Police beat up defenceless woman

I think the police have every right to be incensed about this betrayal by the British government. Much in the same way that teachers, firefighters, nurses and other public sector workers have been let down by the state, the government has now given two fingers to one of the most important services Britain have got. It's high time that our MPs realised that the average joe is not on their parliamentary salary and gave wage rises in real terms as opposed to what amounts to a negative or ineffective rise below inflation. This will be one more nail in the coffin for Brown and Labour, that seat in Crewe is turning blue.

You just can't blame them really! There is something so smug, complacent and detached about people who have been in power too long. Last night Hoon was virtually telling us all we never had it so good. You could almost hear the nations teeth grinding.

The trouble is for these great communicators that people know damned well that they do not have it so good. Things are not great and they look likely to get a lot worse unless you are an investment banker or Polish (I like Poles but not 1.6 million instead of the alleged 16000 or so we were told to expect). The 10p debacle says it all.

It always baffles me that people attributed with such great communication skills; people who are "listening" so intently to the public can get so out of synch with everybody.

The amount of money involved with the police was tiny - they were more upset by the cheating.

Who the hell can say we need 42 days and not laugh? Will they show real machismo and six weeks after pushing it through create emergency legislation to double that figure to 84 days.

Do they even know which audience they are playing to these days.

They don't "get it".

Surely the police got mugged by the government first?

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I really don't know what to think when I see these stories.

On the one hand, the government have no interest in the public's opinion, I can't wait to see the back of them and it's great to see the usually obedient police force stand up for a change.

On the other hand, they've been getting above inflation pay rises for the last decade. Every one of them that I've met has been patronising and threatening and has expected me to prove my innocence before allowing me to continue down the street. I also see nurses (who require a degree) being exposed to violent behaviour without any of the protective gear or backup for lower wages than the police officer whose spelling and grammar I am correcting as he takes my statement.


Unfortunately, the police have recently been doing a very efficient job of marginalising and suppressing the very people who would be likely to come out on a march and support them against the government.

Incompetent. She fits well with her cabinet colleagues.

Sadly the Police Force won't do themselves any favours with this move. ut that shouldn't stop them from shouting down an incompetent minister and her government.

We should all be doing this. Being patronised about steering us through the difficult times is a joke for a man who helped to get us deeper into water than anyone else.

The price to pay for all this excess will be a long slow and painful repayment of our debtors. Many will go bankrupt. The government will fall. Brown will, correctly, be blamed.

Well Well

First the Teachers, now the Police!

Spectre of the 70s spring to mind.

What next 3 day week and our dead laying unburied.

If I were in the police, I would be extremely annoyed to be told that a 2.5% pay rise would "risk economic stability", only to see the government blithely borrow £2700 million in an afternoon as a pathetic by-election bribe. Of course they are angry to be told such utter lies and held in such complete contempt.

The police can at least console themselves with their fantastically generous and unfunded pension scheme. Most of us in the private sector do not have anything like that luxury, again thanks to this government.

Crewe and Nantwich? That's nothing. It's hard to see the government holding on to many seats at all. Their time is past. Get your coats Labour.

I am very suspicious of 'vested interest' groups, whoever they are.

The police, teachers and MP's themselves all fall into that category.

The police and teachers in particular, operate an effective monopoly, in that, we the English public have to put up with whatever level of 'service' they provide.

I would like to see the system recast in such a way that the English people are provided with meaningful choices in terms of 'security' and 'education' services.

England is light years away from anything like that - just a couple of aspects of our sadly muted democracy.

I competely back the police with their demands. It is shocking how this Home Secretary and government have treated the police with such disdain.

Their arguments that inflation and mortgage costs will be kept down by not paying police officers an average of £3 per week are hilarious. It just goes to show how arrogant the government, led by gordon Brown, has become and that they actually believe that the police and the public believe these foolish lies. If the government were so worried about inflation, why did they give the country an unaffordable £2.7billion give away a week a go?!

Inflation is going up as are mortgage costs not because of small pay increases but as a result of bad governamce and to some degree international events.

This is definitely a weak Home Secretary who has to go.

It was not all that long ago we were told that the Home Office was not fit for purpose. Having seen Ms Smith so ineffective in getting these funds secured from the treasury, but also fail dismally in the argument for 42 days - which the police have not apparantly called for at all - I would suggest our Home Secretary is not fit for purpose.

Unfortunately now there is no money left, we are borrowing more and more to cover the spending that is just being frittered away. With our money in Northern Rock now confirmed as at risk, I do believe we are up a certain creek without any sort of paddle.

Crewe will be interesting and we will hear that they are listening, but it is all whether they hear us that is important.

A general election is what we want. Unfortunately we are no longer able to protest without a licence so maybe we should start a virtual protest instead asking for one.

I feel I must rsspond to the comments made by "the coopster".

As the wife of a policemen who has been in the force for nearly 30 years, I am incensed by the comment that the police officers should be happy with their generous pension scheme!

My husband has been obliged to pay a very high level of contributions for 30 years (the maximum allowable for any pension scheme) to get the same level of benefits that MPs get, for nothing, having made no contributions, after just 6 months' service!

He has also received annual rises which are meant to be the rate of inflation but, as they are (normally) backdated, they are constantly playing "catch up". MPs however vote themselves huge pay rises of, sometimes, as much as 40%.

What's fair about this?

Now Jacqui Smith is saying that "they" can't afford to pay the police officers what they are contractually obliged to pay them. She talks about not being able to afford to pay them as she is thinking about everyone's mortgages etc., but we need this rise to pay for our own mortgage and all the other bills that have increased!

What's more, we have two children who wish to go to University in the next few years and, whereas in my day grants were given to people to go to Uni, now we have to pay a fortune for the privilege and the students end up with a debt before they even start work.

Some Government!

Enough for now - I'll get off my soapbox.

If government agrees on independent arbitration, then welch on the deal for whatever reason, they deserve every bit of bad publicity and misfortune that may result.

If a government can prop up a bank or banks to the tune of billions , why can't they honour the agreement of police pay?

In Scotland they have been given the pay rise, if wee Scotland can do it , surely big England can!

People who have no right to strike should never be held to ransom and stabbed in the back over their pay.

All these people do jobs that are essential and they are not asking for a kings ransom they just want to pay their bills.

With the police being reduced to tax collecting on behalf of the government they are the latest in a line of workers who are being undervalued by our society.

If the government want to save costs they can get shot of the quango assemblies and reduce the number of MP's at westminster who with the mass of legislation coming from europe are now surplus to requirements.They of course would have to vote for that themselves so its not going to happen.

Mr Bean - No Bust

Prison Officers
Nurses
Teachers
Police

All having to work longer to stand still, to survive Mr Beans Boom.

Really beggars belief that Doctors got a substantial rise to work shorter hours!

But lets not forget Politicians used the Doctors pay in their claims of parity, when they submitted their claim for an increase to their independent pay review body.

As Mr Beans Boom bites deeper - Who will be next?

In 1997 many people felt - NuLabour New Hope
Now people feel NuLabour No Hope!

Think that says it all!

Jackie Smith should be commended for going to the conference and facing the police.

Imagine the reaction if she had ducked out.

As many people are saying here, the argument that this pay award would 'risk economic stability' is nonsense. Of course it wouldn't.

Now, underwriting UK bank wholesale credit - well that might just do it. Ignoring your own strictures as a government and stoking public sector borrowing - that, too, might do it. Declaring wars on several fronts and committing the military services to costly overseas adventures - that might also affect economic stability. And blithely watching a Balance of Payments deterioration without taking any steps whatsoever to deal with it - well, again, that could not fail to affect it.

But what government would be mad enough to do those things...?

I am increasingly despairing of a government that regards the citizens of this country as cretins who can't work out that the government has no strategy, no control, no clear objectives.

The aimlessness and incompetence is bad enough, but the belief that the rest of us are too stupid to see through the dull Brownite rhetoric is insulting.

Just how much does Gordon really know?

Following the cancelled general election it was suggested that the economy made it 'risky' to have put it of.

Also Brown has recently locked several public sector groups into long term (mulit year) pay deals.

It seems he knew what was coming - might he also have a much better idea of what it to come than he is letting on?

Saving pennies here and there while flushing millions down the drain (alcohol unit nannying for over 35's, half a billion on youth offenders to no effect etc) what circumstances can he be anticipating for this aparant nonsense to make sense?

The thing is, what Ms Smith and her new labour woodentops don't understand is that all of this could have been avoided. All they had to do was pay up. Now, she might think that having spoken with her media friendly boss that the tough love approach is the one to run with, or that a polite chat, a cup of tea and a garibaldi biscuit, would ease the path to a suitable new labour solution. It won't, just give our bobbys their money! Think about it, if they do go on strike who's gonna police the police??? (although I dare say there's a few ex miners that'd give it a go) Give them their money!

So the Government cannot afford the extra few fractions of one percent for the police, yet they can always find the odd £50 billion or so to bail out billionaire bankers? The working class get stuffed, by labour, in ways that even the tories would have been appalled at, and yet some, (thankfully a rapidly diminishing minority) people still keep harping back to the 80's in their misguided defence of this cruel bunch of working-class hating elitists posing as labour ministers.

When did the tories double the income tax of the poorest workers? Oh! that's right, that was LABOUR wasn't it?

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Labour are a cruel and vicious caricature of the old nasty tory party.

I am concerned at the politicisation of the police. They seam to have over many years to be associated with the Conservative party, who are always banging on about law and order and putting bobbies on the beat. Its usually just fear mongering. along the lines of 'don't go outside, its too dangerous under labour'. Where is there was no crime under the conservatives in the 80s and early 90s. Many of us know that that is untrue. The only time i was threatened with a knife was when john major was in power.

We are talking about a trivial amount for a police force that is well payed. a so called virtual cut because its an increase below inflation. If it was given, then maybe might still be below inflation as other pay demands have to be met and inflation goes up. There should be some complaint about the principal but the police are a public service. Not a division of the Conservative party. They are not there to help Conservatives win Bi-elections.

I have a lot of friends who are in the Police and the things they have to deal with make me realise they deserve every penny of the pay award!
I have voted Tory all my life but I was so sick of the arrogance of them that when Labour got in to power in 1997, I thought "hell, they can't be any worse and may even be better"!
However I have watched them go from Tony Blair behaving like the Del Monte Man saying "Yes" to anything and everything to behaving like a rather severe Nanny that told us not to worry or question anything at home or the world because they had all the data to make important decisions so we could all sleep peacefully at night.
They now show the arrogance that the Tories showed after such a long time in power. I honestly don't know who would be better as I think they are all so intent on believing how wonderful they are, they don't really care about the public that vote for them and pay their wages and fill their trough to feed from.
No wonder the 18-25 year olds can't be bothered to vote.

Money, money, money! Shame this government has none or you can all have some (and then they would take it back in tax)

Can you not see that this government is bankrupt not only with money but also in ideas and morals?

Nu (Improved) Labour or Useless Tories or Drip-drip Liberals?
Roll on 2010, if not postponed due to 'Emergency Powers'!

When negotiations are complete both sides are expected to honour the agreement. It would appear in this case that one side has no honour. I therefore can only offer my support to the other side in seeking restitution, including gaining the right to take industrial action. What with all the bureaucracy they have to suffer in their day to day duties, they need all the support they can get.

Prison Officers
Nurses
Teachers
Police

Mr Bean doubles the amount of tax low paid workers pay.

NuLabour sure look like they are the party that represents working people

NuLabour - NuLow

Kimtrace

Well if you compare your position to that of MPs, then of course you are worse off - who isn't?! That was not the comparison I was making.

I'm afraid I struggle to sympathise if you can get 2/3 final salary after a paltry 30 years!! I repeat - the private sector is far worse off, dramatically so in the last 10 years.

Ask an actuary, to get a 2/3 final salary pension you and your employer between you would at the moment need to contribute ~20% of your salary every year for 40 years. Public sector pensions are underfunded going forward by about 800 blllion (Source: Watson Wyatt). This cannot go on.

I am not saying you get rich on a police pension, but you are a lot less likely to be poor than if you rely on a private sector one nowadays, subject as they are to the discipline of publishing levels of funding, and being requires to maintain this, unlike the public sector. People need to wake up to the pensions apartheid in this country between public and private sector.

My company's scheme is in SURPLUS, yet still they had to close it to new entrants, and have raised contributions significantly. Cheers Gordon.

I have just read on Sky News that there is to be a fuel protest next week in London. What will the police do? What will Bottler Brown do? More over, will it be reported (If allowed to go ahead!!!) by the BBC???

May we all live in interesting times.

Last year the police managed to kill over 60 innocent people whilst tearing around in their jam-jars.

That there has been no outcry over that does tend to support my theory about powerful vested interest groups.

Fortunately, if you are wealthy enough, you can arrange you own personal security services.

Pity about the plebs eh?

Why on earth put the police pay decsion to binding arbitration if you then don't agree to it?

This is at the heart of the NuLabour government of al the talents problem. They say they will consult, they pay billions in consultation and lawyers fees and then ignore the recommendations.

EU referendum? In the manifesto? Promises, promises.

'On your side' the NuLabour campaign slogan needs to be changed to 'On the slide' or maybe 'Taking you for a ride'

7# Seen your comment before on here about retuning to the three day week in the 70's which of course was in Heaths Goverment in response to the disastrous hyper-inflation causing prices and incomes policy. Perhaps we will return to that if Cameroon, that well known Economics Guru/advisor to Norman Lamont takes over.

e can all look into the past with the benefit og hindsight and see Goverments mistakes, how far back should we go? Edens Suez Crisis?

In Government decisions have to be made and then face the scrutiny of the opposition, that goes with the territory. Armchair snipers like yourself, always there with an anonymous dig no doubt could do better. In my oppinion as we approach a time when the the next election could well deliver a new party in power we are entitled to put them as well as the government under the microscope but even hypothetical questions about their position on anything be it Northern Rock or the 10p question remain unanswered. Criticising others and highlighting problems has always been the domain of the weak and frankly pointless, Solutions, answers or alternatives are somewhat different

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#24 tobytrip

Money, money, money! Shame this government has none or you can all have some (and then they would take it back in tax)

Can you not see that this government is bankrupt not only with money but also in ideas and morals?

Nu (Improved) Labour or Useless Tories or Drip-drip Liberals?
Roll on 2010, if not postponed due to 'Emergency Powers'!

--------------------------

I agree entirely with your sentiments but can I also add that the Labour party is also virtually bankrupt? In recent years we have seen them sell Millbank, that infamous NuLabour bunker, and have had to reschedule their loans so frequently their bank must be dizzy.

They are really strapped for members, or is it liquidity - 20mil if I remember correctly!

NuLabour, government and party both bankrupt!

Roll on 2010 - 104 weeks and counting.

I,m sorry to swim against the current, but I don't think the pay rise should be backdated. This is the norm for the government. When I was a member of HM Forces (14 years), the armed forces pay review sat in April. They decided a rise for us - no consultation, btw, then the findings were published some time after. I particularly remember one year when we were awarded 7.5% - we were delighted - until we read the small print. We would get 2.5% in the November and the following March, we would get the remainder. This is typical of our modern governments. Emergency service workers, et al are all last on the list for money, equipment, the lot! Instead we have the bizarre situation where a group of people we elect, can award themselves anything they like, including a second home allowance, furnishings, the lot! - in short, the gravy train. The rest of us have to suffer for thier mistakes.

I'm sorry, but the Police have had inflation-busting rises in pay, get pension deals that are bankrupting local authorities, and retire before any other profession. They have lost touch with both reality and the public at large. GET REAL PLOD.... and start providing decent law-abiding citizens with a service!

Chubby Charlie Falkener on The Daily Politics said it was right that the Government should not "give in" to wage demands, as that could impact on inflation.

The Police actually "demanded" more than the Government was prepared to offer. It is quite possible that they claimed too much.
But, after no agreement was reached, the issue was sent for arbitration.

By failing to to honour the 2.5% award, the government "saved" £40Mil. That represents 0.00006% of their total £617Billion spend programme...

The government has now borrowed £2.7Billion (just for this year!) to rectify a stupid decision on tax-changes.

If that money is borrowed at even 2% interest, it will cost £54Million.

So where exactly does the "tight control of government expenditure" fit in? And will Brown or Darling have the courage to make sure that this year's "alleviation of pain" is carried forward into future year's tax planning? If they don't - then exactly the same problem will happen all over again.

Sir Ian Blair admitted that his comments to a Commons Committee that about a dozen terrorist plots had been foiled was inaccurate. It was actually six (6).

If the Commissioner of the Met can't be bothered to check his facts before coming to the Commons, then who will? You would think that Jacqui Smith would have publicly flayed him black and blue for "misleading" the MPs.

But I forgot. That's what Blair, Brown and this disreputable cohort have made a founding principle of government.

# 27

Delineates the plight of private sector workers regarding pensions.

Some astute commentators, notably award winning financial journalist Ian Cowie (Torygraph) warned back in 1997 that Gordon Brown might be inadvertently creating a sort of 'retirement apartheid' with his tax on private sector pensions.

Day by day, that is coming true.

In the not-to-distant future, the wealth gap between pensioners who worked in the public and private sectors will be a yawning chasm.

So much for social cohesion.

Sorry Coopster but 11% of my pay towards my pension is not an "unfunded pension". During the 80's it was increased from 7% to 11% and it has remained there since. People seem to forget that we pay the highest amount so that we can retire "early". Ms Smith and Co have demonstrated a clear contempt for the Police and has been evidenced by other comments, this has been at the cost of bailing out Northern Rock and buying a £2.7 billion bribe for voters. However I can agree with the comments from someone else that the standard of grammar from fellow officers is cause for concern, the txt generation!

#31: Eatonrifle

7# Seen your comment before on here about retuning to the three day week in the 70's which of course was in Heaths Goverment in response to the disastrous hyper-inflation causing prices and incomes policy.
----------------------------------------------------
The comment you quote is the first one I have made on these blogs!

I was referring to The Winter of Discontent! Remember Labour - could not even bury our dead, 3 day week does that ring any bells.

NuLabour the party that removed Clause 1V from their constitution - Nationalisation, yet have just Nationalised a bank!

Eatonrifle - Tinted vision at best, selective memory at worst!

Nick if you actually notice this post could you raise #32 with the powers that be? I assume you do not risk imprisonment in the Tower of London or exile or anything.

You get nothing but thanks and the opportunity to call Paxo a wimp.

#39
Correction

NuLabour the party that changed Clause IV in their constitution - removed Nationalisation, yet have just nationalised a bank! Now clause IV just consists of a wish list.

Eatonrifle no 31:

Are you serious? Do you really believe that 'criticising' is simply 'sniping' by the weak and pointless? Let a thousand flowers bloom! The point of the blog (as Ii see it) is for anyone with a view, to have it read. Are we ruled out of the process because we don't have a solution to a problem? Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're really saying is: you don't like no 7s views. Fair enough, just say it, don't hide behind some veneer of impartiality.

I'm sorry, but I have got issues with thecoopster.

Firstly, I'm not a police officer or related to one.

The primary concern of any police officer is public safety. Police officers do not decide that "today we will book motorists for speeding", these duties are set by senior officers who have in turn been set targets by the Government.

Police officers, like the Armed Forces and the other emergency services, are expected to save lives, at the cost of their own if necessary.

They also have to deal with arrogant lawyers in court, and in fact spend much of their time their for petty offences, because a lawyer has told their client to plead not guilty until the last moment - thus earning them more fees.

Thirty years is a long time to work for one employer, and for this level of public service they should be rewarded.

It was good to see that the Home Secretary at least had the courage to attend the conference, but you cannot ignore the findings of an independant review body and respond to criticism in a patronising manner. Had such a body decided on MPs wages, she would have been quick to accept the findings and explain that the Government was following the review.

Labour is more arrogant than the Tories ever were. The UK needed a change of Government in 1997.

It desperately needs one now.

#39 check your facts re the three day week , this will help your memory, feel free to come back.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2005/nyo/politics.htm

I think you'll find my memory is pretty accurate

You are quite right Nick, but does one not remember you saying that had it not been for Mrs. T. to hold firm against Unions' wanting more increases, we would have ended up with empty coffers?
One agrees with that, but then we only got inflation related increases and NOT above inflation increases for 10 whole years!

Look at the latest bad news Nick?
Tanker tracker Petrologistics said OPEC's oil output in May had risen by 700,000 barrels per day (bpd) compared with April. Extra OPEC crude has had little impact as the market has instead focused on short-term refinery problems, which are symptomatic of chronic under investment.
The perception available oil will struggle to keep up with demand for the foreseeable future has led to a series of bullish price forecasts from investment banks and influential investors. Billionaire T. Boone Pickens said yesterday he expected oil to hit $150 a barrel this year after Goldman Sachs said earlier this month a barrel of crude could reach $200 by 2010. Oil has risen from below $20 in early 2002.

All we need now is a Tory Govt. to reintroduce the fuel-tax escalator as confirmed by DC himself, and then excuse that inflation of 14% and over, is due to seasonal and unforeseen circumstances!

Then again, if Labour is in power, NO Tory mentions the rest of the world!

The present Global problems cannot and will not be sorted by petty adjustments to the economy as is being suggested, but by tightening of the belts as one of the IMF Chief said a week ago. We are in this for the long haul.

#42 Firstly I think its clear I'm not impartial, like everyone I have a view and of course everyone is free to criitcise, however I feel that HM opposition shoud do rather more than that and put forward their alternatives or solutions so that they can face some scrutiny. Do you have a problem with that? I feel that Cameron does, Decisions, right or wrong speak for themselves, silence and evasion are rather more diffuicult to interprate

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#44: Eatonrifle
#39 check your facts re the three day week , this will help your memory, feel free to come back.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2005/nyo/politics.htm

I think you'll find my memory is pretty accurate

-------------------------------------

politics.htm I think that about summed it up for me! Trust our politicians. Wow thats asking a lot, certainly in today’s climate. Inflation 3% how many people would agree with that today.

There are statistics and there are also NuLabour statistics

Back to the relevant topic:

Winter of discontent

Unable to bury our dead

Refuse piling up on our streets

NHS ancillary workers formed picket lines to blockade hospital entrances with the result that many hospitals were reduced to taking emergency patients only.

Power cuts - 3 day working weeks

Shortages of food.

Eatonrifle - Tinted vision at best, selective memory at worst!

Whatever one's politics it may be that we should feel a little sorry for the unfortunate Ms Smith. I suspect much of the situation she finds herself in was not of her making. I don't think that it was her decision to withhold the pay rise from the Police. As the reason given concerned the Nation's finances it must have come from higher up. Likewise the 42 days detention (and ID cards) were not her personal initiatives. Indeed does it seem that the recent proposals for a national database of electronic communications originate from Ministers.

She has a department self confessed as unfit for purpose and a rag bag of, at best, barely defendable policies. I think she might gain a deal of support from all sides if she resigned.

This whole shabby affair tells you everything you need to know about this Government.

Paying the police (who cannot defend themselves by striking) in accordance with the recommendations of their Pay Review Panel is a matter of honour and trust.

This Govt has acted totally without honour and has breached any trust between them and the police. It is shameful,

Jacqui Smith then goes on to insult our intelligence by saying this was to stop inflation. We all know that in reality this was Gordon Brown trying to curry favour with the masses by trying to appear tough on pay on a high profile element of the Public Sector, ("Look at me, keeping public spending under control.....trust me with your taxes!"). It is so obvious it is pathetic. Why pick on the Police? Why not the nurses, or the teachers, or more to the point, the civilian support services to the Police Force - the civilians got their pay award so why not the Police? Well, tough old Gordon Brown is only "tough" on those who can't fight back....the Police can't strike so they are an easy target. The politics of this decision stink.

Oh yes...and if the Government is so concerned about inflation why did Gordon Brown argue last week in that interview with John Humphreys on Today that the £2.7billion was made to "support the economy" Isn't this inflationary?!They can't even argue from a consistent position.

Every decision Gordon Brown takes (and let's not think Jacqui Smith is responsible here - this was Brown's decision) is taken for supposed personal political gain. He deludes himself that he is a man of principle who plans for the long term, but his actions say otherwise. He is a short term political operator, but his problem is he is a very bad one and his decisions increasingly have a habit of backfiring spectacularly, (Police pay, cancelling the election, 10p tax, negative campaigning in Crewe etc etc)

History will be very hard on Ringmaster Gordo and his cabinet of clowns.

#48

So you chose not to follow the link then. If you choose to believe the three day week and the power cuts were under a Labour Government that is up to you, its simply a matter of fact rather than opinion that it was during Ted Heaths Governmnt.

But surely as its over thirty years ago now it starts to loose relevence as I said where do we stop, don't forget the National strike of of '26, no don't tell me that was Callaghan too!

AS fo adding "shortages of food" just for good measure, that is truely "strange"

Eatonrifle:

Get real. Yours is a fantasy politics. The reason Cameron and his party refuse to put forward 'solutions' (as you claim) is because they don't need to. There is nothing to be gained from it. New labour is dying. Besides, it is the job of the government to find solutions to their problems, not the opposition.

Sure, there's a case for arguing that the party in opposition should debate 'contructively', but in my book, being constructive means simply holding the government to account for the endless porkies they tell and political miscalculations they make.

#46: Eatonrifle
#42 Firstly I think its clear I'm not impartial, like everyone I have a view and of course everyone is free to criitcise, however I feel that HM opposition shoud do rather more than that and put forward their alternatives or solutions so that they can face some scrutiny. Do you have a problem with that? I feel that Cameron does, Decisions, right or wrong speak for themselves, silence and evasion are rather more diffuicult to interprate
---------------------------------------
I would certainly agree with your later point - evasion is rather difficult to interpret.

Are you a politician? I only ask because evasion is a particular trait so often associated with politicians, of all political persuasions!

Unfortunately evasion, along with its older brothers corruption, lying, deceit and sleaze appear to be the tenets that Westminster is currently built on.

The British public are sick to the back teeth with the shabby state of politics today.

Why do you think the people of Britain currently hold Politian’s in such low esteem.

Arbitration and negotiation are now the keystones for settling industrial disputes, for one party [the government, whether Labour, Conservative, or Martian] to decide to abandon such a process because they don't like the outcome sets a dangerous precedent. With the recent rises in the prices of oil and hence fuel, food etc. failure to backdate such a pay award is a poor example of penny pinching.
Trying to keep a cap on this when inflation is climbing will do considerably more harm than good.

NuLabour - NuLosers

#171 your quite right. I'm afraid that renaging on the police deal was a rather futile mistake, for what it would have cost the government to have settled this, the back dating I'm talking about, it was never worth it to bring discredit on themselves, the ten pence tax rate was another one and I am afraid that the forty two day bill is another, I am a avid supporter of labour and a great admirer of Gordon Brown but these three things are own goals and could have been easily avoided, there's still time to drop one of them, I dont see anything wrong myself in the forty two days but with so many MPs against it then it would be foolish to push it through.
Labour has done so much for this country that to let these three things spoil it for them seems silly, as sad as I am to say this.
To get back to Jackie Smith she did show amazing courage to step onto that podium and face all those police of both sexes, no disrespect but I wonder how many of those brave police officers would have got up there in similar circumstances, and it was wrong for anyone to disrespect her, it reminded me of the time that Tony Blair was asked to speak at a WI conference he accepted knowing that his audience were mostly Tories, and these ignorant women that had invited him slow hand clapped him. what did that say for those women, to invite someone to inconvenience themselves with the sole object of insulting your guest.They did'nt get themselves any respect for that and they should'nt have

52#

As you say and probably rightly that the Labour Government is dying then we can be 99% certain it will be the Tories next.

Why is it wong to want to know their policies?

# 55 Nu labour Nu losers its amazing you did'nt try to fit in bean and ditherer or even as some great brain thought up McBroon all these expressions have been used about five hundred times but your use of them was probably the worst yet, climb back in your playpen and take your afternoon nap it must of been very tiring for you to write that posting.

To 'thecoopster' and all members of the media who bring up the cost of police pensions, and what a cushy little perk they are. Police Officers pay 11% of their salary for this pension scheme from the first to their last pay packet. It is one of the few good things about the pay and conditions package, but it does cost them. Incidentaly, its based on the civil service pension scheme, used to pay the pensions of 1000's up and down the country.
Stop moaning about how much i pay towards my old age, it costs you nothing at all. Listen to this bit, not a penny. If you think its so good, come and join us on the thin blue line.

51: Eatonrifle
#48

Read my lips - Energy Unions on strike, 3 day week, surely even you can equate No Power and food shortages, guess not.

I was a member of Labour Party at the time so can clearly recall those happy Labour days.

Now regarding your point of relevance;

Ineos a private energy company have been on strike 50 mil a day losses.
Nurses preparing to strike.
Teachers on strike.
Police preparing the grounds for a strike.

Does sound like history is preparing to repeat itself.

By the way I was an active trade unionist at the time. So I do know how important it is to protect your family’s interests, certainly in todays current climate. I can only sympathise with the workers who have been betrayed by this shabby NuLabour government.

Labour ministers are hard to find as it is so if they keep on getting a hard time they will vanish fron sight.would people stop asking them questions that need a direct answer instead of the party line.On the daily politics show today the labour man(Faulkner I think) was having a hard time explaining why there was no money to pay the police but 2.7 billion for freebies.

NuLosers - NuDitherers

Grandantidote 56:

Bit insulting: those ignorant women of the WI??? Ignorant about what? Or just generally ignorant? All Tories? Lets talk about ignorance for a while: how about the general ignorance of the Brown administration when it comes to comprehending the difficult circumstances now faced by many of us trying to make ends meet (like, for example, even ordinary policemen)

Why should they show her respect?

Furthermore, I suspect that any policemen used to walking around our city centers on an evening at the weekend would have little difficulty doing what Ms smith did.

#58:

Mr Bean - I make no apologies whatever for using that expression. But I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr Cable for coming up with that name. An expression that perfectly describes the leader of the NuLabour Party - In this world but not of it.

Whilst in the Labour Party my comrades and I used to call Peter Mandelson - Mandy, just an expression.

If that’s the best you can attack me on, you had better have a NuLabour Team huddle - you are losing!

Wow, I bet you have even got me pegged as a Tory, but can I assure you I would not have a problem calling the leader of the Tory Party - Flashman, or indeed any other term that best fits him.

I am not surprised you have picked up my use of the term McBroon, I am surprised you have not accused me of prejudice or worse racist. But after all I am a Scotsman living in England and although I really enjoy the banter with Team NuLabour on these blogs, I spend most of my time on a number of blogs across Scotland.

Guess what? That’s what many of my fellow countrymen call him. So you will have to forgive me if I do frequently slip into Mr Broon or McBroon mode. If Mr Bean upsets you, tough, get used to it.

It may also surprise you were I come from Kirkaldy - the lang toun. Now I wonder who represents that area. At least up to 2011.

# 48 simple answer to the three day week . your on a computer , just type in three day week and you have the answer not difficult , I just did it it was the Conservatives under Ted Heath that had a three day week.

#60

Ok I give up. I think you said I had a selective memory? I simply pointed out that your refernce to the "three day week" being associated with Labour government in the 70's was a little misplaced. I sent you a link to the National Archives which gave a narrative of the events in 1973/4 during Ted Heaths government which explained how we arrived at the "three day week" but still you persist. There are clearly two versions of events, mine supported by the National archives and Yours.

It could of course be a Government cover up!

#65: grandantidote
# 48 simple answer to the three day week . your on a computer , just type in three day week and you have the answer not difficult , I just did it it was the Conservatives under Ted Heath that had a three day week.

grandantidote

Better idea, just type in winter of discontent.

After all thats what I am talking about!

As I said before been there worn the T shirt.
Unfortunately it had a monkey on the front!

65#

Thank you so much, I'd lost the will to carry on!

The hypocrisy of this Govt is clearly displayed today.

It was brave of the Home Secretary to go to Conference but it hardly matters anymore, courage should go hand in hand with intergrity.The point that several bloggers have already made around the speed of bailing out bad investments with huge sums of money which we ALL will pay for and at the same time renaging in the police's case on an independent pay agreement in the hope that the police wouldnt and couldnt kick up a fuss is just the thin edge of the wedge.

I am not a political animal but the cynical way this Govt has gone about its business makes me feel that none of us in whatever walk of life can trust them to do the right thing, unless that it's within their own personal interests to save their political skins.

Brown made a pledge to act with integrity and fairness for all on his ascencion to the Blair throne, well barely a year in and the true colours and cracks in this regime show them for what they are - self serving and totally out of touch about how difficult it is for everyone whether they are police officers or pensioners.

Frankly I think the whole affair is shameful and a sad reflection on where we are and where we have been going for sometime only now the lies and hypocrisy can't be spun away or concealed behind the next new scheme.

3 day week - perfect for the summer! Bring it on

63 doctor gloom ignorant about what, why should we show her any respect. that says a hell of a lot about you my friend. that old chestnut of trying to make ends meet, give it a rest. Poor policmen strugg ling to make ends meet they've got one of the best jobs in the country for their skill level, they have six weeks sick pay a year and most of them take it sick or not, and did you hear the awards the recieve after retiring at fifty who else gets better than that. Nip down to the fishermans wharf and see how much they get for the work they do in the very worst of conditions and no golden handshake at the end, and their in the worst possible danger every time they go to sea. I have believe it or not great respect for the police but please dont give me a sob story about them, the job they do is the job they chose so dont encourage them to bellyache about it. your last paragraph, two entirely different types of courage, we all walk around our city centers on the week end and we dont all congregate around a police officer when we do this.

Once upon a time a horse was worried about a wolf and so talked to a man - pointing out that the man was also the enemy of the wolf. The man agreed to help providing the horse allowed him to put on a saddle and bridle to help him hunt down the wolf. The horse agreed and the man hunted down the wolf and killed it. The horse then asked the man to remove the saddle and bridle - the man said 'like ****'.

Labour has invested in and created a vast number of people in the social services/ administration areas creating a class that are more likely to vote labour than tory. This class has helped them to defeat the tories in 3 elections.

Now it's payback time. They can't stop the people in these areas making their demands from them.

# 67 NuLabourNohope, nope! just tried winter of discontent, nothing, not a glimmer any other suggestions.

I wonder how many time over the £ 2.7 billion pound bribe for the Crewe by election could have paid for the difference up to the Police's full pay rise?

Just a thought!

#72weejonnie. Love the horse story, but it all goes down from there, you should have told us another story instead of that nonsense.

#73: grandantidote wrote:
# 67 NuLabourNohope, nope! just tried winter of discontent, nothing, not a glimmer any other suggestions.

Why dont you ask central office for a new one, it appears either you PC or you are not up to scratch.

The tinternet is a wonderful thing!

I find it strange that the government claims to not have the money to afford a modest pay rise for police, and yet can find £100bn to prop up a bank which failed due to reckless management.

Spot on #72 - build a client state at your peril should be tattooed on Gordon Brown.

It's one thing buying votes but it's quite another when they turn around like 'Oliver' and ask for some more.

You reap what you sow. These boys are going to spend the next two years having to clear up their own mess from public sector pay, to busted PFI, bloated private sector debt, an over inflated housing market and everything they do will be unpopular.

You reap what you sow.

So Ms Smith wants the police to take a below inflation pay rise 1.9% to help the economy. We are told that inflation is about 2.25% and might go up to 3%. What do you know has gone up in the last year by 3%? Food up by over 16%, Petrol about 20%, Gas and electric up by 10%-15%, Average rail fares up 4.8% and even the capping for Council Tax increases was set by this Government at an inflation busting 5%.
Surely Ms Smith has now given the police all the incentive they need to investigate this inflation fraud/con, which is being perpertrated by Mr Brown and his ministers on the Great British Public. Maybe we should all go to a local police station (if it hasn't been closed) to report this crime.

#73

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

I think you'll find this was rather a grim time and largely a self inflicted Labour party wound.

Spot the similarity?

I used to have a lot of time for the Police, in fact I even served as one for a couple of years but left when I saw how it was evolving and becoming more and more politicised at the expense of the people at large.

Having said that, this really boils down to being absoultely stupid enough to think New Labour would honour a pledge. Only a complete moron would do that.

@64 NuLabourNo hope wrote "Mr Bean - I make no apologies whatever for using that expression. But I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr Cable for coming up with that name. An expression that perfectly describes the leader of the NuLabour Party - In this world but not of it."

Mr Bean the comedy Nerd, is an unwise term of abuse to aim at Gordon Brown, for any of us typing into a political blog lets face it! It is even unwise for Vince Cable. as politicians are hardly the popular quarterback in the college football team.

#71: grandantidote

Just one question. Are you the Jack Russel or is it Kwiqlegs.

Me I am a scotch Terrier!

Can I make one observation? You would make a brilliant NuLabour Politician for two reasons:

You appear to have the same contempt for working people, including police, as Mr Broon has.

You have a wonderful turn of phrase that would sit well within the NuLabour Politburo.

Only thing left - are you as good a liar as Mr Bean is.

Note that your NuLabour team member dhwilkinson has come online - cue dhwilkinson, he appears to be as touchy as you about my use of Mr Bean. Tough!

I can't help comparing the attitude of said denizons of Westminster to a) their own remuneration with b) the arbitrated recommendation for the Police force.

Come on Team NuLabour can you not raise the bar a bit.

dhwilkinson blah de blah de blah!

As I said before I have been were you are, I have worn the T-shirt.

Have standards in the NuLabour camp gone this low since I left?

Looks like Team NuLabour have gone away to regroup. So I will go now to take my usual tour of the Scottish bloggs. Scotland, they know how to treat their police with respect!

The Dali Lama has called for people to support the Olympics and is open to mature discussion with China. He feels that any controversy is being stirred up by the media. This is a much more positive and consensual long-term approach than the short sighted view of the police and media fuelled hysteria we've seen over this issue.

My view is that the police and media are being a little egotistical. Their impatience and greed is a legacy of the years of asset stripping and consumerism. If both law enforcement and journalists are to help develop a better Britain they must take more personal responsibility if Britain is to avoid becoming a more obviously failed state.

Getting the facts, being flexible, and digging in for the long haul are easy when you want something but it's remarkable how people lose their heads when they become too personally involved. The Dali Lama is big enough to acknowledge and thank the Prime Minister for his genuine concern. The police and media could learn from this.

#64 NuLabourNohope, No it does'nt worry me if you use the term bean or Mcbroon but it would be more fun if you had actually thought of one of these names your self even flashman, I was told by a conservative who was as equally unimaginative as yourself that the nickname Mandy refered to his sexuality and was'nt intended to be amusing atall, I had no intention of attacking you, my letter would have been very different if I had. no I am not in the least interested in your politics thats your choice, but it is a little interesting that Vince Cable crossed the house as well. One sure thing though the only thing in his political career that he is likely to be remembered for is his Mr Bean Joke which I found very ammusing but after several hundred times and used by people who have not got the wit of Vince Cable it becomes a bit tiresome as does your McBroon. I dont think your racist or prejudiced but you are boringly repetative,but there you are if you struggle real hard you may come up with something original. Then we'll all say what a clever boy..

nulabournohope, i can empathise with someone who was once a labour party member but became disillusioned and left. i have also become disillusioned, but have chosen to stay - after all, a political party is its members, not its leaders. but also i do recognise this government has some achievements to its name, and seem to find myself defending it frequently. anyway, your mistakes about the three day week notwithstanding, there is a point i would like to raise. you said:

28:

Prison Officers
Nurses
Teachers
Police

Mr Bean doubles the amount of tax low paid workers pay.

nonsense- the 10p tax rate meant that anyone earning over £18,500 is better off. the majority of those professions, except perhaps those new to them, earn more than 18,500, and so are better off.

John Constable - shouldn't you be on the side of the police? :)

The fact that the government broke its promise to the police service about pay is another reason why people have lost trust in it. It was done for political reasons to 'send out the message', that is was being 'tough on inflation, and tough on the causes of inflation' - except when it borrows £2+ billion to solve a problem it created itself and still manages not to do it.

But isn't it a disgrace that a government that spends so much time, and presumably money, on terrorism prevention, won't pay the people charged with protecting us, the money they were awarded?

Perhaps it's a case of the government being

"Tough on crime, tough on the fighters of crime"

Another home-made and totally unnecessary and avoidable problem.

It looks like the Home Secretary will have to go out for a kebab on her own tonight !

#90 yes, in theory -:)

I was taking a view of this issue from a different perspective .. which of course, was to point out that the English public do not have any choice with respect to their 'security' service.

They are stuck with the supplied provider, namely, the 'Police Service' no matter how they 'perform'.

However, I do agree that if you submit to independent arbitration, then it is incumbent on both parties to accept the outcome of arbitration.

Government/MP's have been a rule unto themselves for quite some time now.

They deserve the chop ... some would say literally.

Very well said

69. At 4:05 pm on 21 May 2008, steve2206 wrote:

#83 My dogs a Jack Russell, and your a Scots i***t, I'm no authority on this but I thought scotch was a drink and a scot was a man or woman from Scotland
#83 please Please dont come back, join the conservatives they could do with a top up since Queinton took the walk , just dont come back.
#76 The internet a wonderful thing, but you must learn how to use it if you want facts.
I'm beginning to have grave doubts that your any of the things you say.

89# Moderateprogressive

Oh no dont come on this message board with actual facts rather than paranoid rhetoric and misplaced recollections about previous governments, you'll get pilloried. I hope you're wearing a hard hat mate, prepare for the onslaught from those enlightened by the Daily Mail version of the truth.

They are stuck with the supplied provider, namely, the 'Police Service' no matter how they 'perform'.

However, I do agree that if you submit to independent arbitration, then it is incumbent on both parties to accept the outcome of arbitration.

Never mind this, I've just clocked Nick down the Blackstock Road in Highbury in a Manchester United top in preparation for the final tonight!!!

I suppose the upside is that politics is getting exciting again. Those in power - arrogant and deaf to public opinion for so long - are suddenly confronted by the possibility of being booted out by us, the great unwashed. It's nice to see them squirm.

And David Cameron certainly knows how to wind up Gordon Brown (PMQs today). Brown gets angry and flustered and starts spouting statistics. It hasn't done him any favours - do you want 'the man with his finger on the button' to loose his cool so easily?

And Nick, I heard you say you were genuinely shocked by the attack on the Home Secretary at the police conference - you are far too much of a gentleman for this dirty business! - but you do it very well. Now if Gordon Brown had your temperament and your ability to speak plain English things might be different...

Perhaps they could save money and award the police by instead of using security guards at government installations etc. merely put a picture of Mrs Smith outside, as the site of that old crone is enough to scare anybody off.

# 97

Yeah, lets dump this political stuff for one evening.

Glug down a few beers and enjoy watchings the Mancs and Chelski kick lumps out of each other, interspersed with hopefully some divine footie.