To the White House

And George Bush is heading off for a long weekend of golf....

I suppose that's the benefits of the special relationship.

Just remember what George said Gordon ...no quid pro quo.

Clearly the worlds big hitters value the opinion of someone who's managed the World's fourth largest economy for the last 11 years.

Worth it just to gaul the purple faced ranters on here!!

PS Can I suggest you take Balhamu with you as he/she clearly understands economics more tham the rest of the bloggers added together

(1)

Apparently, George Bush forgot to check his diary.

George realised that he had the choice of seeing Gordo or playing golf and had to make an easy (oops, I nearly wrote "difficult" but that would have been really inappropriate!) choice - the golf won out!

Hmmm!

I guess is is important politically for Brown to get this meeting - to show the folks back home that he is a big hitter.

A much less important meeting for Bush though.

Bush will want something in return for granting GB his wish...

I bet this will end up costing me money!

This is just a PR stunt. Pathetic.
Gordon Brown has nothing to offer on this.
He is just hoping that we will think he is doing something. He flew over to the States without an invitation to the White House and, like some pushy gatecrasher, has elbowed himself in.
When he comes out and answers questions, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK HIM WHAT HE HAS ACTUALLY ACHIEVED AND DO NOT LET HIM JUST WAFFLE ON.

I bet there is a gnashing of teeth in George Osborne's office after his pathetic comment this morning that GB had been snubbed. What with this prestigious invite and the 10 point drop in the polls, the Tories are definitely on the back foot. George's negative comments about the bailout will not have gone down well in Washington either. I can see why Gordon made his comment about novices. George is still in primary school where managing the UK economy is concerned. His contribution on the way forward has been zilch.

Please George, please can I join the party, please, please, please...

I didn't mean the things i said about wanting Barrack to win - honest.

Embarrasing excuse for a PM

@8, brown was a novice in '97 and if you believe his press he inherited a worse state of affairs than it is now so surely a fresh set of eye is needed to sort this mess out

maybe brown will call the election now if things are looking up for labour hes set out his vision

What concerns me is that Brown might be there to discuss the New World Order conspiracy - look it up on Google. It's sooooo scary. That would explain global financial emergency and giving money for malaria and a whole lot more.

oooohhh,

George Bush is going to see me. What a great photo opportunity for the smiling PM. Exactly who or what does he represent, because apparently the situation is nothing like that in America, the American situation is different, no really, this is important, team GB, which, by the way, came fourth in the Olympic medal table, is in nothing like the financial turmoil which America now has.

No, you must understand that our banks are sound and we will deal with this in our own way, our own way not being in any way connected to how America solves its problems, so why is he sticking his jaw into other peoples affairs, if they don't effect what happens for team GB.

I suppose that some may say I am being flippant or that I show no respect to our PM, well this despot deserves no respect, he lacks credibility, and he has given up any dignity with his pleading for his job at the labour party conference.

Anyway, what you didn't see was that when Gordon met the athletes, without any members of the general public being allowed near, he took all the gold medals from the athletes to replenish our own gold reserves, most of which have been sold off, by Gordon.

This is a joke, and where is Sarah, back home with the kids. Talking of Sarah, where is Harry again, hope that there has not been another media cover-up, and William, I thought that he was going to do time in the SAS, hope he signed the confidentiality contract.

Gordo has already verbally backed Paulson's plan but the Yanks want 20 billion out of him to prop it up. An invite and a bit of shmooze and we the taxpayer will probably end up owning 20 billion of American toxic debt.

All the while the plan has been soundly fisked by the FT and others as a really, really bad idea - right up Gordon's street then.

Gordon "Micawber" Brown's by-hand message for George "I'll get Osama" Bush:

"Annual taxed income twenty pounds, annual government expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual taxed income twenty pounds, annual government expenditure twenty pounds ought and six on supporting the US Bailout, result misery."

Hold him properly to account on his return - I am sick of interviewers letting Brown get away with his usual blather - ask him serious questions and repeat them until he has to answer.

Good old George Bush. Able to make a fifteen minute window in his diary for one of the men who legitimised his war in Iraq.

Phew, knew he'd return the favour some day. Bit of grandstanding, photo with the president, Cameron reminded he's not PM yet.

This is going to cost us money isn't it?

What was wrong with picking up the phone eh? Too easy for Bush to bat him away? Had to camp on the White House Lawn until Bush was embarrassed into seeing him.

Probably had to have Tony Blair put in a good word for him.

It really is very embarrassing isn't it? The 'leader' of our nation having to sit on the tarmac until the President of the US is embarrassed into seeing him a full day after he arrives unannounced.

Anyway, no matter what happens a recession is nailed on. The entire global banking system may not collapse but the general public have surely woken up to the idea that perhaps borrowing all that money off the back of the inflated value of your house ain't quite such a whizzer idea after all.

Now we just have to hope Gordon got the message too. Somehow though I doubt that.

Hold him properly to account on his return

Not possible. He is a master of simply not answering the question. There is no question unambiguous enough that he can't simply bat away with a 'What's really important here...blah...blah' or 'What you must remember blah...blah'.

The best thing the BBC and other news media can do is simply deny him the oxygen of publicity. Refuse to be 'used' by Gordon Brown as an outlet for his vanity and dissembling. Just don't even bother to interview him. Don't report on him. Give him what he gives you. Nothing.

@10, I don't think having a phd and lecturer at Edinburgh University really qualifies as being a novice. Interesting comment from somewhere in the BBC:

"Brown was first elected to the Commons in 1983, and was tipped from the start to go far in politics; he is a skilled economist and an extremely accomplished public speaker. "
(src: https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2070402.stm%29

And crowdedisland, I tend to think Brown answers questions rather well, but if someone would just stop that Cameron getting away with his usual blather, well...

Here we go again....$700+ billion dollars to bail out the 'rich' and nothing for the 'less rich.' Apparently about 1/10 of that amount would alleviate poverty in Africa.....but, hey, who really cares?

Presumably Gordon Brown has agreed to change the script from the one where all the economic problems of the world originated in the US to one where George Bush is a hero.

How was the journey over Nick? Was the plane crowded?

@TAG, the whole reason for the UK credit crunch is the UK banks exposure to the US sub prime mortgage market and our banks reluctance to come clean about the extent of their exposure, hence the lack of trust between institutions and resulting drying up of the wholesale money market. Which means GB's meeting with Bush is vital to our national interest.
Also its worth noting that the tories proposed solution to Northern Rock was to let it go bust the resulting crisis in our financial industry would have been disastrous

A meeting of two master-minds, then?

Gordon, just think of all those photo-oppurtnities you'll have shaking the hand of the head of the federal reserve. Maybe if you beg hard enough you can stay a whole month and steal the thunder from the troy conference.

They will probably ask for some financial help in covering the toxic debt, so why not dip into the "Gordon Brown popularity fund" and pull out a few billion to placate them? You know, the same fund you pulled £2.7 billion out of to lose an election recently. After all, it's not like we're all swimming in debt due to your profligate policies is it? Let the tories start paying it off in 2 years time.

Oh, and Gordon, try to to offend your hosts by starting each sentence with "The credit crunch that started in America ..." like you've been doing for the last 6 months.

"Brown was first elected to the Commons in 1983, and was tipped from the start to go far in politics; he is a skilled economist and an extremely accomplished public speaker. "

Bwahahahahaha.

Did his mum write that. A skilled economist? 'No more boom and bust' Brown. The man who presided over the biggest boom in UK house price history. The man who increased national debt by more than any other chancellor in history. In fact the man who will shortly have increased the national debt by more than all the chancellors in history added together.

A skilled economist? Lucky he wasn't a rubbish economist eh?

An accomplished public speaker?

Bwahahahahaha.

Evasive, avoiding eye-contact. Accomplished at reading out a load of moonshine without dying of embarrassment like any normal person would. Maybe.

Accomplished at avoiding answering the simplest of straight questions? A master.

Accomplished public speaker in the sense that you believe a word he says? I don't think so.

He wrote that entry himself didn't he?

SKilled economist? Still laughing at that one.

Oh, and Gordon, don't forget to make the most of your little trip during "Prime minister doesn't answer questions time"

Mr Robinson - I think you needed to explain just WHY you think that Mr Brown wished to go to the White House. Do you have any evidence to support your claim or are you just trying to maintain momentum with your personal and very unpolitically biased campaign against Mr Brown and the part he represents?

@18

He has a PhD in History not economics so I guess that makes him a novice. Also his bio lists his early career as a T.V. journalist not a lecturer.

I guess that your impression of facts and his are roughly equivalent. It's a shame they are out of step with the truth.

Nice of Bush to grant Brown an audience.

I hope he asks Brown to kiss his ring.

I read an article of how instead of calling us Bush is calling Merkel and Sarkozy for advice and then finally he might pick the phone up to Gordon. What influence we had with Blair has been destroyed. This Rose Garden press conference will be the last for both leaders I'm sure.

fknose @19 wrote:

"Here we go again....$700+ billion dollars to bail out the 'rich' and nothing for the 'less rich.' Apparently about 1/10 of that amount would alleviate poverty in Africa.....but, hey, who really cares?"

I certainly don't!

The West has poured billions of dollars into Africa - most of it has ended up in the hands of Swiss bankers, arms salesmen, Mercedes-Benz dealerships and expensive 'ladies of the night'.

Let them sort their own problems out.

I have to correct myself Gordon was employed as a lecturer in Politics at Glasgow College of Technology from 1976 to 1980.

However I still question his econimic credentials.

At 6:06pm on 25 Sep 2008, U9461192 wrote:

Hold him properly to account on his return

Not possible. He is a master of simply not answering the question. There is no question unambiguous enough that he can't simply bat away with a 'What's really important here...blah...blah' or 'What you must remember blah...blah'.


It is possible if the interviewer has the bottle to keep on asking the same question...time and time again until he/she gets an answer.
It's no different to interviewing a prisoner in police custody...without the caution of course.
Problem is there are no interviewers with the backbone to stand up to the arch dissembler.

AdamSmith57 @ 20

Probably not where Nick was sitting in Economy!

Everyone else was in First Class or Business Class!

It was even more crowded in the Cockpit - Gordon is still in charge, despite the disastrous few weeks he's been having, so was up front giving the pilot instructions on how to fly the plane!

Blimey the usual mob are frothing over this.
President meets with British Prime Minister in time of financial crisis!
Bush must be doing it because he feels sorry for Brown or owes him a favour.
For goodness sake Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so.
Brown is an active leader in times of crisis. Britain punches massively above its weight with Brown at the helm. This was the case with OPEC and the Saudis and it is the same here.
The looney Tories on here can't stand it but it is a fact.
Re post #8 and George Osbourne - the man is comedy hero. Cameron must be desperate to offload him now. Let's see if DC can show some leadership when the shadow is cabinet next reshuffled.

GB has been talking about this type situation for years, there is nobody more ready than GB, to help the world recover from this crisis.

Can people stop trying to score cheap political point and get behind the PM.

It is in all of our interests that the world does recover from the down-turn.

EwanNic

"I don't think having a phd and lecturer at Edinburgh University really qualifies as being a novice."

Please check around all the better universities and discover how many people have PHds. Ditto with many PLCs.

Then consider whether having an intellectual qualification makes you "right" to take the top job in an organisation.

If that's the criterion, there are thousands of people who could run any part of private or public business.

Some are great. Some deliver disastrous outcomes.

Everyone who takes over the Premiership is a novice. That's just a fact of life.

Doesn't mean that you are necessarily the best - just the person who's there.

But the electorate is allowed to expect that, whoever is in that role exercises common sense.

Brown seems affronted by the realisation that his stupid decision to withdraw the 10p tax rate offended people of every party. He could have solved the problem very easily. But his pride didn't allow him to work it through.

NOT the sign of a good leader.

Plenty of complaints on here about Brown/Cameron et al not answering questions.

After being in the political game for a while, these politicians develop a vast toolkit of standard anodyne answers to virtually every conceivable question that could be thrown at them.

It is highly frustrating for us, the public to listen to this but they are doggedly determined not to be lead into any elephant traps.

On the rare occasions when it does happen, their anguish is all too plain to see, as happened an unfortunate woman Minister one time on Newsnight, when she was completely slaughtered by Paxman and soon after stepped down.

But that could be a co-incidence.

I have concluded that the trade-offs required to play the political game probably means that being economical with the actualite/giving effectively 'non-answers' is an unfortunate necessity much of the time as part and parcel of the compromises needed in a democracy.

@18, no practical experience = novice

next

It's fortunate Palin didn't have Gordon in her sights as a great brown moose.

When living in Cheltenham many eons ago, I heard a guy say that his life-long dream was to go to Stringfellas in London... and I thought, (apart from the obvious) 'don't you have more important things to be getting on with?'

Finally 'in the White House'? Oh, maybe this was the excuse for the Sarahs to talk trans-altlantic lipstick?

Meanwhile... a certain UK Bank / Building Society (?) lays off 370 workers... and a UK man is delivering his wife's baby in hospital cos there's no mid-wife available... etc etc

redonthebed

The Tory response to the Northern Rock problem was to place the company under adminsitration. That does NOT mean allowing it to go bankrupt...

It's a bit like Chapter 11 protection in the USA.

Personally, I'd have allowed NR to fail. They had a stupid business model. (Borrow very short, lend really long, against very doubtful income to loan values.) The FSA - Brown's creation - was aware of that. But, it seemed that NR was based a long way from London, and in a Labour heartland, so they didn't have the balls to go and force them to straighten out.

I've always wondered whether a Chelsea based NR-equivalent would have been thrown a GBP50Billion lifeline.

I have a lot of personal empathy with Brown. I understand he was a promising junior rugby player. Very sad that he lost an eye. Very good that he managed to get excellent health treatment.

Very bad that he doesn't seem in the least perturbed by the fact that, in a real world life, it's possible to achieve more than the simple outpouring of money would suggest.

That's to say that, just because you spray money around, it doesn't mean you will achieve more than if you'd encourgared people to do better. (That can well mean paying more, spend on training, etc.)

Brown allowed GPs to be paid a heck of a lot more than they expected, with an option to deliver less time coverage. Then claims to have created a great breakthrough by claiming to extend hours of access by paying them more.

The man's a fool.

Don't challenge his intelligence. We've all met them. Bright - think they're right - but functionally incompetent.

Just his reality factor is based on the assumption that what we pay for through taxes - over which we have no control - is the same as trying to deliver something that a "real-market" economy depends on.

I'd love to see the whole cabinet get back into the "real world" and assess their "worth" when trying to make money from people's disposable income.

My guess is that most of them wouldn't really understand their environment. But we pay for their mortgages!

I quite fancy a job where I could expect some other poor sucker to buy the most important asset I'm likely to own. And pay for my pension...

This world does not need Bush turning this crisis into another global fear factor.

The speech Bush put out today will only incite all those places he has ear-marked as rogue-states.

I say this friends, these are very testing times, for world peace, the last thing we need is the Bush admin, using the crisis to prop up their political stance.

Capitalism has failed and America must adjust their regulation on banking and business operations.

Bush must accept that and not try to duck responsibility of this down-turn.

The world needs a calm hand to steer us through this crisis, lets hope that Bush, doesn't blank GB out.

mrshamilton @26 wrote:
".... are you just trying to maintain momentum with your personal and very unpolitically biased campaign against Mr Brown and the part he represents?"

The part he represents is best described in a word unadmissible on this blog.

One of two things happened.

Either Bush shouted at somebody for not telling him that the inestimable Mr. Brown was in the States and to invite him over immediately

- or -

Brown pleaded that Bush give him a few minutes otherwise he will be a laughing stock when he gets back home.

Any bets?

#35 - derekbarker

I agree. Everyone should get behind the Prime Minister - just like they did with Julius Caesar.

Did GB Fly First Class ?

peteHolly

"For goodness sake Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so.
Brown is an active leader in times of crisis. Britain punches massively above its weight with Brown at the helm. This was the case with OPEC and the Saudis and it is the same here."

I always want the UK to "punch above its weight".

I see no impact from a Brown initiative with OPEC. Never understood why the price of oil soared - except that hedge funds and investors with too much cash sloshing around decided that oil should be targeted.

Price rise was totally illogical. Decline is normal. Brown's impact? Not sure he has a lot of economic clout to bring to bear. After all, we can't even afford to pay for our very local islands at reasonable prices, without borrowing to pay for on-going costs of doing business...

The Americans value him, because he funds a part of wars we don't all agree with.

Using underpaid, under-protected, under-valued military personnel.

He punches above his weight. Inside the Labour Party.

Would you really like him to be your boss in a private company? Where it was either "spend more or we'll have to lose lots of jobs", or "hey guys, we could do an awful lot more if we got smarter about what we do and how we do it"?

Why do the dead-heads on this site assume that it takes more money to achieve a little bit more?

It needs smarts. Thinking a little bit more about what is really needed, who could do what, when it's required, etc. That's what PLCs do every day.

That's what the best parts of the NHS try to achieve.

Brown and Blair put in place all sorts of consutancy-inspired measurement factors. Mostly just bulls**t.

Government is poorly equipped to manage anything. There is simply not the experience to adopt that role.

Necessary evil. But to be held at arm's length.

As First Lord of the Treasury (officially and unofficially) Gordon Brown's fingerprints are all over the scene of this financial crime.

He has had 11 years to do nothing whatsoever about the excesses of the market perpertrated by the lack of proper regulation.

Therefore he has failed in his role not only in this regard but in the way he has splashed the cash around virtually bankrupting the country IMF style!

So it is preposterous that through his photo opportunity with Pres Bush he sill try to "con" the British Electorate into thinking he is our saviour in some way.

The British Electorate will have news for him. We've seen through his ineptitude and prolifigacy and we now recognise New Labour for the "con-trick" that it has become!

Sound money and reward for hard work are on their way after the next election!

Menedemus@33

You paint a detailed picture with our "leaders" at one end of the plane and our "blogger" at the other. I wonder which airline they chose. Difficult choice with all the politics and involved. And how many were in the entourage? That's important in these days when we are all conscious of our carbon footprint - especially when the main purpose of the visit is to talk about global poverty.
I'm sure all the details - airline, numbers, cost - will come out in due course.
Perhaps our blogger will give us a clue.

Yo Brown whats happenen.

Er Hello Mr President good to see…… ya all

Whats that Brown?

Err….. Nice to see you Mr President

Oh yeah...good to see you to Brown… whats up?

Err Errr… Mr President I would like to talk about the credit crunch.

God I love credit crunch, its so crunchy, cant start the day without some.

Errrr no Mr President err I mean the GLOBAL economic crisis.

Oh that, yeah, OK Brown, was that the thing I was talking about on the TV last night?

Errrrr yes MR President

You got any money Brown, its gona take a whole lota government money to sort that out. Aint that right Hank? …… Hank sniggers.

Err well yes Mr President, yes it is.
So whata ya got then, how many billion?
Were chucking in 700 billion for openers.

Whats your team got Brown.

Well Err no Mr President, were a bit strapped right now, been sending a lot of money home you see.

Whats that Brown?

Errr… were a bit broke, just wanted to talk about it really.

Christ Brown, its Bucks we need not talk, we got all the talk we need.

Errr Mr President I just thought yewd like my advice, Im very good at economics.

Gee Brown its Bucks we need isn’t it Hank…. Hank nods furiously.

Mmm yes quite right Mr President, Bucks mmmm where can we get Bucks.

Well weve got some Brown, cos we dont waste ours bucks on bloody quangos and equality and diversity officers.



Bush starts to shuffle back to his play station.

Silence and tumble weed, as Brown figures out how to make the meeting last 15 minutes.

Bush and Brown play Gun Fight on the Grassy Knoll II. Hank makes a call.

Agents drag Brown and sofa out of the office after 20 minutes.



Following morning:

Downing Street (now back in their bunker) issue statement:

The PM and The President have had a very constructive meeting, have devised a rescue plan and will be working closely together to save the planet.

See its the usual anti-brown rubbish on here, as ever. I think that you will find that Brown is very well thought of on the international stage and after delivering record braking numbers of quarters of growth, rightly so. And lets be fair, this crisis was made in the USA by greddy bankers and not by Browns policies (though the FSA could have did a bit more on the regulation front admittedly). Anyone know how DC would have handled Lloyds HBOS and the current market conditions...??

I suppose this is what is called 'gesture politics'.

I don't see that it does any harm and may help to calm things down a bit on the financial markets if it is perceived that these politicians are attempting co-ordinate a recovery package.

These financial stability issues are a complex matter and whatever the rights and wrongs of how we got to this point, from now on there is going to have to be more appropriate/'better' regulation of these markets, where it is sensible to regulate.

However, I don't see why some parts of a market can't be totally unregulated, as long as people 'investing' in those areas fully understand that they could lose their shirt.

Cross-contamination of assets must be forbidden in the future i.e. sub-prime assets mixed with the 'good stuff' cannot happen again ... the rocket science that said it would work was plainly wrong.

It will all get sorted out one way or another.

What has to be realised is that a similar situation happened in America in 1921, what did they do, let it go, just go bust.

In 1928 what happened, they did everything to maintain prices, what happened, the Great Depression. Let them go bust, that's what you do. Just let them go, short term pain, you gain in the long run. You really do.

When our Gordon refers to boom and bust everybody keeps thinking ten years, no try eighty, it could even be a hundred but the longer the time the worse the bust, they keep thinking that they can avoid the invisible hand, sorry guys, it works. Go bust, please.

What is the point of Brown going to visit Bush!
They are both on their way out.
The memories that they started two wars and overseeing the economy go down the drain is the only thing they have in common.
We will all need a shovel to clean up the s... thats left.
Of course Bush hasn't tried to give the country to the EU, Yet.

#45

Stop listening to all the trip-trap nonsense being fed by ill- fated pension losers.

It is of vital impotance that the USA gets its head around this crisis.

It is as simple as this....there is no-one in the UK parliament more able to shed some experience on this global down-turn than GB.

Drawing daggers wont help anybody get through this crisis

Maybe Gordon Brown can give advise George Bush - that the best way to deal with a dying economy during a period of rampant inflation and increased utility prices- is to calm the public.............


.......... with a population of 305m in the US - that is a lot of lagging Bush is going to be paying for.

#53

This is not 1928, this is a world on the brink, many nation including those rogue nation that the Bush admin refer to, rely on America.


If America goes bust and introverts on her-self, then this world will be closer to that cuban missle crisis than ever before.

MEDIA:

I agree with the calls above........... hold Gordon to account.

DO NOT LET HIM WAFFLE. MAKE HIM ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 48

"He has had 11 years to do nothing whatsoever about the excesses of the market perpertrated by the lack of proper regulation."

Not quite true. He went way beyond benign neglect. He actively promoted city greed and reduced regulation so no-one knew what was going on.

He actually promised in a speech to the CBI in 2005:

"not just a light touch but a limited touch."

This reduction in regulation and supervision is part of the reason we are where we are now, and certainly a big element of the reason why the fiasco at Northern Rock was not spotted sooner.

No one really cares. Brown is a hopeless cause. He hopes to get some reflected glory.

It would have been rather entertaining for him to have been snubbed (again) - but for him to be invited is really a non-event.

I just hope he left the big cheque book marked "taxpayers (today and future) account" at home.

All we can hope is he doesn't run up too many more debts for us and our kids to pay off before the next election.

The political (and journalistic) classes are insulated from the worst of it (and can protect their families/children from it) - for us in the real world we have worked hard to save, and now are going to finance Browns spending instead of our own.

51. , Dontletthetoriesin:
"See its the usual anti-brown rubbish on here, as ever. I think that you will find that Brown is very well thought of on the international stage and after delivering record braking numbers of quarters of growth, rightly so"

Partly right .GB inherited a very healthy economy...he even bragged about "64 quarters" of economic growth - But stop and work that out...that is 16 years!! So even Gordon Bruin admits the economy was growing for 5 years BEFORE he and NuLab got hold of the reins and created chaos!

and don't forget..he followed Tory fiscal policy for 2 whole years..

Pete Holly said #34

'Brown is an expert and a heavyweight leader. The Americans value his opinion and rightly so. Brown is an active leader'

Derek Barker said #35

'GB has been talking about this type situation for years'

So, our expert, heavyweight, valued, active, punching above his weight leader has been talking internationally about this for years, and has achieved precisely . . .

Nothing.

Mainly because despite talking about the need for better regulation of financial markets internationally he allowed our home markets to run with little or no regulation. I imagine the rest of the world might have taken some notice if he had actually practised what he preached.

derekbarker

"It is as simple as this....there is no-one in the UK parliament more able to shed some experience on this global down-turn than GB."

Spot on.

There is no-one in the UK better placed than GB to show how to achieve a local down-turn, so that must surely translate into how to manage a global down-turn.

Not sure what qualifications he has to manage a genuine up-turn. That's what we need.

"Capitalism has failed and America must adjust their regulation on banking and business operations."

Couldn't agree more. Or not.

Allowing financial services people to do whatever they like - recently stupid things - was a bad move. Not unique to the US, but definitely driven from Wall Street. NOT well managed in the UK. (That means that UK regulators took inadequate action to limit the stupidity factors.)

Still trying to work out which parts of what we call "progress" did not originate from a capitalist background.

Transport? Medical treatment and drug development? Energy generation? Education? All originated from "private money". Sounds like capitalism did and does a lot.

If Brown had been a bit more forceful, UK finance institutions would not have bought into truly stupid "investments". The problem would have stayed with the USA.

If the greedy and obfuscating institutions there (including their credit rating agencies) had realised they couldn't sell off toxic products, the whole bubble would have been pricked before it got out of hand.

If that's what you mean by capitalism failing, I'd agree. Lack of sensible regulation. That's a failure of government...

Unbridled capitalism can be a blight on people.

Problem is that "capital" originally seemed to mean the use of "capital assets" being flogged to deliver worthwhile outcomes.

In recent years, playing with pretend money has been allowed to get out of control. That's a failure of governments incapable of recognising that generating wealth from assets and financial gambling is rather different.

Brown managed the UK's funds directly - now apparently indirectly - for a decade. And squandered huge amounts of money. That's exactly the type of person we need to see us through a credit crunch.

After all, he allowed the UK to claim "growth" by permiting an enormous credit-based boom.

Is the BBC Politics page just there to report the triumphs of Gordon? I mean there was an interview with Cameron on Sky News where he was furious with the PM for misquoting Tory policy during his main speech. Is it not the duty of our BBC to report this even if it was with Sky? Please grow some and start attacking this terrible government!

derekb

"If America goes bust and introverts on her-self, then this world will be closer to that cuban missle crisis than ever before."

Were you around at that time?

When the USSR went bust, did it mean that a "cuban missle crisis" - assuming I understand your spelling correctly - came closer?

There are still bits of nuclear remnants scattered around the ex-USSR nations. Even the worst elements never presumed to unleash a nuclear holocaust. If the USA "went bust", the nuclear capacity would still exist. Do you really think the politicians would just push a button out of frustration?

If the USA went bust, it would be a real problem. For a century, they have driven global economic expansion. Dragging popular expectation along.

Maybe your history teachers failed to say that the USA was traditionally isolationist in thinking. Overly-keen to manage nations close to it but not too keen to get involved with global politics. Populated by peoples from UK, Germanic, Italian, Spanish, etc backgrounds.

So, not keen to enter WWI.

Very reluctant to enter WWII. Many (including JFK's father) thinking that Germany would win, so non-involvement would be best.

(Yes the same JFK who talked a lot, sh**ged a lot, didn't really do much, but left LBJ with a Vietnam war legacy and that same LBJ who actually saw through the legislation to bring a bit of liberty to all the citizens of the USA. Funny that JFK was lionised, while LBJ took all the flack... Maybe he was GB to TB's popular hero. Except that GB hasn't done anything so far. But LBJ didn't screw up his nation's economy.)

If you really think capitalism is so bad, how do you explain the progress of Russia and China? They have different models, but unleashed a capitalist approach that seems to be changing their nations' fortunes.

If you like, I'd be happy to take out a couple of random financial services executives and have them publicly executed "Pour encourager les autres".

Still wouldn't stop politicians here spend our money in a profligate manner.

Maybe a random... No that's not democratic.

Mostly a waste of time talking to the web world.

It would be good to find someone who really doesn't have a tribal view of life.

Never thought of Nick's site as a dating agency...

But he seems to encourage ephemera, rather than genuine political analysis.

Hey, Ho. At least he flies around with the PM's entourage. I suppose we pay for both GB and Nick. That's life...

There is no global financial crisis - but there is an Anglo-American financial crisis, due to a decade of terrible financial mismanagement and lack of oversight. For Gordon to keep his job, he wants to be seen bestriding the big stage. The price of his invite to the White House will be the British taxpayer forking out for a sizable chunk of American debt, as if our own weren't enough already. It beggars belief. The sooner both these men are out of their jobs the better - sadly they're busy mortgaging all of our futures before that happens.

What on earth could Gordon Brown who has made such a mess of our own finances have in terms of advice to offer an insight into world problems. He can't even organise his own back yard!

Just a small point for the usual vitriol that surrounds any mention of GB. Yes he will probably get us involved in the debt rescue (I'm not sure that it is the right way), BUT some of the debt is held by British Banks so he is in fact helping bail out our own institutions. One of the sticking points was that the American Public was going to be bailing out British Banks.

So perhaps GB meeting Bush is not just a photo opportunity of two leaders on a losing streak.

Curse of Brown strikes again -- as soon as he get involved, it all falls apart.

Do you think the US Taxpayers would like to keep him?

Maxskeptic @30 tells us

"I don't care" and then cites the fatcats in Africa who work the system for their benefit.....and ends with "Let them sort out their own problems."

Thanks for the insight:-)

I think it is entirely appropriate that both Brown and Bush meet.

It's probably the last time we'll see the architects of this disaster together, so it'll make a nice photo.

One thing was clear at the nulabour confrence - they were awfully keen to avoid talking about the inevitable - that GDP is going to turn negative in Q3.

So there's a stark denial of the 'bust' side of Gordon brown's claim that there would be no more tory boom and bust.

But what about the other side of the equation...no more boom? How can a man who allowed the money supply to grow at 15% per annum, allowed banks to have 50x leverage, added one million public sector workers, put 650bn of public sector spending off balance sheet, tripled the budget of the NHS to 100bn.....how can this man possibly lay claim to avoiding the 'boom'???? He pumped the boom up, he strapped on the after burners, he changed the fuel to high octane and yet his apologists on these posts keep asking the same question:

"but this is really an American problem, right?!"

Wrong.

Of course there's a problem in America but only the lightest of examinations of the UK would reveal a dangerously exposed economy.

Why do these apologists for newlabour and Gordon Brown think the currency is so weak? and still weak against the dollar if this is a US only problem?

The savings ratio in thsi country is at an all time low..the whole country is borrowning form the rest of the world not just the government. The banking sysstem is a net borrower; they simply do not have enough deposits.

Yet newlabour apologists still live in this dreamland tat nect time Gordon Brown speaks it will be to tell us that he's popped upstairs and found an old piece of china in the attic. He'll sell that and give it to the poorest hard working families who all deserve our sympathy.

This is the most patronising and disingenuous government in the western world.

Get a new leader and call an election.

The real people dealing with this issue have already met. Brown's visit is just a photo opportunity.

Our embassy in America should keep a life size card board cut out of Brown (a bit like the old John Smiths advert) and wheel it our for a photo on the lawn with Bush. Job done. The same result as the man being their in person.

This solution would have left the people who are actually trying to solve the problem time to concentrate on the resolution - without having to stop for a cup of tea.

A young South African man who lives and works in this country said to me the other day when we were talking politics:

"I hope you don't mind my saying, but most of the foreigners I meet here say - ""Britain tries to save the world but it can't save itself."" We are a laughing stock. Labour has caused us to lose our respect and we are just used by others coming here from abroad, migrants and immigrants. Our self esteem is low and we are losing our national heritage and sense of identity and culture. London is fast becoming an entire foreign city of its own. I can tell you, most people I know have upped sticks and moved out away from it. Why can't the Labour government see that? Why are so many of us emigrating to Australia, Canada etc.? To get away from this mess.

Blair and now Brown seem to get a buzz thinking they are saviours of the world.

You can't even buy English apples in Tesco now and the fresh flowers are all from Kenya and Holland. We should concentrate on our own backyard. Get out of the EU and start providing for ourselves here on our beautiful island.

America is great in some ways but often thought of as the sickest nation on earth. My daughter travels there a lot on business and is always relieved to be back home in England because, she says, they are all very false over there.

I cannot stand Brown and can never see him redeeming himself to me or millions others. Everyone I meet loathes him - if the Conservatives were to unveil their own policies at this stage Brown would only pinch them or try and "trump" them like he did last year at the Conservative party conference when he said he was bringing the troops back home. Hmmmmm. Pinch of salt...

Anyone railing against NuLabour appologists - please note, that many of the appologists directly rely on the government for their livelihoods.

Whether paid/benefitting directly or indirectly their main concern is that they know that they are not actually necessary (maybe even damaging) and that should their work end, it would not be missed.

They are fleas, trying to convince the dog that fleas are a good thing, that the dog should be greatful to them, and that the dog should not submit to a flea-spray.

You can't aruge with them because their existance is predicated on denying the truth. If they admit the truth, they cease to exist.

70 - The-real-truth

My sources tell me that the US do have a plan for Brown.

They are going to make him grow a beard and infiltrate him onto the Afghanistan / Pakistan border.

The plan is, that with a couple of million dollars backing, Brown is to infiltrate the Taleban and become their leader.

Whilst this gives Brown a role on the international stage that he craves, the benefit for the west is the total and utter destruction of the Taleban.

Brown will roll-out his model for government, based on the work he has done in the UK, and best forecasts expect total economic collapse and destruction of the Taleban as a political and fighting force within about 6 months.


The rampant taxation strategy to be deployed is straight forwards - although I hear they are having difficulty with the local dialect and coming up with a catchy sounding name for 'Sure Start'.

#65

Some people on this blog are suggesting that America should just let the banks go to the wall.

N. Korea relies on America for supplies, if America went bust and America could no longer keep it promise to states like N.Korea, then N.Korea would start its nuclear production again.

The middle east is a very volatile area, if America could no longer support Israel, then Israel would deal with Iran.

Look, I dont think it is any big secret, that the USA banks acted in a careless way.

Why have you got this, hang up, that you and you alone pay tax.


Most people are happy to pay tax for their public services.

If your big house on your pastures green is becoming a real burden then sell it!


Are you sure you have your history right with jfk and lbj concerning vietnam?

Crikey ! Let us hope that the bailout plan is sorted out *before* Brown turns up to put the 'Curse of Gordon' on it..

fknose @71,

Thank you for repeating the salient points of my post @30.

I presume, therefore, that you agree with me. (Otherwise what is the point of your post?)

Gordon is keen to avoid the boom word. Describes it as stability. Nulab like the rest of us believed the low inflation stability myth. Net result was a sense we could safely borrow more for longer. Tinker with the inflation index to perpetuate the myth and you have a problem waiting to happen. Crunch time only arrives when the ability to service long term debt is undermined - by unstable rocketing fuel prices, increased tax and food prices.

Yup, Gordon will take his photo op in the US and no doubt run some big story during the Conservative's conference next week.

Until there is better transparency in the way regulators allow 30% price hikes in fuel bills, accountability for the EU failing to cushion the markets by selling its wheat mountain too cheaply and an inflation index which reflects true costs of living to borrowers, all the conditions remain in place for a repeat crash in about 22 months time..

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It's probably the last time we'll see the architects of this disaster together, so it'll make a nice photo.

#74
Mr Barker, you question the chronology re Kennedy and Johnson and the Vietnam war.

I think you'll find that Kennedy had "observers" in place in Saigon from 1961, and gradually they became more operational. Johnson, as VP, was obviously aware of this, but the rationale for the intervention was already cast in stone by the time he took over the presidency, and the eventual escalation.

Brown, of course, has the same problem vis a vis Iraq and Afghanistan, and the "War on terror". He can no more disengage than Bliar could.

The man is an embarrassment to Britain. Does he honestly think he can have any possible influence on American policy? Bush has enough on his plate without this girning ape distracting him. His advice is not exactly of any use to anyone; he now has Britain in debt to the tune of about £100 billion; he sold our gold reserves when the gold price was zilch, the country is in recession and all of our governance is controlled by the EU commission. Now he's busy promising aid to the developing world while his own country faces the biggest problems it has had since the last Labour attempt at government. Our armed forces are engaged in two wars that are of no benefit to us and cannot be won, young soldiers are dying for nothing and he thinks he should be running this country. The man is in total denial. He should return home now, resign, and call an election.

76# The Real Truth!!!

Two recent "appologists"

Duncan Banatyyne (former Thatcher supporter) on last nights This Week programme supporting Brown as the right person to lead the country now.

Alan Sugar well known to hold similar views and recorded a message for Labours conference.

Both self made multi millionaier hard nosed business men.

Fleas on a dog??????????????

#83
Mr Hardwidge, you are confusing a dead cat bounce (re the slight rise in Labour votes in the latest opinion polls) with a resurgence of Labour's popularity with the discerning public. Inevitable, after next week's tory conference, normal service will be resumed, and most labour MPs can revert to wondering what life will be like outside of parliament.

It's great that some people don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.

Brown isn't popular here (and, I stress, with good reason) but his international standing is much higher. Whatever you may think of that, it is a fact.

He went to New York to the UN, so it's hardly suprising Bush didn't meet him "on the tarmac". Brown hadn't gone there to see Bush.

He was invited by Bush to the White House once he was in New York. Now, I don't know what behind the scenes stuff there was and if people were pushing for the meeting on Browns behalf but it has to be pointed out that Dubya has nothing to lose from declining to see Brown if he didn't want to- he's a President at the end of his term who has a major financial crisis on his hands, would he really bother to see the British PM unless the White House believed it might be worthwhile?

#86 I think maybe the support of such millionaires is why Gordon misunderstood the effect of his decision to abolish the 10% tax rate for low earners. We get alot of this "we're learning" kind of malarkey; it's a bit odd then that Gordon refers to others a novices. You often find this: some people paint others in the way they see themselves.

The striking thing about Bush during the current economic turmoil is that he hasn't a clue about what's really going on. Fortunately, he has some very bright people around him, and they are doing the job. Bush is an irrelevance, and will be out of office very soon anyway.

Ditto Brown. Irrelevant. Out of his depth. Hopefully there are bright people around him doing the actual thinking. Hopefully he won't be in office for too much longer either.

So their meeting is irrelevant. Bush will no doubt natter on about old-fashioned values back on the ranch. Brown will contribute from his bizarre, sanctimonious 'son of the Manse' morality (yawn).

Ignore these plonkers. Watch the experts, the Fed, Congress, the markets.

83 Charles

One of the tenets of Buddhism is that life is full of suffering



83 proves the point nicely

#86

'Sir' Bob Geldoff on the radio this morning reminding us that Gordon Brown has worked 'tirelessly' for the world's impoverished.

Shame he can't work 'tirelessly' to rebuild the national balance sheet....or is the 'Sir' bob on the National Savings adverts asking us to deposit our money with no safer body than...Gordon Brown's treasury.

They take us for fools.....and still fail to understand why they are so unpopular.

EH wrote:
'This paradoxical combination of talents has already halved the Tory lead.'

Methinks this is a bit of wishful thinking on your part. The poll was taken immediately after The Labour Conference and before The Ruth Kelly resignation. Let's judge the People's mood when David Cameron has spoken and after The Conservative Party Conference. I expect him to rip into Gordon Brown's rhetoric and to expose it as so much hot air. He will no doubt also mount a withering, sustained attack on Gordon Brown's economic legacy. People will soon come to realise that their living standards are continuing to drop in spite of his comforting words. There is precious little he can do about it so I expect the lead to widen again.

You'll all note that Washington Mutual has also now 'gone', primarily because some 16.7 billion dollars has been withdrawn by worried savers within the last ten days*.

The significant thing about this is that the US Government acted very quickly and decisively via the Office of Thrift Supervision to take control and sell it off.

You cannot but help contrast this with the muddled way in which the Brown devised tri-partite system handled NR.

It would seem that HMG have learn something from that debacle, hence the swift move as HBOS came under pressure recently.

However, Brown will never admit that his tri-partite system (BofE, FSA and Treasury) was and maybe still is, fundamentally flawed.

These people must have massive egos,which simply will not admit to any erorrs, except when backed into a corner i.e. 10% tax fiasco.


* I'd imagine that HBOS has also suffered huge outflows in recent times but of course, we will probably never know.

As far as Bob Geldof and his comments are are concerned I have little respect for this ageing celebrity who drops expletives at the drop of a hat. His wife committed suicide and his daughter is on drugs. Perhaps he should concentrate his attention nearer to home.

#83

With regard to your comment about God making house visits, the same is applicable to both death and financial ruin.
We can't escape death, but we can evade financial ruin, or at least recover from it, but only once we have removed the current Government from power.

#92 RobinJD

GB is unpopular, but if we are picking a leader and a government to lead our country in, and through, a very difficult economic time is popularity even a valid discriminator?

Are we, or should we not be, seeking a pair of hands, backed by a moral and ethical outlook, that will protect all of us in the best possible way?

Frankly, the Tories and their daft think-tanks horrify me. To become electable the Tories must show some backbone and a policy structure that will convince me, and the people, that they will produce, and have the skills to produce and manage, the economy. The Labour and Tory policy of over dependence on the checks and balances of the free-market got us into the parless economic state we are in today.

In short: who do you most trust to manage a very difficult economic outlook in a way that produces a society that you want to live in?

The Tories whose Thatcherite policies and attitudes got us where we are today, or a Labour party which if it returns to its roots, may possibly save us from the terrible consequences of the upcoming depression?

Having had a think about this, it's actually an impressive move from Brown. Here's a man who knows a lot about economics and was widely regarded (as Chancellor) as being very good at managing the UK economy. He was in New York and managed to get himself put on the President's diary.

Considering all the fuss about being overshadowed by the Pope last time round, I think Brown's flexing his muscles a little.

Chuck @83,

Back from Manchester?

I thought that you had pledged to stay away... Never mind: you must be a glutton for punishment otherwise you would not support a psychologically flawed looser like Brown.

misswaldorf @95,

Ooooooooh - No prisoners taken there. (A kindred spirit?)