh I do love to be beside the seaside.....

WOW, you don't remember the fuss about a month or so then when Alex Salmond praised Thatch saying that "we didn't mind the ecconomic policies much" (i may be paraphrasing but that roughly was what he said.

We need a continuation of Thatcherism like we need another bank to fold.

Is it not about time that Tories stopped leaning on the reputation of Thatcher and learned to stand on their own two feet?

For every one of the party faithful who gets dewy-eyed at the mere mention of her name, there are at least two victims of her vicious, divisive policies who will forever hold her in the utmost contempt.

For Cameron to compare himself to Thatcher is OK in my book. I don't need any more excuses not to vote Tory, either now or while I still have breath in my body.

Wow! The mere mention of Margaret Thatcher really is toxic.

--------------

It's always been that way where I come from!

Come on Derek Draper - and your Blog rebuttal unit...... anything positive to say about Labour at the moment?

It seems to me that certain elements in the media have been taken in by the years of Labour spin, which claimed that "The Tories are more extreme than ever". The number of times Blair used to come out with that mantra - it became very tedious. Labour are allowed to move to the centre ground, but woe betide the Tories if they have the audacity to do the same! Shocking. We must never allow that to happen!

So David Cameron allows himself the luxury of mentioning the name of Margaret Thatcher. And now the media get all excited and think they have some kind of scoop: the Tories are taking us "back to the future"! Oh, come off it, can't you see the point DC was trying to make - comparing Callaghan's experience - leading us to that wonderful "winter of discontent" when Britain was a people's paradise, and working so swimmingly, as we all remember so well - with Mrs T's "novice" status. And disagree with her policies, you have to admit that the country could not have continued with the "Callaghan experience"! Just as it cannot continue with the "Brown experience".

You know, I wonder whether the BBC have now abandoned the whole concept of English comprehension which involves reading words in context. I notice this fad of charting the frequency of words used in speeches - the so-called "word cloud". Who gets paid a fortune to put that together?? For example, Cameron may have used the word "government" 30 times, but it is impossible to draw a conclusion about what he meant simply from the frequency of the use of the word. You have to look at what he was actually saying - IN CONTEXT. Is this now the new methodology of literary analysis? I mean, it completely undermines the English language, since many words can only be defined on the basis of context - e.g. rose = flower / got up? present = gift / now / in attendance / to introduce? and I could go on ad nauseam. Is this the level of education we have descended to in our society? Or perhaps we should be following the advice of the President of the Spelling Society!?!

I notice also that in her sorry evidence-free attempt to rebut David Cameron, Yvette Cooper seems to have a problem with comprehension. She says: "It's no good talking about reining in borrowing, then promising high speed rail links and tax cuts." But hang on... DC said that "…the right thing to do is NOT go ahead with a third runway at Heathrow but INSTEAD build a new high speed rail network…" So DC is saying he would be using existing money. Also he said: "WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN TAX CUTS PAID FOR BY RECKLESS BORROWING". Sorry to have to use upper case letters, but can't people see how absurd and deceitful Labour are?

Mrs Thatcher set free entrepreneurial spirit. But smashed traditional industry by trying to change things too fast.

But she told Britain to forget the past and look to the future. Enough people listened to her to prevent bankruptcy.

Tony Blair told us to get in touch with our feelings.

Which made us guilty to call financial shysters and mafioso hoods unacceptable. But also improved male-female communication and eliminated a lot of prejudices for good.

Mr Cameron is saying: keep the good bits of both Thatcher and Blair. And add on the concept of 'different strokes for different folks'. Diversity, not uniformity.

A couple of years to probe whether this is window dressing or the real McCoy.

But he has caught a popular mood, that's for sure.......

XCAnderson said most of what I'm thinking. New Labour is such a disaster I've been wondering who to vote for. But all its worst messes -- PFI, PPP, low income tax for high earners etc -- are just half-baked Tory policies anyway.

Thanks for reminding me how much worse Thatcher was. Now that the Lib Dems are following the half-baked Tory route too, I give up on the main parties. Time to vote Green.

#20
Skippy, why do you luv the seaside so much

Does the fresh air blew between your flapping ears and cleanse your thatcher guilt

24 CEH

Sorry - I'm being thick......... what are you saying Labour would do differently or at all as a positive agenda?


I personally think it is difficult to understand the Labour agenda. Two reasons:


1. The whole Labour conference was dedicated to inward looking and leadership issues

2. Gordon hasn't spelt out a vision. Hoon recently said there was no vision "just a series of measures"



You also say this:

"Today, the situation is similar because Britain's broken economic fundamentals still haven't been fixed"


Question......... if that is the case what have Labour been doing for 11 years?

To logica_sine_vanitate (#25):

I could not have put it better myself. All your words on the tip of my tongue.

To reporters, including NR: report things in context and treat readers like intelligent beings!

24 chuck
no answer mate, thats just too much gas!
I wouldn't hold a naked flame too close, you might enlighten too much and ZEN what will we do?

Thatcherism... I'm going to tell my grand-children that we went through that for them!

Well Blair continuously praised Thatcher and declared himself to be her natural heir. Brown has feted her and fawned over her in Downing Street.

Strange how I have never seen any criticism of their devotion to thatcher by the dregs of the dying socialist support on these pages.

Thatcher's mistake was being in power too long and losing touch with the people. Blair and Brown never ever had the right policies, but they were in touch for a few months after gaining power. They then cast off their socialist ideals to flirt with their own brand of fascism.

It is some kind of situation when it is the Tories saying that bankers must pay for their own mistakes and it is labour that is setting aside billions of hard earned tax to bail out billionaire bankers.

Labour has not been the party of the common person in the UK since the death of John Smith. Since then, labour have been nothing more than a crude and cruel malignant caricature of the twisted labour view of the old "nasty" tories.

That was a very good speech by Cameron today and even with the flaws that still exist in the tory policy portfolio, a Conservative Government under Cameron would be a masive improvement on the obscenity that is this disastrous, corrupt, incompetent labour maladministration.

#31

Skippy.....blow...blow...blow

#8

...and Labour is just a metaphor for "fixing the country after years of miss management by the Tories".

Thatcher's success. A golden age. It shows what is possible if we let the economic expertise of the Conservative's run our economy, as opposed to the current jokers from the Labour party.

1979

Margaret Thatcher rides to power. "Labour isn't working" as the Conservative Party posters told voters at the time. With a nice picture of a big queue for the dole.

25,136,351 in work = 74% of the working age population

1,404,990 unemployed (looking for work but can't find it) = 5.2% of the working-age population

1983

The Conservative Party's medicine takes effect. Britain "started to work"

23,630,141 in work = 68% of the working-age population

3,023,117 unemployed = 11% of the working-age population

I'm looking forward to the same successful medicine being applied to the economy now.

dorek braider 28
mmmm, nope, syntax is all wrong. but then it might be the huge chip on your shoulder that prevents you from using spell check?
(if your new laptop from oh lordy gordy has such a luxury.)
nope, it's because I know I'm safer here, away from you you think the sea eats the sun at night (well, thats my impression, judging by your juvenile mistrust of embracingf change, which your zengalian monk says us non labour supporters should do)

Unlike David Cameron, Thatcher was NOT inexperienced, having been a Cabinet Minister in charge of Education (remembered for removing free school milk and closing more grammar schools than Labour's Shirley Williams) in Ted Heath's Government in the early 1970s.
Under her as PM, exchange control restrictions were lifted, legislation was passed in 1986 allowing the free for all on the Stock Market (the 'Big Bang'), the demutualisation of the now failing building societies and the implementation of legislation allowing them to borrow money from the money markets far in excess of the traditional source of depositors' funds and which is the primary cause of their downfall. A massive crash on the Stock Market occurred on Black Monday 1987 under Thatcher's watch and then on Black Wednesday in 1992 Cameron was the economic advisor to Norman Lamont when interest rates soared and the pound plummeted.
Has everyone forgotten that the Thatcherist Conservatives' economic policies are very much to blame for the current problems?

I don't understand where are all the questions about the financial mess that is happening. All the questions about the reckless lending by the banks and building societies. The hedge funds short selling or buying companies on massively geared borrowing. How much money has the Tory party had from these companies.How many Tory MP's who where or are supported by the financial industry who didn't want any extra regulation. Is this why David doesn't want to look for reasons now.
Why isn't Nick or the BBC asking these questions?
I have voted Tory since 79 but the financial industry, that seems to own the Tory's, has now done for me once to many times.

35 Boilerplated



Nope - I think you meant to say Labour is a metaphor for "Tax and Spend".

derek b**ker
you might as well whistle down the wind. we shall not be moved. scroungers dole cheats and layabouts, get em sent up north, apparently its a lifestyle choice that I fund through my taxes. NO MORE! If I can pull working a 60 hour week (one for a LA, the other for a respectable retail store) as an amputee, the lazy so an so's can get some work done too! lazy shysters, they think its all over, it will be, come 2010!

Post 36 balhamu.

Thatchers reforms were about the LONG TERM success fo the economy.

So please quote the average employment and unemployment rates for all the 20 years BEFORE Thatcher and for all the 20 years after Thatcher. I think you'll find that more people have been in EMPLOYMENT on average every year in the 20 years after Thatcher than the 20 years before. Job done!

But more that that the Thatcher revolution wasn't about unemployment figures it was about prosperity.

By getting rid of old unionised inductries and encouraging new, exciting, dynamic industries this country was able to craft a new way of earning a BETTER living in a global world market. Consequently we are all far more prosperous than we were in 1979. Job done!

I could go on on and on and on!

#33

re Blair and brown fating Thatcher

...and haven't they both caught the flax for doing so, and then someone suggest that the country give her a state funeral...!

Interesting that he chose at a time of economic uncertainty to mention Thatcher when there was very high unemployment and high poverty. Mind you they do worship the ground she walks on.

Mr Cameron is saying: keep the good bits of both Thatcher and Blair.

36 Balhamu

You cheeky rascal - you forgot to say that "Labour still isn't working"............

At the height of the 1985/6 recession there were about three million people unemployed and a million on sickness benefit. i.e. circa 4 million

By 2007 there were around 900,000 unemployed and 2.8 million on sickness benefit. i.e. circa 3.7 million

That is a lot of billions of Sure-Start pounds spend on getting 300,00 people back to work..........

.........although the number of people claiming single parents benefits has risen from circa 500,000 to about 850,000 i the same period.......

So after 11 years of Labour and an almost unprecedented period of economic growth, the number of economically inactive people in the country is........ wait for it......... drum roll........ THE SAME.

That was the most polished speech, beautifully timed, with excellent humour and just the right amount of emphasis. He obviously thinks he is going to be the next Prime Minister, hence his Thatcher reference.

However, I worry that it was too polished, too well-timed and too rehearsed. It was absolutely brilliant, but I am left worried that, after experiencing a similar well-rehearsed, perfectly-timed talk in his constituency, that he will not venture outside his chosen path (to leadership) and will not listen to problems he does not want to deal with - the plight of frozen British state pensioners abroad for one example. That is a subject which will not bring in the votes. Far too boring.

The 'world cloud' analysis may have some value if you know what you are looking for.

For example, in their respective conference speeches, Brown used the word 'country' 29 times and Cameron used it 25 times.

The word 'Britain' was used by Brown 18 times but Cameron did not mention it even once.

I am not entirely certain what inference, if any, could be drawn from that but I suspect that the absence of the word 'Britain' from Camerons speech accurately reflects the deep ambiguity of the current political situation in the so-called 'United Kingdom'.

Stretching it a bit, one could say that Brown appears to be very keen to keep the UK together, whereas Cameron may not see it as a priority because the Tory support is virtually all centred around England and is more-or-less non-existent in Scotland and Wales.

PS. Don't ask me about NI, something I always suspected, that we (English) taxpayers have been showering the place with money for decades, has been recently confirmed - some £4000 per head per annum at present. Grotesque.

2. cherkoff

Derek Draper Cyborg Infestation Detected





Gosh they are even sat waiting for new posts. 1 got in at no 2.

Shields up

34. derekbarker

Bed time derek... its a school night

#37 skid pad

Embracing change? what change, did you listen too the speech, there was nothing new in that tripe.....same old.....same old....tories

Look, do you have a problem with the fact that there are more jobs.

Do you have a problem that the mean boss can no longer impose a rate of one pound per hour.

Do you have a problem, that year after year school exam results are higher

Do you have a problem that state schools now! produce more and more university students

Do you have a problem that the public sector is working well for Britain

Yes...you do have several problems, plus the fact that your stuck in an age of desperate confused tory trip trap.

What absolute drivel spouted by the Tories, trying to reinvent themselves. Margaret Thatcher may have taken steps like 'modernising' trades unions relations, selling off the family heirlooms like the utilities and the likes, but those times will not be repeated. The Tories have nothing new to offer and will not have any effective measures to improve the current down turn. They will only support the fat cats who created this reliance on debt culture that Britain and the West is now stuck with. Thatcher did not believe in British industry, she preferred a service economy model, and Thatcher also did not believe in 'society'; which is why to some extent we now find ourselves in 'broken Britain' (as described by Cameron). However, Cameron does not have a clue of how to go about fixing it.

"Wow! The mere mention of Margaret Thatcher really is toxic."

And so it should be! After what she did to this country, I despise her. All the "social breakdown" Cameron talked about - Thatcher caused it. Labour have tried there best to fix that. All the "economic breakdown" we have now - Thatcher caused it with her deregulation and uber privatization policies. Labour continued with those policies as well.

Cameron may well support "One Nation Toryism", but this mention of Thatcher, and the fact he has been associated with the "Conservative Way Forward" group, the Thatcherite wing of the party, scares me...

#41

Send them up North?

What happened to the 48 hours work directive.......hope your not putting anybody else in danger now!

If cameron gets his way there wont be any local authority.....think twice...think thrice

Look, if you want to talk about football, then fine, its a good sport....especially when the reds play.

#42

I thought she got elected in 1979 saying 1.4 million unemployed were too many (that's what the dole queue in the "Labour isn't working' poster represented).

It rose to over 3 million.

The Conservatives were working by doubling the size of that dole queue in the picture.

I would agree with you that some of the changes made by Thatcher have helped economic growth in the long-term. I'm no left-wing idealogue.

But I would argue the price paid by the 'shock therapy' in terms of unemployment, poverty, social breakdown, inequality, poor public services and its long-term impacts were too high.

The problems that Labour are dealing with now stem from that. Long-term worklessness and its associated problems that began with the decimation of industry in the 1980s. Deregulation in the 1980s entrenched City interests and have made re-regulation very difficult.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Margaret Thatcher btought a bit of realism to the country but eventually oercooked the recipe. I doubt with hindsight that David Cameron will make the same mistake. One thing ius certain, Most os us do not want a furher dose of Gordon Brown.

#50

Carrot......carrion....catharsis.......right wing nutter.........

Margaret Thatcher likened the British economy to good housekeeping and stated the need to balance the books.

Not a bad thing when you look at the alternative and the financial mess the country is now in.

Thatcher did not believe in British industry, she preferred a service economy model, and Thatcher also did not believe in 'society'; which is why to some extent we now find ourselves in 'broken Britain' (as described by Cameron).

#46

re my comments on the impact of Thatcher - I'm not sure unemployment every got below the levels seen in 1979 throughout her time in office. She was elected on a promise to get people into work.

re 'Labour still isn't working' - that's your view. Not my view. So I don't say it. You can if you want to. It's not cheeky at all. I was making no comment on the current Government anyway.

I won't look up the figures you use and take you at your word. I know from experience I can normally trust the right-wing posters on this site :)

Do you believe that the shock therapy that Thatcher implemented had any negative long-term effects? Or was it all good.

Perhaps on creating the 'culture of worklessness' and many of the social problems we see today (long-term unemployed and sickness, crime, drugs, teenage pregnancy, poverty, single parenthood).

Or are these new problems that have emerged since 1997 and are Labour's fault?

Who's baby is the 'broken society'?

19. maas101
" I saw an interesting statistic recently that taking into account PFI and public sector pensions along with the national debt each houshold in Britian now owes ?67,000."

Heck! I knew it was bad..I just didn't think it was that bad! I have previously said that Brown has stored up debt that our grand-children will have to pay....these figures mean it will probably be their children...

Thatcher is considered 'toxic' yet she won three general elections and was never voted out by the British electorate.

(Amusingly, the same goes for one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair).

Brown has presided economically over the past 11 years of the (self-described) Age of Irresponsibility and never held a general election, yet some believe that he is 'palatable'.

Why not ask the people?

Hmmmm....

Once again a lot of first-time posters supporting the government and/or opposing Brown.

Draper Drones must be enjoying plenty of overtime....

#52 - pressure1: "What absolute drivel spouted by the Tories, trying to reinvent themselves."

Have you ever wondered why Labour had to "reinvent itself" to become "New Labour"? It is because, for all her faults and failings (of which there were many), Mrs T. had actually won the argument. If that was not the case, then why did Labour need to change? The whole "New Labour" project (despite the party's protestations to the contrary) is clear and unequivocal evidence that the Conservatives must have done something right during their 18 years in power - which Labour could not fail to acknowledge. And no amount of insults and contemptuous language can hide this glaring fact.

It is ridiculous and hypocritical to condemn the Tories for wanting to change, while trying to defend "New" Labour. And if you are not defending New Labour, then perhaps you would prefer the older variety with its endless industrial action, 27% inflation, brain drain and rubbish piling up in the streets?

I agree with "Cherkoff". Cameron is out of his depth. It's pity because there are some remarkably dull fish in the tank at the moment. However, who really wants another visitation from the Tories?
Labour did what Labour normally does - the Attlee government withstanding - promises the earth and delivers nothing. I can't help thinking that the Liberal Democrats are missing a trick here. With Brown ailing and Cameron with all the savoir faire of a shop mannequin, surely now is the time for them to offer something. Hope? A third way?

I also agree with what a previous commentator said about Thatcher being a 'conviction politician'. Like her or loathe her, I loathed her, you did know where she stood - it was usually on our fingers.

Cameron's speech was both wide ranging and pertinent. I do not understand why, out of everything (Cameron) discussed, Robinson (NR) is whittering on about the "mention" of Thatcher.

Why and with whom does NR think this will "cause a fuss"? Is he in some state of denial that we are now, economically, all children of Thatcher?

What on earth is his point? Alas, he is beginning to sound like an embittered, past it, fool.

evanevans8 @39,

Assuming you are bone fide poster, check out Guido Fawkes' comment about Hedge fund donors to Nu Labour:

"Paul Myners is a director of the hedge fund manager GLG, which with $25 billion under management is one of europe's biggest hedge fund managers. It was until recently 10% owned by Lehmans. Paul Myners gave money to Gordon Brown's leadership campaign and he also gave money to Gordon Brown's think-tank the Smith Institute. Gordon rewarded him with appointments to the Treasury's pension review.

Derek Tullet has also given huge amounts of money to the Labour Party. Tullet's broking firm specialises in servicing hedge funds who want to go short stocks and derivatives.

Gilad Hayeem of the Lehman Brothers backed $2 billion hedge fund, Marble Bar Asset Management (Cayman), contributed to Hilary Benn's deputy leadership campaign.

There are plenty more "evil speculators" who have backed the Labour Party. Just in case you are wondering why Labour is silent..."

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Same economic situation for an incoming Cameron as Thatcher, but quite probably worse... remember when Thatcher came to power North Sea oil and gas were coming on stream — no such luck this time. In this dire situation, a leader who inspires and energises is a pre-requisite. Brown inspiring? Energising? I don't think so.

I remarked to a friend who knows more than I about, not only economic history but industry and global finance, the other day that it would take at least 10 years to get back to the same economic situation of May 1997. He said "No. I think you mean 1960".

Those who have relied on public money which doesn't exist, those who are irresponsible personally or financially... be afraid, be very afraid. I'm afraid the wolf and the perfect storm have gatecrashed together and the party is very over.

Thatcher was a disaster for this country, in the short term she ticked all the Tory boxes but we are still living with the horrendous results of her marred policies. Her misinterpretation of Adam Smith's theories led to policies such as deregulation of the financial systems (look where that has got us now), the destruction of our energy resources (coalmines), rundown of railways, sales of council houses to those who could not really afford them (toxic debt), decimation of an admirable school meals system leading to cafeteria meals and obesity, poll tax, I could go on and on. Oh we have a a lot to thank her for!

So Tory Boy David panders to the Tory faithful and he has 'A Plan', well so did Baldrick and look where that got Blackadder. God help us.

Surely Nick, Cameron actually compared Gordon Brown to Jim Callaghan not himself to Margaret Thatcher?

The comparison with Thatcher was elsewhere in his speech talking about reform - social rather than economic. The nod towards 'sound finance' was trying to remind the party of eternal Tory truths.

Cameron's speech will be talked about a long time after Brown's speech has been forgotten. Oh, but Brown's speech is already forgotten, isn't it?

#67

Remind me what the current estimate of the UK exposure to toxic debt, all owed by private companies and induviduals?...

The UK's PSB doesn't look so bad after all...!

61 Balhamu

Feel free to look up the figures...

You were a little cheeky in your previous post, one so even handed as you, appeared to only have a pop at the Conservative governments of the past. I was just adding to the picture you painted - cos Mrs Thatcher on her own is ancient history ;-)


Did Mrs Thatcher have some sort of impact on the world today? At the risk of sounding Zen - if a butter fly flaps it's wings......

Of course her policies had an impact. The positive out weigh the negatives though. She turned the country round so that it was economically viable.

The logical order is to fix the economy first and then use the proceeds to improve peoples lives - so Mrs Thatcher started the process of reform.

The economic benefits of that turn around have been available to Blair and Brown to fix the downside of the 'bad medicine' we had to take during Mrs Thatchers time. Unfortunately the Labour government have wasted the economic inheritance.


Lets face it Labour have not fixed these things you have pointed out:

" the 'culture of worklessness' and many of the social problems we see today (long-term unemployed and sickness, crime, drugs, teenage pregnancy, poverty, single parenthood)."


Cameron is coming in and saying that he will now pick up the ball and finish the job - he will deliver where Blair and Brown have failed to follow on from Mrs Thatchers lead.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Nick,

What do you say about the Guardian report on 12 Sep 2008 about Bottler inviting Margaret Thatcher on 13 Sep to discuss 'the current downturn'?

It appears that your 'toxic' lady is actually a financial adviser to Bottler - you kept that very quiet.

#46 - jonathan_cook

"So after 11 years of Labour and an almost unprecedented period of economic growth, the number of economically inactive people in the country is........ wait for it......... drum roll........ THE SAME."

Excellent. And in in the same period, the number of people employed in the public sector has increased by about 3 million. So the workforce in the real economy has shrunk by ............... wait for it ........... drum roll .......... 3 million!

Thank goodness we only have one vote each. Come 2010, or preferably well before, as Gordon Brown gets his gift wrapped red card, where will the rent-a-mob anti Tory brigade be then? Curious how many folk have crawled out from under their stones, having a pop at the Conservative party, doing their utmost to perpetuate a mis-guided campaign against the Thatcher legacy. Desperate folk resort to desperate means. Why not actually listen to David Camerons speech and then leave support of The Labour Party to contributors that compose logical arguments. You too, dererkbarker but try and make some sense mate!!

#72 tcrooks3843

What speech?

#72

Yes, Browns speech probably will be forgotten - probably already has - a lot has happened in the time since (who said a week in politics is a long time, heck a couple of day at the moment feels like a month), Cameron's speech will be remembers for one of two reasons - for either being totally irrelevant considering the abyss the country is falling into OR remembered simply due to the fact that everyone isn't having to concentrate on their bank accounts, jobs and dare I say their investments - crisis over...

The BBC sunk to a new low today when it comes to bias.

Last week there was blanket coverage of the labour conference, fawning over Brown, and no criticism of any sort with their interviews with labour politicians.

This week, they lied and misrepresented everything that was said during the tory conference.

To top it all, now that The Sun newspaper has seemingly switched allegiance from Labour to the tories in tomorrow morning's papers, Newsnight refused to show the morning's papers at the end of their show.

It's obscene. I hope the BBC gets abolished in 2010 and all the license money diverted to Channel 4.

Margaret Thatcher recently wins a poll as "the greatest Tory hero of all time", but Nick says the mere mention of her name "really is toxic".

I expect Gordon Brown wishes he were as toxic!

77# threnodio

The inactivity rate for people of working age was 20.8 per cent for the three months to July 2008, The number of economically inactive people of working age is 7.86 million.

Well I for one would welcome another leader like Lady Thatcher... if only to drive the final nail in the coffin of the unions and destroy them once and for all.

The next Tory government will need to have stong and principled leaders like Lady Thatcher to again clear up the complete mess made by the labour louts, to rebuild the economy, re-introduce civil and social values and bring the public services back upto scratch. And i believe Mr Cameron will show himself to be such a leader.

I think the mere mention of the iron lady is a good thing, and whilst i applaud Mr Cameron's efforts in changing and modernising the party, some of the core values of the Thatcher years are still much needed today.

Well done David... Roll on the next general election

Nick, the "howls of protest" have not just arisen from your wrong footing on the paws of dogmatic thatcherites. Anyone who saw Cameron's speech today (whether they like or dislike it), will understand that you have twisted a one liner on governing competency into the moment Cameron came knocking on the Tory trap door (swing back to core vote strategy). Yes there was a lot of trumpet blowing for daily mail readers, but he got them playing to the other team's tunes! This was the speech where Cameron interwove the views of the Tory party faithful with his modernizing agenda, ie. not him taking a Hague/IDS/Howard lurch to the right.

I am not yet 100% won over due to their position on Europe and it was unfortunate for Dave to use the "man with the plan" line. However you have failed to do the speech justice and your readers a good service by taking the speech out of context. And on the subject of toxic Maggie, the media and the public need to move on (both those who love and hate her), she splits people like marmite on toast not nuclear waste. The former should have decomposed by now; the latter will hold back British Politics for many years due to entrenched views. Brown buys her imagery with cups of tea at chequers and media loves it, Cameron mentions it once in a speech and the media says he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

I say this because; I actually think Cameron is getting a raw deal here. Politics is based on momentum and the media clearly want to sell newspapers and make things interesting by levelling the playing field. This style no substance jibe has done Cameron lasting damage, but if you ignore the 15 sec news sound bite package and read the speeches, it is all there. You should not expect a list of everything 2 years before an election, because the media and other parties will tear it all up...but that is the game everyone plays. Secondly, this pragmatism is more Tory in nature than any ideological distortion Thatcher induced to it, and it’s the right direction. As for the label of "spin", Browns "leak" to the BBC an hour before the papers go to press on Cameron’s speech, that he is to undergo a cabernet reshuffle, says it all.

From a dissatisfied voter on the talk of the town still being the clowns of the political circus that toured a generation ago, only I don't find it that funny any more nick.

#69
Perhaps it got past the moderators due to them already having got wind of her demise and they were too busy putting the bunting out...

If Mrs T was that bad, how come she won three stonking election mandates and didn't actually lose at the polls? OK, she got unpopular towards the end, but where are all the millions of people who consistently voted her in - and you can't tell me it was because the (old) Labour party was so c**p.

Seems to me that it's become unfashionable to admit to being a Maggie fan...

There are many 'toxic' comments on here which should have been moderated. 'Right wing nutter' is one such. I thought insults weren't allowed....but I could be wrong.

In case people haven't noticed we haven't had a Conservative Government since 1997.

That means 11 years of a Labour Government.

If everything that Thatcher did during her time in power was that bad why hasn't Labour reversed it? They've had long enough.

But no they've actually.....

loosened control on the banks even further than Thatcher did AND tried to persuade the rest of Europe to do the same,

we still have the same trade union laws (maybe a few minor adjustments here and there),

we still have hospitals and schools closing even though we are building new ones but some of those new wards lay empty because the NHS can't afford to open them

we still have dirty hospitals,

we still have long waiting lists (but they are massaged)

we still have soaring crime,

our kids leave education with huge debts thanks to LABOUR introducing fees

we have families in debt thanks to the wrong calculation of tax credits. I'm still repaying mine TWO YEARS later.

We are paying double council tax and will soon have bin tax and fly tipping will increase as a result

and...

We have more millionaires now than we ever did and

according to the latest charity reports we have more people in poverty now than when Labour came to power

We also have more bureaucrats and state snoopers than ever with all the red tape that goes with them.

I've been a Labour supporter all my voting life but no more.

Labour is supposed to look after the working class but doesn't. Like all politicians it eventually cozies up to the rich and powerful.

BBC Breakfast 'news'........ is laughable

The man who could be our next Prime Minister sketches out his vision for the world and there is no analysis or reaction on todays 'news' bulletins.

There is not even a round up of all three main party conferences and their relevance to the current economic problems or future for the country.

........ luckily there is time, however, for a bit on hippos and also student initiation ceremonies involving alcohol and carrier bags.


Most BBC news coverage and topical analysis is good - if not excellent. Day in and day out BBC Breakfast 'news' is largely dross.

If you flick between the BBC and GMTV in the morning there is little difference.

Smug idiots like Turnbull making 'Christmas cracker level' jokes.

BBC: Please sack the Breakfast 'news' team and replace them with some journalists.

77 threnodio

Good point - when you add in the explosion of new government posts - the government record is lamentable.

Gordon uses phrases like 'prudence' and 'affordable' - but that is clearly a joke.


QUESTION: If we keep removing people from the economically active portion of the British workforce at the same rate, on what date will the entire tax burden fall on a single electrician called Colin?

Good to see my tax being spent wisely

arquebus@ 88

I don't see much wrong with calling somebody a nutter ... that other bit, though, yes I see your point, that is a little bit insulting.

Tell you what Nick,

If people object to you taking a line of a speech out of its context and highlighting it...

Why don't you start a whole new blog focusing on it even more...

Pathetic and transparent...

Top slicing -- bring it on -- and keep it going until the final, remaining, thin, rotten sliver can be dumped in to the bin of socialist history.

After months of Tory attack dogs and wannabes upsetting the Labour folks in here and driving regular folks away, one measely headline and swimming in molten lava for a while may help them reflect on better standards of discussion. Personally, I'm more interested in seeing better policies and a fairer society over the long-term. Getting sucked into arguing and more of the same bad attitude is a distraction as Peter Mandelson sagely comments.

An interesting parallel between Steve Jobs and Gordon Brown is on the BBC front page today. Apple is making a stand for better quality and affordable music while the forces of yesterday are crying poverty and trying to arm twist them into raising royalties in an expanding market. Gordon Brown's effort to overcome the CBI and their Tory pals digging their heels in over corporate governance and fair wages, and their latest wheeze of trying to stage a Thatcherite coup is just the same game with different players.

I was waiting for Cameron's mask to slip during his speech but didn't expect it would be this easy. The Thatcherite 'tell' is all folks needed to see for the bubble to burst and pigeons come home to roost. The Tory party remains unfit for government. It's going to take at least another parliament for individual members to get a clue, a decade for the party to get a clue, and a generation for their support in the country to get a clue.

The short cut is the long road.

Dear Nick
It is absolutely right that Thatcher is TOXIC, the women was a discrace to Britain, economically this women with the help of her family business and commercial interests, caused more damage to this country than two world wars ever did.She set families against families Commuities against law and order, and had spies in Unions to break them, even one of them became a Governemt minister.
No sir no tears should ever be spent over this women, she is the person who wrecked Britain and turned it into shambles it is now, she was the start of the ROT.
Just look at the family and what it is invovled in

She started the rot??
Absolute drivel , she sorted a financial MESS created by the previous incompetent Labour Government .
Yes , it was a hard medecine to take at the time but it set up a better financial situation for the country, and as usual certain individuals made a mint.
It was Tony Blair that admired her so much , shortly followed by Gordon Brown inviting her to tea and of course sorting out a state funeral on the ladies demise.
we have suffered 11 years of incompetence from this bunch , Mrs T was 18 years ago, so stop blaming her .
Responsibility has moved on, we have an illegal war in Iraq ,costing trillions another in Afghanistan costing trillions , not to mention the cost in human life.
That 'prudent' chancellor backed both and sold OUR gold cheap.

BBC IMPARTIAL??
The BBC would'nt recognise impartiality if it bit it on the backside.
Time to get rid of the licence fee, why should we pay for a Labour Party Political Broadcast every time we watch a news or hit this website?

I cannot understand what led Cameron to start trying to bring Thatcher into 2008 politics, she has her place in history and hopefully that is where she will stay. Will he try it again - not unless he is mad.

95:
Instead of constantly sniping at David Cameron and his shadow cabinet why not put down some policy thoughts of your own that he could consider. After all he will become P.M. in 2010 whether you like it or not. At the same time we could tell you what we think of your ideas. You might be pleasantly surprised.

To those who blame Thatcher for the state of the UK today...

You are effectively saying that a decade of labour governemnt have been completely ineffectual. (I would disagree, as they have clearly been positively harmful).

However, as with all old grudges, why stop with Thatcher? She came to power because of the damage that jim callaghan did.

So why not hark back blame him and his labour supporters?

Heck, why not go back to Heath.. then Wilson...

It is typical for socialists to deny reponsibility for anything they don't like, and their proposed solution is always the same - more socialism...

And socialists don't respond to debate because they are driven by the blind following of the writings of those that they consider their 'betters'.

The solution to socialism is education and self-respect - that is why socialists (whatever they say) do all in their power to withhold these things from and supress these things among the masses.