What next for the eurozone?

So sad to see Ireland fall but it's Celtic tiger economy was nothing but a debt bubble. I remember my father in law hailing Bertie Ahern a few years ago for guiding Ireland to economic success. How hollow he sounds now with Ireland a failed state in all but name.
I hope the Irish soon rally and the country picks up. Maybe when the good times come around again there will be less buying of flash cars and big houses?

I am just glad we are not in it.

Wait... I have a wonderful idea...!!!

We can ALL...

BORROW our way out of DEBT !!!!!

?????????? eh? ?????????????????

Unlike the USA where central Gov controls the major budgets and therefore has control over the Money supply and the tools and mechanisms to control the currency, the Euro whilst it is centrally managed does not have the same controls, therefore it is impossible to control it.

Each Government does what it thinks best for it's own people, the ones who elect them, that unfortunately does not always equate to what is best for the whole of the Euro zone, hence basket case economies like Greece and Ireland and to a lesser extent Spain.

I just hope that the UK is not expected to contribute to the bail out(s) of these countries, we give enough to the EU without propping up the Euro.

What next for the eurozone?

It needs a mechanism to decouple toxic nations like Greece and Ireland from the Eurozone, otherwise they risk sinking other, far more prosperous countries within the zone.

Though what those countries would use for day to day financial transactions is a bit tricky - perhaps the EU could issue a second non-tradeable currency perhaps called the 'Pauper' for use in bankrupt member nations until they get back on their feet.

As an aside, I would be interested in any data which shows just how negative the effects of the international money market have been on countries like Greece and Ireland, make no mistake, there are organisations and individuals who have made substantial gains, directly from their misery.

If it was not for the Euro, then Ireland's government will have to rely on the tender mercies of the IMF and the World Bank.
All one can say is thank goodness for the Euro.
No other currency could do that; rescue the economies of member countries and monitor their progress.
Within a few years, there will be healthier EU as a result.

Personally I have 2 conflicting hopes. I hope the eurozone falls because the EU is a detestable group. Some people like them but the bad outweighs the good by miles.

But I dont want the people of the eurozone to suffer. I felt sorry for greece when the bone idle EU debated dropping them as a member. If the EU is incompetent (it is) it shouldnt be abandonning its members to pay the price.

What ireland does we will see but I hope it can survive without the EU's help because those sorry excuses for unity may consider dropping them too.

Heres an idea every country is in debt so if every country refused to pay the debt what could anyone do? that's right NOTHING.

Not so long ago there was a big deal at HYS over whether the Euro would survive after it slipped close to $1.20, now those days are forgotten.


I suspect it will be the same this time around although it might take a litle longer.


As I understand it Ireland's problem has been brought on by the bank bailouts, when they were lending out money willy-nilly to all comers, without checking whether people had the means to pay them back.

Could this be pay-back for Ireland voting 'yes' to the lisbon treaty?

I realise that other Euro members will be assisting Ireland if needs be. However, because Euro members need to follow Euro rules rather than do what is best financially for their country, they might not be in this mess now had they never joined. Did they really meet the criteria?

It is political suicide to say, “we got it wrong….”, where is the wrongly held self belief in superior ability all politicians have?
Now they have an out, they can claim that they were doing brilliantly until THEY (outsiders) interfered with scare mongering! It was the outsiders fault!
The Euro is/was a farce from start to the much needed end, hopefully soon. To be replaced with a much needed trade currency not run by those who have political capital to gain. Too few stable secure currencies were able or willing to allow an untried service/system to try to launch a currency. A currency based more on the eurocrats’ and politicos’ dream of a supra-state for them to run, than the idea of a stable trading currency. Therefore the smaller, more volatile currencies the PIIGS, were roped in. They were allowed, encouraged to provide figures that “met the criteria”, rather than “reflect reality”. Critical mass reached – the euro, fatally flawed limped on to the stage. Political expedient outweighs rational thought. Now it is unwinding.
If it needs to be saved, so be it. Let the members who have gained in political and economic preferential treatment, “the good boys” got. Let the economies of the Eurozone pay. This is politically unacceptable, they will not and cannot! Therefore Britain and others, who did not swallow the hype, must save the flawed system.
If the Prime Minister was capable, Britian would gain a lot! With what we have watch us lose heavily!

what next for the eurozone?

wel how about some decisions and actions, were either all in for the eu or we get out. because sitting on the fence is doin nobody any favours.

i feel the eu would work but there are to many individual countrys if we just all worked together the eu could be great, but as it is id rather be out of the eu than stuck in limbo.

I am no expert but I have a feeling that the Euro is built upon false foundations i.e. very few, if any, satisfied the criteria required for membership; and that was known at the time countries were allowed to join.
The current UK, and world in general, economic crisis has prompted a lot of "expert" analysis of the reasons why it came about. To me, it all comes down to individuals, and nations, borrowing to finance the lifestyle they think they deserve. The only money I have ever borrowed was that required to purchase a roof over my head; and that was for an amount that I was able to repay easily.
If the Eurozone, or any other nations for that matter, thinks it can spend its way out of this crisis then I think we are all doomed; but I am not an "expert"; but maybe economics are not that complicated really and perhaps I am an expert.

Is the stability of the euro at risk?
Sure, you can expect sensible answers to that question from the armchair economists that frequent HYS.

At 3:39pm on 15 Nov 2010, No Victim No Crime wrote:
Heres an idea every country is in debt so if every country refused to pay the debt what could anyone do? that's right NOTHING
------------------------------------------------------
The international bankers could apply to the courts for repossetion of the world!!!.

Sorry, they already own it don't they as everyone is in debt to them?

Rotten luck Eire, I once asked a guy how he could afford to buy so much on such a small income, straight-faced, open and unashamed he said debt, live now and pay later, he`s doing just that and refuses to face it-being broke, I could`nt help feeling smug about this big time small timer. Shame about the principiled Republic, they once held euro toytown to ranson over the treaty until it was tailored to suit them, 30 pieces and all that,...it`s come home to roost, Lol.

When will the EU publish the Financial Statements?

7. At 3:38pm on 15 Nov 2010, in_the_uk wrote:
.

But I dont want the people of the eurozone to suffer. I felt sorry for greece when the bone idle EU debated dropping them as a member. If the EU is incompetent (it is) it shouldnt be abandonning its members to pay the price.

------

Greeces former government cooked the national account books.

They lied both to the EU and their own bankers about the state of their economy over a period of years.

Thats the context in which their expulsion from the EU was being discussed. - If the former Greek government had come clean with the EU years ago then, arguably, their economy would never have been allowed to get into the state it did.

Get out of europe and it will cure all our woes.

What next for the Eurozone ? I am an enthusiastic Europhile, but I think the Eurozone will be going nowhere fast unless and until the EU does three things: 1: Continues the long-overdue reforms to its budgeting, auditing and general accountancy. 2: Abandons the purely symbolic and ridiculously expensive biennial headquarters relocation between Brussels and Strasbourg. 3: Tackles the endemic corruption, fraud and expenses abuse. When those are achieved the Eurozone can begin thinking about the much-needed reforms to the banking and financial systems and addressing the huge and ever-increasing gap between rich and poor. The Eurosceptics would soon be left whistling in the wind.

Just how much of this is currency manipulation?.
The US dollar is trying QEII (Titanking?) now the other currencies want to lower the value of their OWN monies, without wanting to be seen to do so. (Obviously - lower currency means higher prices - food for a start). the have just "agreed" not to do so.

Since Bonds are regularly bought by Governments (including their own) are they the ones doing the manipulation this time? Or is it the US FED trying to scare others out of the Euro into the dollar - again.

The "Eurozone" is relatively stable, as are most other countries.
It is the action of the FED that has changed everything.
-----
One thing that Ireland and other countries MUST steer clear of is the IMF and World Bank. Originally the IMF was set up at the moment when many (not just one) African countries were seriously thinking of defaulting together. Their collective debts (or at least the INTEREST on the debts) were more than their revenues. The IMF was created so that the Wests' Banks would continue to get their blood money AND break up the local welfare and social systems to allow multinationals and other vultures, easy unfettered access. The Africans would then KEEP on paying outrageous interest, (over a longer term), incidentally keeping the "filthy rich" rolling in lucre.

The global disaster that has ensued since then, increased poverty, rapine of natural assets, disenfranchisment of locals from their land, destruction of local markets, etc. is the work of the IMF.

An IMF takeover of Ireland would be a political one. It would NOT do anything for the well-being of the Irish.

We spend a lot of time in Ireland and when they first joined the EU the country surged ahead with EU aid. Once the Eastern European countries joined the money went elsewhere. The surge was unsustainable,large homes were being built on every available plot of land. When the recession hit there was no one to buy these
Things are bad there but still a lot better than 30 years ago. However if we have any sense we will learn, their approach to the debt crisis was similar to that Cameron is now advocating for us. Pay cuts, lack of investment and government cut back in services, redundancies for public sector workers. It didn't work, things rapidly went down hill and with many losing their jobs or in fear of doing so, no one was prepared to spend.
Why doesn't Cameron just look across the Irish Sea to see what will happen here if he insists on persuing his policies?. In Ireland it was a joke about how the media and public went for Brown. They laughed saying "trust the Brits to go for their best leaders, they always do"
What is worse is that Cameron is pushing hard for Turkey to join the EU with all the expense that entails. They will qualify for subsidies, where is that money coming from ? But of course it is the usual Tory desire for cheap labour. It is a requirement of their party donors. If we think the Eastern Europeans worked for low wages it will be nothing to the Turks and they will be able to come to work as members of Europe

Actually Post no 8 has a point.

Who do all these countries owe money to? If they cannot pay, who will need to write it off? Isn't it better those agencies collapse rather than individual countries? Could someone please clarify?

The Irish thought they had won the lottery many years ago with all the money from the EU to buld new roads and ifrastruture, then the jobs were made by call centres and the like they also bent rules to have tax free zones for businesses for instance at Shannon airport the celtic tiger roared loudly, unfortunately they didn't see the trap that was set, when you are a member of the EU you can not control your own finaces and that was when it started to go wrong, they will really hurt when the EU force them to allow legal abortions, which they will.
They were then tricked into ratifying the Lisbon treaty stiking a blow at the UK.
I love the Irish, I spend a lot of time there and my grandparent were Irish, however, they have been dreadfully mislead and incredibly short sighted.

Eire-that bastion of economic dynamism and anti-Israeli prejudice! Well the first one's been proved a lie. Can we now hope the arrogant, facetious Irish media & politicians (locally and in the UN) spend their time dealing with their own problems instead of sticking their noses into Israels.

Eire asked for it, they embraced the EU with open arms, took everything they could get out of it , misled their people over the Lisbon treaty and now they will pay the price. The EU does not want losers in it's inner circle, Eire will be lucky if they do not end up in the same box as Greece on the dark edge of the EU.

Ireland which Ireland?!

18. At 4:07pm on 15 Nov 2010, Jack Napier wrote:
7. At 3:38pm on 15 Nov 2010, in_the_uk wrote:
.

But I dont want the people of the eurozone to suffer. I felt sorry for greece when the bone idle EU debated dropping them as a member. If the EU is incompetent (it is) it shouldnt be abandonning its members to pay the price.

------

Greeces former government cooked the national account books.

They lied both to the EU and their own bankers about the state of their economy over a period of years.

Thats the context in which their expulsion from the EU was being discussed. - If the former Greek government had come clean with the EU years ago then, arguably, their economy would never have been allowed to get into the state it did.

Yes, and the usual "the EU hasn't had its accounts signed off so must be corrupt" rhetoric will come up on here but the reason the auditors have concerns is because national governments can't properly account for how they disburse EU funds, not because the EU itself can't. Even the UK can't always properly account for how it disburses EU funds. And if national governments were held to the same accounting standards as the EU they would fail too. The UK has its problems: taxes not collected and written off, benefit overpayments written off, IT project overruns, CSA fiasco etc.

Which Ireland, Great Britains Ireland or "THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND?!"

You'd be sick as a pig if you were a German now. Having almost taken over the world, they thought it would be a good idea to just take over Europe - with their arch-conspirators the French. This would teach a lesson to the British (who they had both loathed for hundreds of years) that those who win the war do not necessarily win the peace. But now the Germans find their economic might means they have to bail out the countries in Europe who do not share their, err, 'highly driven' work ethic. And they have also flooded their country with immigrants because they did not have the work force to complete the economic miracle after the war. Still, its a beautiful country. I'm going camping in the Black Forest in May. Much better than the Highlands.

What next for the eurozone?
---------------------------
Sending a fat envelope to Cash 4 Gold is pretty much their last hope.

18. At 4:07pm on 15 Nov 2010, Jack Napier wrote:

Greeces former government cooked the national account books.

They lied both to the EU and their own bankers about the state of their economy over a period of years.

Thats the context in which their expulsion from the EU was being discussed. - If the former Greek government had come clean with the EU years ago then, arguably, their economy would never have been allowed to get into the state it did.

-----------------------

Bad on greece for doing that. But the EU really should have checked up on greece better. To cook the books so convincingly they must have only just fit the criteria to get in (after cooking) which shows the bar should be higher. But other countries were stuck too which is why the EU didnt want to bail them out (the domino effect).

So if the EU checked up on greece well enough then they could have avoided the mess. But kicking them out after letting them in (probably at great expense) is childish and sick.

Post 17 Confusciousfred wrote;
When will th EU publish the financial statement?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------Oh just recently they have been published, and true to form the situation is so bad the auditors refused to sign off the accounts for, wait for it, the 16th year in a row. Hows that for mismanagement and fraud, and we are talking about 100 billion-it`s budget, of yours and my money, 100 bil`on and noone knows how it is spent, and these eurocrats are baying to tax us directly as individuals, because of Camerons`s` rearguard settling for a 2.9% increase, (2.9% too high) and they are about to spend another 800 million on an unwanted building for e`crats, so it goes on, and like Greece, Southern Ireland is about to be cemented into the ever smiling eu comm`r President Jose Manuel Barroso`s Toytown.

4. At 3:08pm on 15 Nov 2010, Spinonthis wrote:
"...I just hope that the UK is not expected to contribute to the bail out(s) of these countries, we give enough to the EU without propping up the Euro. "

Well I'm afraid we are.
One of Alastair Darling's last acts was to sign the UK up to the Eurozone fund that Ireland (& others) will/may be bailed out from.
Our (or should I say the UK taxpayer's) share is c.£7bn.

As far as the EU political & bureaucratic elites are concerned, the Euro is sacrosanct - they will happily see the likes of Ireland & Greece go to the wall (and those who have to do the bailing out suffer too) so long as it saves the Holy Grail of monetary union.
Their answer to the problems will be calls for more 'harmonisation' - EU-speak for ever more centralised control over the economic policies of member states, together with 'federal' taxing powers (ie get ready for EU taxes on top of UK ones).

It will be interesting to see at what point Cameron's promised referendum lock kicks in when the Lisbon Treaty is ratcheted up to increase EU control over the member states. Plus, what happens in the countries expected to pay for it all. In the words of the song, I predict a riot, and a big one.

What next for the eurozone? Bankruptcy. The single currency was doomed to fail, just like the ERM. It cannot work because countries are so very different.

20. At 4:12pm on 15 Nov 2010, Stanley James Hawkins wrote:

What next for the Eurozone ? I am an enthusiastic Europhile, but I think the Eurozone will be going nowhere fast unless and until the EU does three things: 1: Continues the long-overdue reforms to its budgeting, auditing and general accountancy. 2: Abandons the purely symbolic and ridiculously expensive biennial headquarters relocation between Brussels and Strasbourg. 3: Tackles the endemic corruption, fraud and expenses abuse. When those are achieved the Eurozone can begin thinking about the much-needed reforms to the banking and financial systems and addressing the huge and ever-increasing gap between rich and poor. The Eurosceptics would soon be left whistling in the wind.
-----------------------------------------------------

Well looking at that little list Stanley, I guess if they were ever serious they would have made a start by now.
I mean, it's only 16 YEARS that they have failed to get their numbers signed off.
I reckon I'll be dead before I'm required to whistle into that wind.

"8. At 3:39pm on 15 Nov 2010, No Victim No Crime wrote:
Heres an idea every country is in debt so if every country refused to pay the debt what could anyone do? that's right NOTHING."
---------------------

Oh really? Who do you think are the main holders of Government debt?

Spinonthis wrote:
I am just glad we are not in it.
.
.
.
Yes, thats the only good news I'm afraid because they were locked into the Euro. Ireland couldn’t do the huge fiscal stimulus thing, they went straight for austerity and this was over 2 years ago!

The introduction of the Euro was just another huge scam, someone has made bucket loads of money out of it and it certainly wasn't the Greek or Irish. More will follow like skittles, all the countries that thought they'd be propped up by the rest of the European nations are now getting a reality check.

No more rants about this being noo-labour's fault now, please. It was all of them.

In answer to your first question I hope that the Euro fails and fails spectacularly as this is the main thrust of the Federalist EU in trying to capture and keep the present EU system. I am just pleased that while we have prolems with our last government's financial arrangements we are not coupled with the Euro.

As to bailing out the EU countries that is for the EU countries to decide, just as long as we in the UK are not asked to bailout the quite frankly dictatorial EU.

Require them to leave the Euro. Set an exchange rate to allow them to return to their own currencies.

They didn't comply with the eurozone 'rules' (not that they were alone in that) but their fiscal irresponsibility got them into the hole. Why should other more responsible countries have to dig them out?

As a German friend said to me: "Why should I have to work to 65 (or beyond) and pay significant amounts of my salary to Greece, so that Greeks can retire at 58?"

Ireland and Greece need to attract corporations to those countries for plant operations. Companies hire workers, pay business tax, and improve industry base. National debt will only decrease when economic activity makes a serious upward move.

It just goes to show who runs the system and who you have to keep happy - the speculators. Kudos to the Irish for telling the EU/IMF etc where to stick their money. Of course an option may be to take the money and either invest it themselves at a higher rate or loan it out to those who are not being helped by the institutions that are meant to provide loans - the banks.

22. At 4:22pm on 15 Nov 2010, Lucy Clake wrote:

"...However if we have any sense we will learn, their approach to the debt crisis was similar to that Cameron is now advocating for us. Pay cuts, lack of investment and government cut back in services, redundancies for public sector workers. It didn't work, things rapidly went down hill and with many losing their jobs or in fear of doing so, no one was prepared to spend.
Why doesn't Cameron just look across the Irish Sea to see what will happen here if he insists on persuing his policies?. ...
-----------------------------------------------------

A simple answer (and I'm sure I have answered you before on this but here goes again).
Ireland's currency is controlled by a bunch of rather unsympathic people in Frankfurt, who are not interested in devaluing the currency for Ireland's benefit.
Ireland is therefore expected to undergo a period of painful debt deflation, simply in order to be kept in a monetary union to which it is not best suited.
The UK's currency is controlled in London and may freely float versus other currencies to the overall short to medium term benefit of the UK's economy (although further out this may raise inflation of course).
Besides which, what was Ireland's alternative if they did not cut spending? To spend to anywhere near their previous amount they have to borrow - to borrow such amounts would have meant a spike in bond yields even bigger than now and quicker. All that would have happened is they would have been in the poorhouse even quicker, with no plan of action in place to reduce the debt.

Thank goodness we in Britain decided against switching currencies, and stayed independent of the Eurozone collapse.

Only a couple of years ago, we were Ireland's poor neighbour as it enjoyed what has turned out to be a very short-lived economic boom. Growth was too fast, and relied heavily on the Euro, and look at the state it's in now.

What next for the Euro Zone?......deep trouble for us all I think.
We can never go back to the 'good times' because it was all built on debt and blindness to the day when the debt would be called in.
Very few of the European countries will avoid a second, and much bigger, recession as all that's happened by bailing out the banks is that the cracks have been papered over.
Credit was the driving force behind any growth, that's how capitalism works, but short of committing financial suicide we cannot return to that method of lunacy...or will we?
There's a perfect storm heading our way so look out for trouble!

"
27. At 4:36pm on 15 Nov 2010, KingLeeRoySandersJr wrote:

Ireland which Ireland?!
"

The Ireland who were bullied in signing up to the Lisbon treaty in the vein hope that the EU member states in the Euro zone would come to their economic rescue.

"
43. At 5:09pm on 15 Nov 2010, Dustin83v wrote:

Ireland and Greece need to attract corporations to those countries for plant operations. Companies hire workers, pay business tax, and improve industry base. National debt will only decrease when economic activity makes a serious upward move.
"

Funny how the obvious makes sense.

If the EU wants the "EU countries" to take them seriously they should be audited each year, and live within their means.

The Euro is fatally flawed and all those in the UK should think themselves lucky that we're not part of it.

As for the UK helping to bail out Ireland - well, we're one of the few net contributors so I guess it'll happen whether we like it or not!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

43. At 5:09pm on 15 Nov 2010, Dustin83v wrote:

Ireland and Greece need to attract corporations to those countries for plant operations. Companies hire workers, pay business tax, and improve industry base. National debt will only decrease when economic activity makes a serious upward move.
-------------------------------------

....except that as a condition of any bailout, the French and Germans will apparently want Ireland to increase its 'too competitive' corp tax rate of 12.5%, which has long been a thorn in their side. This will have the opposite effect - drive businesses away from Ireland and who knows, French and German corp tax rates might not look so high after all.
Perish the thought that I should ever think the EU was run by France & Germany for France & Germany.

#35

The ERM did not fail, it was merely set up as an evaluation to see if it was possible for Eurozone countries to keep their curriency rates within a margin of just over 2% of each other, in preparation for the Euro.

Britian also joined it, but was forced out in the early 1990's after currency speculators including American billionaire George Soros, known then as "the man who broke the bank of England" bet against sterling remaining in the ERM, and making a profit of over 1 billion dollars in the process.

Well, personally I'm hoping for a good dose of protectionism. Where on earth does this idea that it will be bad for us come from? The only beneficiaries of free trade are China and India - we're exporting all our jobs there. Crank on the trade tarrifs and bring all those jobs back to Europe - yes, we will have to pay more for a lot of the unnecessary goods we buy every year, but we'll be reducing unemployment here and increasing our tax receipts.

We should negotiate bi-directional trade relationships, designed to balance trade and protect our economies rather than the "bread and circuses" economics of all western governments that encourages a false feel-good factor by allowing us to kit out our homes with dirt cheap Chinese manufactured bling.

"
46. At 5:20pm on 15 Nov 2010, milvusvestal wrote:

Thank goodness we in Britain decided against switching currencies, and stayed independent of the Eurozone collapse.
"

We're in the EU, just because we're not in the single currency does not mean we'll not have help bail it out.

Surely this must be Gordon Brown and Tony Blairs doing........??
Or do you mean other countries are also in this trouble !!

I'm not surprised that Ireland is in economic difficulties...but give them full marks for stating that they'd really like to sort out their problems with out assistance from the Euro Zone...if that occurs then their economy will be totally run from Brussels and should that happen who's next in the queue?
It's all very well for us to say that we are in a better state not to be in full part of the Euro as our currency...but that could have changed if Labour and Gordon Brown had won the election and as yet we are not really seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with the policies the Coalition Government brought in and I am not convinced that things would have been different if David Cameron had gone along with a Minority Government or that the Tories had won by a Landslide...
First it was Greece...then fingers were pointed at Portugal and Spain as being next in line for financial woes...now it's Ireland...who is next I wonder...the Financial Black-Clouds are not away from us yet...
One problem is that Socialism and Capitalism can not find the common ground to work together and so countries move from left to right and not always for the better...in Ireland's case I do hope they move towards the better sooner rather than later...if they can not sort it out then we can still be sucked in to Europe's problems and without being part of the Euro...

"
31. At 4:45pm on 15 Nov 2010, RubbishGirl wrote:

What next for the eurozone?
---------------------------
Sending a fat envelope to Cash 4 Gold is pretty much their last hope.
"

That's what Gordon Brown should have done instead of selling, I mean giving, it to the markets between 99-02.

Euro (not so long ago something which was supposed to replace US$ as a world reserve currency) is effectively dead.

Although it may take another year for even its staunchest aficionados to realize that.

Ireland is already a bankrupt according to leading Irish experts:


https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1108/1224282865400.html

"14. At 3:56pm on 15 Nov 2010, Total Mass Retain wrote:

Is the stability of the euro at risk?
Sure, you can expect sensible answers to that question from the armchair economists that frequent HYS."

As if professional economists have any better ideas....

I always wonder why economists and bankers get paid so much money when it is clear they have no special knowledge about our economic future.

"What action should be taken to solve the financial crisis in Greece and Ireland?"


Let them fail. Spain and Portugal - ditto.

And return to a European Community/Common Market original concept which degenerated into a failed Commissar-run superstate.

[Just like Soviet Union and Socialist Yugoslavia]

Germany should leave the Euro and let the rest go hang. No doubt our European masters will argue that closer integration is all we need to avert disaster.

13. At 3:55pm on 15 Nov 2010, presario wrote:
I am no expert but I have a feeling that the Euro is built upon false foundations i.e. very few, if any, satisfied the criteria required for membership...





Combine Protestant North with its relatively high work ethics (still) and a relatively low corruption level (still) with highly corrupted and inefficient lying liers from ClubMed countries into a single currency zone - and what do you get?


An unmitigated disaster.


Which should have been anticipated from the start but for hubris of leaders trying to create United States of Europe as a "counterbalance to the United States of America".


Well, chicken have finally come home to roost.

"
56. At 5:37pm on 15 Nov 2010, paul wrote:

Surely this must be Gordon Brown and Tony Blairs doing........??
Or do you mean other countries are also in this trouble !!
"

Had Labour been re-elected, we'd be out too with the begging bowl just like we were in 1976.

Still, all Governments of the past 12 years or so should be assumed of the way they have acted, Labour were not just the only ones, but they were as reckless as the worst of them.

What next for the eurozone? Send in Karen Brady to save the day!

The IRA didnt notice that whilst they where fighting for N.I the German/French axis annexed the rest of Ireland.

For the EU and the Euro to survive it must become the superstate they so desperately wanted with a central bank setting the budgets of each state within in it.

Yes,every country that committed to the Euro must accept loss of soveriegnty over their economies.

We Brits have not or never will accept the Euro so it gives us a great oppotunity to ditch the EU and strike out on are own.

To hell with rumpey pumpy,the Euro and the EU.

The answer is, No, there is no easy solution to this problem and I will not pretend to know the answer.

However I wonder how many anti-Europe rants we will see on here from people who claim to have all the answers?

A very sad state of affairs for ALL those in the EuroZone ..

Other currencies within the EU should not be expected to bailout the Euro .IF you can remember Why those countries didn't jion the euro zone in the first place was >>>>wait .for ...it ...Steady.. Because they truly didn't believe in the Euro Furthermore they did not want to bail out when it went rotten..., ,Therefore and let us keep out from bailing out the debt ridden Euro .. Simply ..Those that were in it ...must bin it!!!At Their expense not ours

The Eurozone needs to be careful - it could easily collapse. Whilst it has been made strong by Germany and France, it has been seriously undermined by the socialist governments of Greece, Spain and Portugal who have increased their country's debt by staggering amounts. Forget the Lisbon Treaty - if the EU is to have a constitution it needs to include laws forcing its members to have a balanced budget.
Posted by the editor of the iBLOG

Typical. I said it from the start that the EU is only as strong as it's poorest members. We've had Greece, Ireland is crumbling and now Portugal.

It's not like we are made of money, why should we subsidise other countries financial ineptitude? We have enough of our own bankers doing that.

The government continues to cut back spending across the board, yet refuses to mention the elephant in the room. At £45m a day, if we were to pull out of Europe today, we would be clear of fiscal debt within four years.
WE ARE NOT A CHARITY! We need to get the hell out of Europe NOW!

I love Europe but hate the EU with a vengeance. The sooner the whole lot of the corrupt, socialist pile of rubbish falls and we can get back to nations working and trading together for the common good the better.

Socialism certainly does have a lot to answer for.

Could there be a connection between the Irish bailout talks and recent visit of European commissioner Olli Rehn's recent visit to Ireland to hold talks with their finance minister?.

65. At 5:53pm on 15 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
56. At 5:37pm on 15 Nov 2010, paul wrote:

Surely this must be Gordon Brown and Tony Blairs doing........??
Or do you mean other countries are also in this trouble !!
"

Had Labour been re-elected, we'd be out too with the begging bowl just like we were in 1976.

Still, all Governments of the past 12 years or so should be assumed of the way they have acted, Labour were not just the only ones, but they were as reckless as the worst of them.
**********************************
Thank Goodness the Tories never got us into trouble, stock market crashes, currency falling, negative equity
They are much to clever for that.....
No need to worry though by the time Dave and Cleggy have finished we will have been outsourced to another country.
Has he tried selling off the poor yet ?? Surely they can be privatised "!!

“Is the stability of the euro at risk?”

The Euro is already unstable. Have the BBC not noticed the wild swings in bond prices?

Let us forget,for the moment anyway,that the EU is one of the most bureaucratic,corrupt,self serving and wasteful institutions known to man,led by political irrelevancies who enrich themselves at the taxpayers expense.Just as bad are the politicians in the member states who do nothing to stop the appalling waste and financial profligacy that is the European Union. Where else,aside from the EU,would you find such an enormous institution which,year after year,cannot get it's accounts past the auditors? The EU makes the folk at ENRON look like positive amateurs.
The Eurozone is a financial non starter.It attempts to keep economies of vastly differing sizes,complexity and efficiency,tied to the same currency when all these countries have different fiscal/ monetary policies.Euro countries cannot devalue their own currencies,cannot alter interest rates and cannot print money.These options are necessary and need to be available to countries,as has been happening in the UK with "quantative easing",when these countries are trying to come out of a recession. It is well known that some countries fiddled their national accounts in order to join the Euro,Greece being the foremost example and that country is now being bailed out by the Germans,French et al.I bet the French just love doing that which is probably why their retirement ages have just been increased.Ireland will follow,Italy and Portugal not far behind.Heaven knows what the Eastern European memeber states are up to.
The Euro should be consigned to the dustbin of history,along with all the EU politicians,at the earliest opportunity.It was bad enough when Neil Kinnock went to Brussells,but then his wife as well.
If this lot were in China they would be shot.

It's high time the euro was scrapped. It does nothing for stability if Ireland, Greece and Portugal are caused such pain, and Germany & France are suffering too because they have to bail out the rest. What a mess.
Let's re-establish national currencies and put control back in the hands of national governments. And at the same time hand back all the other powers that the EU has grabbed over the years.
Then maybe we can have what we actually voted for, which is a free trade zone - nothing more. Bad news for the thousands of EU officials busy eating up our national wealth, that's just tough.

Is the EU doing enough?

NO, EU governance is part of the problem, slow, lumbering and befuddled with old false logic and of course the self serving gravy trains.

If the EU did not exists and exchange rate fixes and inter country trade arrangements had flourished, we would be a lot better off, because we would have done away with the massively oversized dumb governance at home and in the EU long ago.

63. At 5:51pm on 15 Nov 2010, John Charlton wrote:
Germany should leave the Euro and let the rest go hang. No doubt our European masters will argue that closer integration is all we need to avert disaster.
------------------
Closer integration IS the disaster! Nations with little in common can never form a workable unitary federation. Remember Yugoslavia? The USSR? Time to stop this absurd experiment in mega-socialism.

Why is it so blindingly obvious to us 'armchair economists' that ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL...
I feel for the Irish - they were taken in by the hype - and in the good times it really worked for them. Now they are totally stuck - unable to devalue or vary their interest rate - because all of that is controlled from Frankfurt.
The one good thing that Broon did was to keep us out of the euro - otherwise - make no mistake - there, but for the grace of God, go us...

In the beginning there were people...
Then came the tribes and clans that later evolved into nations...
Then these united into monetary and currency zones...

But there were still problems...
These new groupings fought with one another or collapsed under their the weight of their own stupidity...

Anyone care to continue the story?

Oh dear, next I hope that the Eurozone will be no more, and we'll be free from the risk of a future Labour government selling us out into the Euro. Still, at least now we'll be free from all these crazy euro-regulations and their meddlesome insistance on following a Human Rights system which appears to penalise anyone working within the law to make their living at the expense of the feckless scrounging layabouts and immigrants!

Oops, Sorry! Haha! no! guess what, Brown's already sold us out about that, no doubt we're going to be picking up the tab for Greece Spain and Ireland and any other EUseless country, and I bet when the boots on the other foot we don't see any of the same support? No, of course not.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The Euro Zone, European Union and the European Commision have all failed, they were a gravy train for bigotted politicians and beaurocrats, paid for by the hard working tax payer who incidentally has not benefitted one iota from there formation.
Scrap all three and lets return back to the days when we were proud of our Motherland...not ashamed to be in the debacle that calls its self Europe!

Why,Oh Why Oh Why are we still in this abmoninable entity
laughingly called "The European UNION"?????
This country was sold down the river a long time ago by
the treachery of edward heath,but still no politician has
the balls to say "enough is enough" and get us out of this
god-awful mess that only seems to enrich countless mep's,
civil servants and the people who cheat and obtain massive
amounts of the money that we in the U.K. have to pay to the
monstrocity.
I really despair at the way we are heading--nobody deserves
to be treated like this year after year.
Get out of this"union" now and see if we can save some pride!

More Elton John concerts.

LISTEN TO US, YOU POLITICIANS. GET US OUT OF THE EU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

85. At 7:16pm on 15 Nov 2010, david williams wrote:
'Why,Oh Why Oh Why are we still in this abmoninable entity
laughingly called "The European UNION"?????'
-----
because people like you would whine when your living standards plummet through the floor when the UK leaves.

Which is why all main parties are not going to leave the EU: it's that straghtforward.

"What next for the eurozone" - this HYS question relates to news reports on the Republic of Ireland.

Can we assume that RoI is the latest victim of roaming Bond managers 'leaking' a crisis in the hope the IMF or European Central Bank (ECB)will step in, roll-up and restructure the debt to improve Bond returns to the Bond managers by an assured repayment cash flow?

The old banking terminology is a 'revolving loan'. In other words, if you can't meet your current loan instalments, you bundle them together (including the interest already owed on current loans)for a new loan which = paying new interest on existing interest plus the new capital lent. Sound familiar? That's what Bond markets do to coutries, globally.

Naturally, this has nothing to do with nervous currency speculators after the recent G20?

Europe's Pigs: Country by country

A link at the bottom of the Beeb's question.
Just to save you going there, its doesn't refer to MEP's.

At 5:33pm on 15 Nov 2010, Desmond wrote:


The ERM did not fail, it was merely set up as an evaluation to see if it was possible for Eurozone countries to keep their curriency rates within a margin of just over 2% of each other, in preparation for the Euro.

Britian also joined it, but was forced out in the early 1990's after currency speculators including American billionaire George Soros, known then as "the man who broke the bank of England" bet against sterling remaining in the ERM, and making a profit of over 1 billion dollars in the process.

_____________________________________________________

I lived through those times and I always had an interest in finance.

I remember in particular the financial battle of strength between the currency speculators led by George Soros and the Bank of England.

Eventually the currency speculators forced the bank of england to a point where it could no longer defend sterling's exchange rate in the ERM and so Britian left the mechanism, and George Soros to all intents and purposes stole the sterling equivalent of over 1 billion dollars from the British taxpayer.


Perhaps the reason we don't hear much these days about George Soros's sordid past as a ruthless currency speculator, is because he is now a major financial supporter of far-left organisations in America including the media and the Democratic party itself.

Ever since joining the EU Ireland has been a net taker. It built the much vaunted "Celtic Tiger" economy on EU hand outs, and thought that the gravy train would last forever. Now it looks like they expect the money tap to be opened even frther, to keep up the standards they have become used to.

Ireland was conned into joining both the EU and the euro and will now have to pay the price.

The UK should leave the EU now, and not pay one penny more into that corupt festering self destructing organisation, as a net contributor we can no longer afford the luxury of membership.

If Currencies become meaningless we will surely have to return to bartering.

The Obama Admin must allow Ireland and Greece to freely import technology from American companies. Democratic Congress severely restricted export of tech commodities due to terror concerns. Those nations will significantly improve their developed industrial businesses for world markets.

What a lot of right wing rot a lot of posters are talking.

This is not a simple question of "one" nation against another, but a financial system gone horribly wrong. Haven't you noticed the riots in France, Germany (anti"nuclear") UK (students), Greece and more to come . One common denominator, the poor are getting shafted and will hit out at anyone, and it doesn't really matter what the trigger is.

Those that are trying to suggest the "breakup" of this or that don't seem to realise that the BEST way out is to stick together - no matter what. The "enemy" are the out of control Financial Funds, the filthy rich and TBTK Banks (Too Big To Keep). (The four richest people in the world, together have more than the combined revenue of the 10 poorest countries - and you don't think they use it to steal even more?)

Shades of the Tea Party - going against their own best interests because they are lapping up the sops that the ultra-rich feed them.
What is responsible for unemployment benefits, generalised health services, pensions, - those bits of past Government actions that are called "Social" benefits. What is wrong with them except they don't go far enough?

In real socialist countries, the poor automatically had a place to live, a job (or occupation) and food and water. How many people sleep in the streets in the West nowadays? Even Cuba has a better system of treating it's ordinary prisoners than the US at the moment.

So France and Germany are worrying about Ireland? At least they CARE about the people in Ireland. Where is Camerons support?
+++
The following really deserves a reply.
*25. At 4:25pm on 15 Nov 2010, bunchofhypocrites wrote: "Can we now hope the arrogant, facetious Irish media & politicians (locally and in the UN) spend their time dealing with their own problems instead of sticking their noses into Israels."

It is the DUTY of everyone to "stick their noses into" injustice. The Irish have had 700 years of fighting it against all odds (and against the "Empire" on which the sun never set - until it did). Why should they stop now?

This is not down to Ireland, Greece, the Eurozone or any other organisation caught up in this financial con. The true cause is Capitalism and the unregulated free market system. The same system we are all forced to accept. We the people of the world are all being forced into a debt which is virtualy unpayable.

This is not State against State but Bankers and their puppet world leaders against the people of the world. The invisible third world war with domination and oppression, the catalyst as always. Megolomaniacs, the age old human problem of greed and control. When will they learn?


Putting the greedy in charge of the money is like using paedophiles as teachers. It will always lead to abuse.

I have no idea what the economic answer is, but the global problems with the free market as an economic doctrine, which has served a few for a long time, just shows that it doesn't work wholly on it's own and a mixture of state and private is the only way, but with the public taking a little more of the benefit. If the banking sector are going to rely on the Treasuries of the countries involved to bail them out whenever they get in a spot of bother, then it's only right that those institutions contribute more to ease the public burden.

Reading and listening to our politicans, like Batt O'Keffe, telling us that our Sovereignty must not be compromised, is a total and utter joke. Only two years ago Irish people were told to be 'patriotic' and stop shopping in the north of Ireland. When are these politicans going to stop living in Irish Civil War politics mode, and wake up and acknowledge that they have made a complete and utter mess of our economy.

We (the Irish) are at the behest of the Germans. They are the ones who lent us the money in the first place, and they are the ones who now control the euro via the ECB. What is best for the interests of Germany is what drives the interests of the ECB.

This current debt crisis was fuelled by a recent article in The Irish Times by a man who predicted a few years back that we could not sustain our spending habits. He was promptly told to shut up by the current government!! None of our governnment ministers come from a business/economic background. They are completely out of touch with the current youth of Ireland,a generation that has been brought up on Facebook, Twitter, Google, et al. For most of the youth of Ireland, it's about jobs and how much money they have in their pockets.

Our political system is full of crony, corrupt politicans and needs to change to help solve this problem. Our current government is incapable of doing this. After all it is holding onto power due to the vote of a tax evader!

What next for the eurozone?

British money, I should imagine.

"
74. At 6:18pm on 15 Nov 2010, paul wrote:

65. At 5:53pm on 15 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
56. At 5:37pm on 15 Nov 2010, paul wrote:

Surely this must be Gordon Brown and Tony Blairs doing........??
Or do you mean other countries are also in this trouble !!
"

Had Labour been re-elected, we'd be out too with the begging bowl just like we were in 1976.

Still, all Governments of the past 12 years or so should be assumed of the way they have acted, Labour were not just the only ones, but they were as reckless as the worst of them.
**********************************
Thank Goodness the Tories never got us into trouble, stock market crashes, currency falling, negative equity
They are much to clever for that.....
No need to worry though by the time Dave and Cleggy have finished we will have been outsourced to another country.
Has he tried selling off the poor yet ?? Surely they can be privatised "!!
"

Lawson was a terrible chancellor, Norman Lamont was major's puppet, and little more than an imbecile, but Brown beat them hand's down. Labour have no excesses for failing to learn from the mistakes the Tories made. Labour's truly mad polices have left us with something which will not be paid for in my live time. Labour relied on fuelling personal debt which caused people to turn a blind eye to their gun-ho wrecking of the economy and the social structure of the nation.

I wish we could sell the useless people, from the failed bankers and corrupt politicians to the bone idle, maybe for firewood or something else useful.