Do trade agreements provide value for local economies?

The Chinese are now Bankers to the US, so I wouldn't rock the boat vis-a-vis the Chinese. Obama simply couldn't pump US$600 billion into the US economy with nothing to show for it: it is called printing money! At the very least, the Chinese provide solid goods!

if china stoped cheating the system maybe america wouldnt need to pump all the extra money in, china is interesting only in itself while the west is following the stick together method and that cannot work unless china signs up aswell as it is such a big player in trade now. things would not be as bad if china played fairly but they are not and will not. so our recovery will be much slower but we will get there in the end just keep the faith!

More excuses for junkets, especially as no-one ever seems to comply with what they agree at these things anyway.

They're seemingly more interested in the loopholes they can exploit than the spirit of any agreement.

Trade only works properly if it's a two-way thing. You buy some of our stuff, we'll buy some of yours. The Chinese don't operate this way. They're happy to sell to people, but they don't buy in return. They undercut everybody else because they exploit their own people and don't stick to the same safety, welfare or environmental legislation that Western countries follow. Thus the playing field isn't remotely level. The West needs to stop buying from them or else the flow of money is all one way. Continuing to prop up their economy will only weaken our own, but by the time the greedy businessmen wake up to this, it will be too late.

Yes! and No!

Yes! Because it helps bring about the flow of goods around the world that means there will be something that we need from elsewhere where we can not provide it locally...sadly that also can bring about a negative side of...

No! Because some of these so-called treaties between countries or blocs of countries can mean goods we are hopeful for get delayed or cancelled and there is also the more probable part that some fear to purchase certain goods because it belittles those 'Fair Trade' countries in being able to sell goods and earn well earned cash because someone wants the goods for peanuts and the Third World suffers even more...

What is certain to occur is that countries like China will do deals that they will benefit from...so will the US...the UK...and the EU...

But don't worry...they'll have another go on these matters in another year or so...to show that they do want to cooperate...Yeah! Right...

All's fair in love and war.

Perhaps Global trade should be in Yuan?

The US controls prices by their currency, what's going to happen when that stops?

USA had the monopoly of weapon trade, China and other countries will gradually manufacture their own, then what will USA sell?

If you don't like the trade differential, easy, don't buy the goods, dont send your own manufacturing to China, make it at home. Like most Western countries we have had our time, it's either compete or get out of the market.

Do trade agreements provide value for local economies?

What, like the agreement where India will open its markets to EU trade and in return the UK will take another quarter of a million Indian IT workers, thus condemning the same number of British citizens to the dole, during these economic times. Sheer genius.

It doesn`t matter what trade agreements countries take part in, if it`s the difference between sinking or swimming economically they will use protectionism every time, which is why China is allegedly manipulating the Yuan and the US is using QE to artificially devalue the dollar.

Interesting that now China is an sizeable economic force, the western countries are getting ichy feet. Previously they didnt care.

China has every right to run its country and economy how it likes in the same way we have done in the west. Britain never cared about Human rights of the countries it ran in the name of imperialism.

The real problem is china produces goods at a far lower cost than the UK. UK consumers always target the cheaper options. Unless British workers accept lower pay and conditions, Britain will always be uncompetitive.

Countries may think globally but that does mean they have global interests at heart.

As an example, presidents and other politicians of the USA are voted into power by (some of) the US citizens. The global activity that we see coming from the USA is simply an acceptance that the rest of the world 'has to be dealt with': it's not that the politicians who are involved are actually concerned about meeting the needs of voters in other countries. Why would they be? This is so obvious.

On the military side, the USA talks about a peace process in the Middle East, but it is tacitly, and for its own ends, involved in backing the Israeli side of the conflict. Things are no different as regards trade and commerce: behind the rhetoric, there are only politicians seeking to further their own country's ends and thereby, their own political power.

(The USA is cited purely as a working and well-known example to illustrate the 'global' principle).

Trade agreements, which interestingly enough run contrary to all the 'free market' principles that so many so-called capitalists like to promote, are nothing more than countries seeking to create commercial allies in order that they have more clout than other countries that are excluded from the deals.

International commerce is a battle ground and the cheap goods that are in the shops come at a price that is paid by the not-so-wealthy and not-so-powerful nations. Most of the trade deals that make the news come from the G20 (money rules) and effectively cement the power-rules aspect of the status quo.

So... to answer the question in the context in which I think it was intended... yes, trade deals provide value for [certain already developed] local economies.

However, it's worth noting that the best value ever provided to local economies came from the slave trade... a commerce that horrifically de'valued' innocent humans.

BBC: please come out of your mind set - 'value' and 'money' and not synonyms... even if it is but a minority of people that can make the distinction.

2. At 12:54pm on 11 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
re-China cheating the system!
-------
Lol, when the West cannot compete they cry foul! We was robbed! They can't get away with it this day & age because their opponents are no longer spear or bow & arrow natives!

Trade agreements (or restrictions) rarely help ordinary people anywhere in the world - they are devised, signed and implemented under the heavy supervision of ultra-rich international companies, particularly money-lenders.

Trade Summits would be valuable if Britain had something to trade.

Thatcher destroyed British industry but Call Me Dave will fix everything so don't worry folks every silver cloud has a Tory in it.

No, the object of these agreements are for the benefit of large corporations and has been previously mentioned, for the loopholes that can be gained.

Even when agreements are in place the U.S. manufacturers ignore them when not in their favour. Vis-a-vis the twenty year squabble over softwoods.

The meaningful jobs are shipped off-shore and the only jobs left are to sell the stuff through big-box stores

I migrated to Canada as a journeyman machinist, over thirty years ago. Why does Canada entice people with skills like this, when they do not have the infrastructure to support them?

It's all part of someone's, new world order .....

11. At 1:40pm on 11 Nov 2010, ian cheese wrote:

2. At 12:54pm on 11 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
re-China cheating the system!
-------
Lol, when the West cannot compete they cry foul! We was robbed! They can't get away with it this day & age because their opponents are no longer spear or bow & arrow natives!


---------

after your 1st post i thought you were an idiot but not worth the effort to correct however as you have now annoyed me by trying to act clever ill put you right.

china is cheating by keeping there exchange rates low ON PUROPSE a practise which nobody else does.
there doing this because they know they can make money out of it (greed).
its not jelousy etc its common sense even the bow and arrow natives had that, it appears that you have none of which just an attitude problem in thinking you know it all and anybody elses opinion is wrong no matter what the evidence. there are too many people like you on HYS that spoil it please do us a favour and offer yourself up for a crash test dummy, you might actually be useful for once then

Areements on trade don't provide anything other than give a bunch of world leaders another excuse for an all expenses paid couple of days out. I'm sick of seeing Gobby Obama postulating as if he's the man of the moment. The best agreement for Britain would be for us to manufacture our own goods and buy ourselves what we manufacture. Talking of manufacture, this recession like all others was manufactured to assett strip Mr & Mrs Ordinary, who in turn don't sell off their family silver to foreign companies, and don't transfer their business's abroad so that they can make a bigger profit. The world should beware, we ship our product production to China, we buy billions of pounds of products from China and where does that money go? Got it, in their governments coffers, government money buys arms. God help us all if China becomes a power as large as America and their military expands, China then could well think of expanding beyond it's own borders. The greedy bosses of multi-nationals may then realise what a mess they've made in pursuit of their desire to control us.

4. At 1:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, LippyLippo wrote:
re-Chinese manufacturing
-------------
The point surely is that the greatest investors in the Chinese manufacturing industries are to be found in the West! eg. Walmart. So, where is the rub? The West is happy in being able to produce what they want to sell through a highly disciplined & compliant workforce at pittance wages! The Chinese do not complain, mind you!

Trade agreements have only ever benefited the richer countries in the past and quite simply we have blown it so its time to move over for the newest big guns on the market....ie china,india,brazil to mention a few and see how they handle it.Personally though i do not for one minute believe the American ego will allow any chance of the greenback becoming second to any other currency especially the yuan.End result will probably be the slow destruction of other economies by even more quantative easing weakening the dollar or the easier option.......WAR!There is always plenty of cash to be made going down that line.Watch out North Korea and Iran as you could be the answer to the problem.

I am constantly amazed by the stupidity of most HYS questions.

Start here: https://www.iie.com/publications/papers/paper.cfm?ResearchID=271 and get back to me when you have even the basics of an understanding of the value of world trade.

And--more to the point--the dangers of protectionism.

"Do trade agreements provide value for local economies"?

Well, let's hope we can keep this polite.

Leaders and politicians of countries whose only focus is on production for export and deny, or make it difficult for others to import? All countries are guilty of that and the WTO are very lazy indeed.

Leaders of certain known countries with corrupt governments who take enormous amounts of aid - yet those corrupt officials get paid again by allowing 'unofficial' forest destruction and mining rights.

Naturally, we all know this, yet continue to contribute to charities who appear to be impotent and rushing around and putting out fires rather than solving them.

So, can we all safely assume that ALL Leaders of ALL countries are equally complicent in letting down their own ordinary, working and law-abiding people?

We have UNICEF, WTO, World Bank, IMF, UN, EU, UAS etc., etc. the list is endless and costing BETWEEN THEM trillions of wasted hours every year, never mind the blasted waste of money. Just a thought.

13. At 1:44pm on 11 Nov 2010, ziggyboy wrote:

Trade Summits would be valuable if Britain had something to trade.

Thatcher destroyed British industry but Call Me Dave will fix everything so don't worry folks every silver cloud has a Tory in it.

The manufacturing industry started it's decline well before Margaret Thatcher came to power and accelerated after she left.

It's the decay of local economies (town and county level) over decades that give us so little strength and stability now.

This problem has been largely created by Government, just a few examples...

1. Low pay eg: the top rate of agricultural pay for a top level business manager is £19K (agricultural wages board) in industry and commerce for comparable skill it's typically £35 to 65K.

2. Supermarkets and food processors taking 75% of the price of food, in effect causing a decline in local ecconomies.

3. The explosion in unoccupied second homes effectively removing the local population from local traders.

4. Very poor planning.

The list is endless...

15. At 1:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
calling others an idiot
------
Thank you for your compliment. Confucius say: there are many forms of idiocies, hor, & you think you lucky you escape from being idiot! Double lucky!

Trade summits are relevant as long as the participating countries are genuinely transparent and realise that in this globalized world protectionism is a real bane. Manipulation of currencies is unethical though it is sad to note that the leaders of too many countries think in their narrow national interests. World leaders should address global imbalances especially in relation to economic growth. Some countries run up huge surpluses and intervene in the currencey markets to maintain their currency advantage. This is the crux of the debate with China!

19. At 2:01pm on 11 Nov 2010, MellorSJ wrote:
15. At 1:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
re-keeping currency low
-----
If only ya could ya would! Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do trade agreements provide value for local economies? Globalisation is the biggest threat to the world's economy EVER! It allows multinational corporations to asset strip nations of their labour, resources and seeks only to drive down labour costs and increase profit - at any cost. Many of the corrupt 3rd world countries are quite happy allow this exploitation, because the corrupt dictators are well rewarded, at the expense of the people, by the multinational corporations.

I'm pro trade, pro capitalism but anti exploitation. I want trade to be fair an equal for all. Let quality win over cheap, wasteful rubbish, always. However people in the west like paying low prices for substandard, poor quality, throw away goods, so the problem is not just the all powerful multinational corporations and the money lenders, it's us as well.

scottywhatever writes: "after your 1st post i thought you were an idiot but not worth the effort to correct however as you have now annoyed me by trying to act clever ill put you right.

china is cheating by keeping there exchange rates low ON PUROPSE a practise which nobody else does."

Nobody else does, eh? And what the heck do you think QE2 is? A considered plan to inflate and devalue the dollar.

"there doing this because they know they can make money out of it (greed)."

I see. The desire to make money and look after yourslef is now considered greed.

"its not jelousy etc its common sense even the bow and arrow natives had that, it appears that you have none of which just an attitude problem in thinking you know it all and anybody elses opinion is wrong no matter what the evidence. there are too many people like you on HYS that spoil it please do us a favour and offer yourself up for a crash test dummy, you might actually be useful for once then"

Do me a favour and take a copy of this thread. Look back on this twenty years, and tell me what you think.

More likely, you'll want to find the nearest bolt hole and hide for a decade.

The trade agreements can be beneficial to both parties as long as there are no back-room deals that are not open, otherwise countries mask various programs under which they help their farmers, manufacturers etc to gain unfair advantages while exporting, or to keep the prices of goods produced artificially low. Agreements are like roads, the implementation of the agreements is like the road traffic, obedience for the laws for use of the roads are what keeps every motorist in check, those who break the laws need to be punished punitively, so we need fair and open minded court that will take the case and help resolve the differences. Without any agreements there would be chaos and greed leading to destruction of many economies by the mighty.

"Unless British workers accept lower pay and conditions, Britain will always be uncompetitive."

True, but unfortunately the cost of living in this country means that workers here can never accept lower pay. Not until house prices, rents, food, fuel, goods, etc, all come drastically down.

24. At 2:22pm on 11 Nov 2010, Pancha Chandra wrote:
re-China's dominance in the Currency markets, etc.
-------------
Oh my goodness gracious me!
We all have a stake in China producing home-based technological goods eg. Computers, etc., cheaply. After all, most of them are produced under licence from Westermn Companies! In all our attacks on China we seem to have forgotten one simple fact: we cannot have our cake & eat it!

Graphis wrote: "True, but unfortunately the cost of living in this country means that workers here can never accept lower pay. Not until house prices, rents, food, fuel, goods, etc, all come drastically down."

And the way to do that is to reduce tax rates, unnecessary paperwork, taxes on jobs, and all the jobsworths we pay for who add nothing but grit into wheels of commerce.

27. At 2:25pm on 11 Nov 2010, MellorSJ wrote:
re-China not a Cheat
-----------
Aye, well spoken bros! If China goes, we 'ave nofin!

Nothing to say but heading to the worst and the China-US conflict may escalate.

29. At 2:35pm on 11 Nov 2010, Graphis wrote:
re-Costly Britain
---------
Brother, many come to the UK & are prepared to put up with terrible privations to achieve a living & a sizeable proportion succeed beyond their dreams through sheer hard graft. Many British Employers prefer these hard working foreigners. It is simply our fault for being laid back & allow the fear of work to do us down. We cannot, in all honesty, blame anyone.

Why are we now pontificating at China because its economy is booming and it has weathered the recession and come out the other end in a far stronger state than anyone else? If China chooses to adjust its currency to boost exports then so be it. We must COMPETE, not make vaccuous threats. But competition is impossible, because we spend too much of our revenue bailing out corrupt and parasitic banks and financial institutions instead of investing in our manufacturing industries.
And if China does not bow to US overtures? Will Mr Obama follow his predecessor's lead and go headlong in there? I doubt it! Its not going to be long before China looks down on us as 3rd World economies!

33. At 2:45pm on 11 Nov 2010, Bella Liberty wrote:
re-fear of US & China conflict
--------
Believe me, they are indebted to one another!

Ian cheese missed two words: "Brother, many come to the UK & are prepared to put up with terrible privations to achieve a living & a sizeable proportion succeed beyond their dreams through sheer hard graft. Many British Employers prefer these hard working foreigners. It is simply our fault for being laid back & allow the fear of work to do us down. We cannot, in all honesty, blame anyone."

They are: But ourselves.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"Do trade agreements provide value for local economies"? is still the HYS question.

Stand by my posts on this question. Plus, recommend post 26 @ 2:23pm on 11 November - 'Kuradi Vitukar'.

However, there is still the depressing and strong possibility of the 'MellorSJ' and their regular and recognised chums who will, no doubt, hijack this debate with the usual stream of ... personal insult interaction rather than genuine input?

37. At 3:06pm on 11 Nov 2010, MellorSJ wrote:
Ian cheese missed two words: "Brother, many come to the UK & are prepared to put up with terrible privations to achieve a living & a sizeable proportion succeed beyond their dreams through sheer hard graft. Many British Employers prefer these hard working foreigners. It is simply our fault for being laid back & allow the fear of work to do us down. We cannot, in all honesty, blame anyone."

They are: But ourselves.
----
Aye, thank you for yr. input brother!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Trade Agreements usually only benefits the multinational companies. Local businesses can't compete and we are left with places that can't even feed themselves with local produce.
Statistics will highlight the new jobs created but they fail to mention the jobs are minimum wage and the people lose any access to the local social net, and in the end, will be worse off.
The local economy will become reliant on these big businesses and will bow to their pressures, like extended tax breaks, exemption from laws (usually labour, health, or environment), etc.

Trade agreements are definitely not green, that's for sure. As I understand it, we export as many tonnes of tomatoes to Spain as Spain exports to us. Keeps the cash moving but a bit idiotic in terms of the environment.

As far as the G20 goes, the US hasn't a leg to stand on, deliberately weakening the $ to increase export advantage. Not much use lecturing China on floating its currency when it can do something like that. That's before we get to America's protectionist tariffs.
This G20 will end up like all the rest. Once the mud-slinging stops it'll all be sorted out in generalities and wish lists with no detail of any use.

It must be a really nice jolly to be a finance minister or head of a central bank, out there partying the whole time knowing that nothing of consequence will emerge.

Trade is primarily a bilateral matter.A country may have many trade partners, but it is always concerned about economy and profitability in its deals with its trade partners.A country cannot always expect to have advantage in terms of trade with each of its partners.Of course, a country's felt needs determine the composition and direction of its trade.
In these days of globaliztion, fierce competition prevails in the world of trade.Nevrtheless,trade summits may still be relevant for creating a level playing field for both the developed and developing countries.Summits may help reduce trade imbalances.Generalized System of Preferences and Generalized System of Trade Preferences should be provided to the developing countries to enable them to increase their exports.Buying cheap and selling more should not be the only considerations in international trade as that may result in risking all one's eggs in one basket.Countries should think globally in so far as this protects their national interests.Countries need to import and export according to their comparative advantage.Protectionism does not pay in the these days of globalization as the aggrieved trade partners can then legitimately resort to countervailing duties and anti-dumping measures.
No,governments should not be allowed to manipulate their currencies as this is resorted to increase exports by way of artificial competition.The fair practice should be free exchange of currencies accoding to market mechanism.Too much manipulation of currencies may lead to currency wars hampering global trade. Besides, if a country goes on manipulating its currency all the time, it may one day destroy its own currency.All countries should follow the IMF regulations.

There are fears that the G20 meeting in Seoul could descend into a row between the US and China about so-called "currency wars" and trade imbalances. Yep, this is where the Americans would like the G20 to go. They most certainly do not want to talk about the 600B in Q.E., or real financial reform - the type that can put a net on the Wall-Street Boys.
Ahead of the meeting, US President Barack Obama urged leaders to work together for global economic recovery. How hypocritical! The very worst thing the Americans could have done is what they have done: released the dirtiest possible economic bomb called Q.E. 2.
The sad part for the American people is that Q.E.2 will not work any better than bail-outs or TARP. All Q.E. 2 will do is artificially inflate stock market prices, giving the appearance of economic recovery when in fact it's making hay for Wall-Street Boys (without creating jobs or affecting the trade imbalance).
Obama: "In a prudent, stable way, we want to make sure that we are boosting growth rates at home as well as abroad." I guess this why Germany, China, Brazil, etc all object that the Americans are playing yet another game of artificial manipulation. Germany went as far as to call the Q.E.2 "clueless".
It likely has occurred to the world that the United States always has someone else to blame: Washington says that Beijing is manipulating its currency to help boost Chinese exports, which has led to Beijing amassing huge foreign reserves.
Not true!
The large imbalance in trade between China and America has been caused by the United States shipping its dirty, coal-using, productive industries to China; it then must buy the completed product. Meanwhile at home, the factory or production jobs are not available, and people who want the products must buy "made in China".
Is this China's fault...or the lack of foresight by the United States?
China has done nothing as seriously, potentially harmful as the US with its creation of more and more money - coming off printing presses, with each dollar becoming worth-less than the former. This is what you call "currency" manipulation!
The president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, said there were "definitely tensions" over currency...One has to be wary of the tensions because you don't want them to slip into protectionism."
Can the US slip into protectionism?
No, it can't.
Why?
Because it shipped primary production and factory jobs to countries that could produce the goods more cheaply; thereore the American people have a demand for these products that are no longer manufactured in the United States.
What Q.E. 2 will do is create inflation in the United States because each dollar-printed is worth-less than the preceding dollar.
Mr Obama is due to hold one-on-one talks with Chinese President Hu Jintao and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, but these talks have a snow-ball's chance in H... of convincing these economically-proficient countries that Q.E. 2 is the right way to go.
Obama is calling on countries not to rely on exports to pull them out of their economic problems, but isn't this exactly what he's trying to do with the US?
Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva warned that the consequences of relying on exports would be severe, especially for the United States because what does the US produce that other countries want? The United States cannot produce goods as cheaply with the same quality as countries like China.
Mark Mardell: "If [rich nations] don't consume, and they just bet on exports, the world will go into bankruptcy." Not quite, the United States will go into bankruptcy, its dollar worth-less and its ability to manufacture zilch.
Britain's Prime Minister David Cameron also warned that China should act to correct its trade imbalance. How? How does a country with plenty of labour, producing products that the world wants, stop its exports to help another country. All this country could do is up its prices, and this is artificial manipulation.
Critics, especially in the US, have called for tariffs on Chinese imports unless the yuan is allowed to appreciate. So, is tariffs on Chinese products supposed to create jobs, lower unemployment, bring back all those manufacturing jobs that were so gladly given to China and India?
It is feared that other countries will rush to allow currency devaluation to also make their exports more competitive. Not likely. The American Q.E.2 is just plain too dumb.
But China considers the exchange rate of its currency to be an internal matter and has only agreed to only gradually let the yuan appreciate, in accordance with world markets and supply and demand without doing anything artificial. This is good economics.
The governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, has urged the G20 to agree to let current account imbalances unwind, rather than impose targets and policy instruments that could be damaging to all. Right on! This is good economics.

"
39. At 3:17pm on 11 Nov 2010, corum-populo-2010 wrote:

"Do trade agreements provide value for local economies"? is still the HYS question.

Stand by my posts on this question. Plus, recommend post 26 @ 2:23pm on 11 November - 'Kuradi Vitukar'.

However, there is still the depressing and strong possibility of the 'MellorSJ' and their regular and recognised chums who will, no doubt, hijack this debate with the usual stream of ... personal insult interaction rather than genuine input?
"

Don't worry about MelloSJ, community service was cancelled today ;-)

MelloSJ, only joking mate!

Seriously corum-populo-2010. and anyone else (expect MelloSJ), read the the book "Green Alternatives to Globalisation: A Manifesto". I'm not a Green support but lots said in the book makes perfect sense to me.

2. At 12:54pm on 11 Nov 2010, scotty1694 wrote:
if china stoped cheating the system maybe america wouldnt need to pump all the extra money in, china is interesting only in itself while the west is following the stick together method and that cannot work unless china signs up aswell as it is such a big player in trade now. things would not be as bad if china played fairly but they are not and will not. so our recovery will be much slower but we will get there in the end just keep the faith!

##################################################################

If you changed 'China' to 'Japan' then you could have written the above post at anytime in the 1980's.

The USA and Europe did nothing then and will do nothing now.

And anyway the Japanese just said if you make things as well as we do, there would be no competion, and they were right. But now that we make things as good as them along comes China who just makes the same things only much, much cheaper.

The only way you can bring the Chinese under control is to do what should have been done against the Japanese. Lock off access to cheap credit. Once we can no longer borrow and borrow and borrow, our consumerist economy will stop, and China will be left with lots of cheap stuff and no-one to sell it to.

Thats likely to happen anyway as call me dave and his merry millionaires lead us into the next great recession.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Funny how the truth escapes so slowly isn't it?

First we have an economic collapse. We identify "who done it?" but there is no man or woman hunt. Then we have political spin on the collapse, along the lines of "YOU caused it", "no I didn't it was YOU", "YOU spent the money", "Yeah but YOU agreed with me", and so on.

Then we have episode one of plug the emptying pot: plug it as well as you can but fill the tank up some more too. Followed by episode two: that plug is not working - remove the leak completely by moving the contents to another pot which empties more slowly. Do not top up.

Episode three comes in the shape of historic truth. We have been here before and we are doing the exactly same thing wrong all over again. Greedy people never learn. And to think we believe these money people are important to us. Bring on the global revolution.

The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!

Ah, yes, 'scotty1694' - an 'Ian Cheese' sandwich according to both AND all your previous posts.

Trade agreements come in many shapes and sizes so it is futile to pronounce on whether they are either simply good or bad - it all depends on what constitutes each and every agreement and what are the reciprocal benefits to the parties involved. I do wish that those who pose such question on HYS would consider how to frame their question in such a way as to avoid ambivolence and time wasting.

That would depend on the nature of the agreement (give me strength....).

"
50. At 4:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"

Is this some sort of cryptic code or a joke western people aren't meant to understand?

Nice little trip for the we're all in it together liars from governBENT this little trip has cost the taxpayer a fortune but hey ho don't worry call me Dave is in it with us.
Sponging scrounger that it is.

@7. At 1:15pm on 11 Nov 2010, SlimyKabadiGandu wrote:

"Do trade agreements provide value for local economies?
What, like the agreement where India will open its markets to EU trade and in return the UK will take another quarter of a million Indian IT workers, thus condemning the same number of British citizens to the dole, during these economic times. Sheer genius".


That happened at where I used to work. They made 30 Brits redundant to 'cut losses' then shipped in over 40 Indian IT workers 1 months later to do the jobs that the other guys used to do. Even the IT graduates they recruit are all Indian's that have studied in the UK under student visas.
Cheap labour, pure and simple, you gotta love globalists.....

There are 20 industrialised nations in this world, how about rest of us? Most of the poor countries don't have any resources, either natural or mineral and they can't think of the comfort or financial security that the developed countries enjoy.

While the trade differences does exist and those oil shieks building paradise, how about the balance of wealth?

We can mobilise our efforts in bringing the differences between the developed world and the impoverished world in a manner that will be helpful for all.

We all should invest in those countries that are deprived of any assets and the global economy should parish equally even if we run out of the resources, we all should be happy together atleast for one day.

And its only be possible by controlled growth and effective planning for the future. Rich persons business is the poor persons economy and we can dominate it if not by wealth but by inspirations, because what comes out of the G20 summit is their only hope.

I'm sick of China, they can keep all of that worthless crap they send over here and we can start building quality products again, e.g., lamps that don't short, furniture that doesn't break after the second use, clothes that don't fall apart after the first wash, etc... Who cares if it is cheaper you spend more replacing the inferior items because you have rebuy it and make time to shop for it again. Let them sell that junk to their people, and we can keep our money!! A fool and his/her money are soon parted, well I'm sick of being the fool!!! Get with it America, you have provided no future for our children, oh wait, do you want fries with that??

So Dave says he is going to fight for Britain. He did this at the EU Summit, saying 'NO', to an increase in payments this year! Then tried to say that a rise of over 2% was a success.

Countries will do what they want to help themselves, this summit is just another big spend, a nice jolly, with lots of CO2 coming from their talk as well as their flights.

54. At 5:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
50. At 4:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"

Is this some sort of cryptic code or a joke western people aren't meant to understand?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

How western are you? your teeth breaking and tongue twisting name isn't English either.

We Americans are little bit west of you!

Do trade agreements provide value for local economies?

... nah ... just a little bit of hot air on HYS.

Ho hum...

The G20 has failed. We trusted them and they failed us. Right now they're trying desperately to regain credibility for their free trade cult.

It won't work. Voters can read the writing on the wall. The west is losing jobs and they're not coming back until we start protecting our markets.

Those WHINING most about Trade imbalances are being Out-Competed. With every nook & cranny of the World accessible for shipping, "COMPETITIVE" is the ruling Ideology.
How genuine is it for any country to be critical of anyone while maintaining SUBSIDIES.

US bleats about Chinese Yuan while announcing to Print $600 BILLION without showing any collateral, carry the suggestion it is Entitled to Wealthy status just on Rep, while all others must STRUGGLE for every inch of Progress. This, while still maintaining a STRANGLEHOLD on those without the ability to say No.
Notably Canada is backing US' Printing Priviledges while Manipulating $Cdn just below a FLOUNDERING USGreenback for Trade benefits.

Currency MANIPULATION has always been employed by Industrial West to protect UNFAIR Advantages, and as China, Brazil and others caught on, WTO was formed with the same objective in mind.

China's suggestion of an IMF Currency which only Countries could hold, to set a REAL Value on Currencies depending on National Productivity and Efficiency is about the FAIREST proposal to date, yet is unable to gain any traction because it would officially end the era of CREATIVE Accounting by those ADDICTED to Printing Chitna on TICK.

It's also time for Western Media to Return to "Reporting" rather than spreading propaganda. Same Google, China was vilified for reining-in, is now being challenged by US Networks for INFRINGEMENT.

Interesting that this item comes far lower down the BBC news list than say a few students chucking bricks about.

A single G20 decision can affect billions of people. A student riot affects almost no one by comparison.

“Are global trade agreements relevant to local economies?”

That some BBC person thought that was worth asking, let alone answering, seems to confirm my personal view that BBC news is fast becoming irrelevant popularist pap.

32. At 2:43pm on 11 Nov 2010, ian cheese wrote:

27. At 2:25pm on 11 Nov 2010, MellorSJ wrote:
re-China not a Cheat
-----------
Aye, well spoken bros! If China goes, we 'ave nofin!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How touching. The Tea Party twins having a love in.

Why do people leave their brains in the office and then log on to HYS when they get home, I don't understand.

Put your brains back on.

Every country (except US, which is the reference currency) that trades with the rest of the world pegs their currency either to the US dollar or a basket of currencies. It is a standard practice not meant to cheat the system but to provide stability for doing business. Business simply cannot be done if the the dollar is worth 20 Yuan today but 30 Yuan tomorrow.

If China is guilty of manipulating it's currency, then nobody is innocent.

Note: When you see the word "alleged" as in "Washington has blamed in part on Beijing's alleged manipulation of its currency to help boost Chinese exports", most probably it's not true.

My impression is that trade and exchange rate regulations are unnatural processes, just like forcing water to flow uphill. It might work for a while only than it returns back to its natural flow suffering more losses and causing new side effects in the mean time.
Actually those interactions should belong to natural sciences (just like the climate is), free of politicians, as all unnatural tendencies just will damage us deeper.

These meetings are nothing more than meetings to decide on how to make the rich wealthier - the true decisions are made elsewhere by a group in secret. This is just a show-piece.

One of the main problems with today's "globalized" economics is that the growth of some foreign economies is stimulating their population growth. People in already crowded nations, gaining even a modest increase in economic prosperity, then reproduce themselves even more readily than in the past, accelerating population growth where it is least sustainable in the long term and destabilizing those regions. If anything is to be accomplished in the meetings being held by world leaders, in regard to the world economy, population needs to be a foremost issue, and answers need to be arrived at, to reduce population growth and to set locally sustainable targets. At this time, continued population growth, environmental degradation, climate change, and accelerated militarization, are leading to both local increase in totalitarian extremes and to the increased possibility of instability and even all out war. Qunatitative easing is a valid answer to many problems if the increase in money is properly directed and managed, by stakeholder governments, so that it does benefit the society in which the money is created. Unfortunately that is not a U.S. policy, but it ought to be every nation's policy in these increasingly difficult times when the availability of money has become a pawn in international power politics, such that "we the people" of whatever nation can suffer significant to severe deprivations in consequence of hostile monetary actions.

Our government must believe that trade agreements do help or why go to India and China trying to see what crumbs (Rolls Royce Engine deals etc)are going to fall from their tables.

You cannot give away your manufacturing to China and not expect China to take advantage of that monopolistic opportunity. If the boot were on the other foot USA would not think twice. As it is USA is all but bankrupt if China stops funding the USA's fiscal stimulus. How long before there is a run on the dollar?

As for "US lawmakers' concerns about access to the South Korean markets for US beef and cars." Why beef about US cars to South Korea when General Motors manufacture in South Korea? How much access does USA want?

Trade agreements always favour rich nations and leave everyone else in ruins and unable to compete.
If we had fair trade agreements most developing nations would not need our charity - they could compete fairly.

"
60. At 6:43pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

54. At 5:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
50. At 4:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"

Is this some sort of cryptic code or a joke western people aren't meant to understand?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

How western are you? your teeth breaking and tongue twisting name isn't English either.

We Americans are little bit west of you!
"

I still have no idea what
"
The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"
means!

At 1:14pm on 11 Nov 2010, LippyLippo wrote:
Trade only works properly if it's a two-way thing. You buy some of our stuff, we'll buy some of yours. The Chinese don't operate this way. They're happy to sell to people, but they don't buy in return. They undercut everybody else because they exploit their own people and don't stick to the same safety, welfare or environmental legislation that Western countries follow. Thus the playing field isn't remotely level. The West needs to stop buying from them or else the flow of money is all one way. Continuing to prop up their economy will only weaken our own, but by the time the greedy businessmen wake up to this, it will be too late.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure if you have read this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11717020

Presumably Germany would be the next target you're aiming at.

This "Chinese are not buying from others" theory hasn't got a leg to stand on, unless all those BMWs were sold to the aliens. The moral of the story is, instead of whinging about others aren't buying your stuff, why not make an effort to make something worth selling (I rest my case if you think arms+hollywood pretty much hit the mark)?

72. At 9:32pm on 11 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
60. At 6:43pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

54. At 5:31pm on 11 Nov 2010, Kuradi Vitukari wrote:
"
50. At 4:53pm on 11 Nov 2010, Mohammed Hossain wrote:

The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"

Is this some sort of cryptic code or a joke western people aren't meant to understand?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

How western are you? your teeth breaking and tongue twisting name isn't English either.

We Americans are little bit west of you!
"

I still have no idea what
"
The USA dug a canal for fish
But Alas! crocodile appeared!
"
means!

============================

Does it mean making friends with China isn't a good idea?

58. At 6:21pm on 11 Nov 2010, Bren4611 wrote:
I'm sick of China, they can keep all of that worthless crap they send over here and we can start building quality products again, e.g., lamps that don't short, furniture that doesn't break after the second use, clothes that don't fall apart after the first wash, etc... Who cares if it is cheaper you spend more replacing the inferior items because you have rebuy it and make time to shop for it again. Let them sell that junk to their people, and we can keep our money!!
.
......................................
.
Can't disagree with the sentiment but unfortunately it has gone way beyond this now. China makes virtually everything and sells it back to us cheaper than we could make it ourselves. Just try buying anything, particularly electrical and you really have no choice left, you either buy Chinese or go without. We no longer manufacture anything of note.

Governments' first responsibilities should be to the citizens of the country which they represent and who pay taxes to support those governments. At this time it appears that many governments instead believe that they exist to further the interests of corporations and large entities, often at the expense of ordinary citizens. Trade agreements can further impoverish the already impoverished - the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) for example places many Mexican small farmers at a competitive disadvantage in their home markets compared with U.S. and Canadian agriculture and then they have had to leave their farms, with many entering the U.S. illegally to search for employment. Ironically then the U.S. spends considerable amounts of money to try to keep most of them from entering.

Interesting comments about China and the U.S. regarding trade and currencies. A short answer is that China may manipulate its currency, but the U.S. has a habit of invading countries which don't wish to play by U.S. rules.

For the foreseeable future...there's only two economies that matter & that's China & USA. Both are nearly at blown out war regards trade & currency...the latter has a record trade deficit (with the help of printed money) & the other has a record surplus, both a hindrance to a world (recovering) economy. Europe is the little boy with most of their country’s in dire straits from the housing bubble, deficits & unemployment...which I feel will never now get back to what it was, pre-recession/depression, I say depression, because the only difference now between the late twenties early thirty's are the modernity of our society, clothes & our materiel goods (including the false economy of houses being bought for investment)amassed in a frenzy since mostly Thatcher's greedy eighties & continued up to first major "Banksters" (not their ground staff) but investment managers & management & of course rogue dealers. Homes on the other hand should have been the things we demanded for everyone, & not blocks of boxed apartments dotted around each city by mad developers for sharks to make a killing with. (Half of these are now ghost towns in every country of Europe ghosting each individual environment.) Then the first foreclosure to the housing bubble to the biggest unemployment since records began & the same with deficits. And off course, now Europe has another enemy in the form of bond traders, the biggest bully’s on the face of the earth...& they're on a pillage that Germany is the only giant standing but doesn't want to be Mammy or Daddy again, because there are issues there in the under ground/background that could come back to haunt them. Go back in history and gist my feel on that...the remnants are still lurking in the background. I had already written here for years for unemployment & deficits to be tackled & ferociously & steadfast even since 2006/2007. But I've watched & watch & watched both grow into a monster & now we're stuck.


To get back to US & China, both these countries have major problems politically , China is a dictatorship...US is a country with a religious divide & racist divide (Tea Party & Right Wing Republican Fundamentalists), which since Obama came to power is getting worse. I also wrote years ago before the Beijing Olympics that China didn't care about human rights, any human rights. At the time of Cyclone Nargis in the Irrawaddy Delta in Burma, it was China who helped the Burmese Generals keep their people down...even going so far as doing nothing when aid was being stopped getting to the people injured & dying. They even threw their own (Chinese) people out on the streets if they didn't agree to the compensation they were given by the authorities there in many years lead-up to the 2008 Olympics , & I doubt if those people ever had a proper hearing yet. Then there's the child labour & young factory workers squashed for hours in factories & working in terrible condition & petty pay & conditions for years till last year the suicide issues were coming up, week after week for ages, then the odd factory were treated a little better. I could go on and on and on. And then of late the Nobel Peace Prize Author & Human rights campaigner Leo Xiabob, who has been in prison for years & was a main component to the time of the Tienanmen Square period, imprisoned & a embarrassment to the Chinese now in 2010 China. The people in China make most of the goods for the most of us worldwide, (some very badly made) but on the whole we buy them in the West & pay them their money. But then going the other way, China is not buying much from us because they have bought up everything they want & can use same industries & money investing in what they want to invest in, & the profits are all theirs. (It's even in the know, that they're eyeing the AIB Bank in Ireland, & will pounce when it's value drops to the right price, that could be good for Ireland, but not at any price) Re: their own domestic market, that's not too easy to crack either because the people wages are not up to buying things that easy, some or most everything electrical would take a few weeks salary but in many parts of that vast country people are just eking out a day to day living & of course many parts of the country had natural disaster's even a major city took a hit in the last tragedy. And unfortunately there will be many more. Then they're also still guarding their neighbours North Korea's corner & will keep doing so when the new leader in whatever time it takes, takes over. But one thing that could worry them before I close this chapter is the housing bubble babbling underneath the surface their own country & in Hong Kong. This is one problem that's keeping them worried & on their toes. I think myself, it will blow into a storm sometime sooner than later, because any world recovery won't happen any-time soon.


There you have it, both these countries are a challenge to themselves & to the wider world...& will be for a long, long, time to come. The rest of us will have to keep an eye on them and try to figure same out & maybe throw a tantrum every now & then, they misbehave. They're too big for us to be able to do anything else.

Quantitative Easing is a US catchphrase for PRINTING MONEY WITHOUT Showing COLLATERAL.
It's what facilitated the Economic Meltdown, and the suggestion of a repeat confirms ADDICTION to EASY Moolah. US is furnishing the Best Reason for an IMF Currency. No other Nation is allowed to simply PRINT it's way out of Economic MISMANAGEMENT and NEGATIVELY affect those who've WORKED their way into Contention.

US is giving itself No Chance for a Sustainable Recovery. Issuing more currency than it could Support is guaranteed to EASE the last vestage of Competitive Manufacturing into the out-house.

Unless they have some Revolutionary Secret Industrial Plan, the only remaining options left for US are a continuance of Military Predation and Saturation of the Planet with Genetic Modification.
US Govt has been silent partner with Monsanto for the past few decades, Genetically modifying everything in sight, even plants NOT Native to US, and Implanting Perverted Crops with Killer genes to render Natural Crops STERILE, with intention of forcing all who Grow Crops to BUY Seeds from them for Each and Every Planting.
It was mostly thought that the next Great War would be over Fresh WATER until this ploy to Control Global Food Supply was exposed.

As Desperation sets-in I fully expect Conflict and Predation to become more Vicious because US is showing No Sign of taking the Bitter Medicine required to cure it's addiction to EXCESS, and the rest of Humanity are rightfully demanding a FAIR-Share for their SACRIFICE and TOIL.

So how exactly does China manipulate its currency? Is Chinese currency pegged to a basket of currencies in order to reduce volatility like many other countries ?

Has any other country adopted the same methods through which China is alleged to manipulate its currency?

They are not rhetorical questions by the way, somebody please shed some light!?

Trade agreements do NOT work, example: The US trade deficit 1990-1999 1.5 trillion dollars, and from 2000-2009 it quadrupled to $6.0 trillion dollars, where do you think all the US jobs went? Data: census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c0015.html

There should be a system by which those holding a trade surplus should be taxed and the funds distributed within the members of this new organisation.

You Europeans were smart enough to send your proposed trading terms to the Koreans in advance for their study so they were ready make deals with you at the summit. My own Presient Obama this inexperienced buffoon who already has been out manuvered by half the world's dicators shows up with his trading terms in hand and is promptly rejected and laughed at behind closed doors, what an idiot.

There is another side to the international coin that has been largely forgotten. When one country buys large amounts of common goods and commodities from another country, creating a trade imbalance, the question becomes the question of what that other country would want to buy in exchange. It now has a lot of dollars to spend, and the question is what would it spend them on ? Clearly there is technology, particularly military technology, that might be desired, but unavailable. As the imbalance grows, there is less and less else to trade for, and the opportunities to lend and invest are reduced as the industrial base and productivity of the importer is eroded. Again, it limits the nature of the exports that might be wanted. Most common things can be more readily produced at lower cost by the country with the greater exports, not the importer of those goods. This creates a problem and can result in continued rounds of quantitative easing as money flows out of the importing nation to the exporting nation. That paper then needs to be spent on something, but not necessarily in the nation that it came from. This complicated scenario could cause eventual devaluation of the importer's currency, not the exporter's currency as it rises in value. The importer is then left with less valuable paper than they initially thought that they had. Nevertheless, this can lead to a total economic meltdown when the importer, with the largest trade imbalance, chances to be the United States.

Manipulating Currency is a Mainstay of Capitalism as is still practiced by Industrial West who can still afford to. Buy or Sell to control Supply or Demand, except China has the added EDGE of CONTROLLING Trillions of $US, and whose fault is that? If US wasn't WRECKLESSLY selling China wouldn't have been able to purchase. So wrecklessly that even their combined allies were incapable of stemming the flow.

The SIMPLE solution to any trade deficit, is to start producing what the other side NEEDS at a COMPETITIVE Price. Or are we expecting Up & Coming Nations to buy from us as a FAVOUR after surviving our best efforts to Suppress.
Capitalism today is PREDATOR vs PREY devoid of sentiment, and we've made it so.
We buy from China because their stuff is CHEAP, the day someone else starts producing Cheaper is the day before we start importing from elsewhere.
What the West is unable to cope with, is China's ability to Adapt and Improove, they've made the transition from Trinkets to Appliances to Computers to Autos while still projected to be dwelling on Trinkets.
If we're crying now, WHAT are we going to do when Chinese Cars & Trucks hit our Markets? And they will have to if we expect to keep exporting our Cars over there.

Incidentally, experts attest that China pegging it's Yuan to attract Trade, was a term Insisted upon by Western Corps who wanted to locate there. AND, the only avenue left to equalise the Trade imbalance, is by Imposing TAXES on our own Corps who located over there. Afterall, those Corps don't hesitate to come bawling for Govt Help when needed.
This all started with OUT-SOURCING.

80. At 01:32am on 12 Nov 2010, Alastore wrote:

So how exactly does China manipulate its currency? Is Chinese currency pegged to a basket of currencies in order to reduce volatility like many other countries ?

Has any other country adopted the same methods through which China is alleged to manipulate its currency?

They are not rhetorical questions by the way, somebody please shed some light!?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing to be alarmed at, actually.
Bank of Japan recently bought Japanese Yen because their exports were hurting. When you sell in dollars and pay your workers in Yen, and the Yen rises against the dollar, you make less money.

Every country tries to intervene in the currency market in this way, up to a limit. One the other side are the currency traders who have no qualms about making a fast buck because they answer to no one except their investors and bosses.

China is a mass manufacturer. Profit from producing each unit is minimal and money is made by producing in huge quantities. If the Chinese government allows the Yuan to appreciate say, 10% overnight, it is akin to committing suicide.
Here's the simple math.
If you make 5 cents for every dollar you sell, you'll earn $50,000 for every million you sell. All things being equal, if you appreciate the Yuan by 10%, you make a loss of $50,000 for every million you sell. The more you make the more you lose.

So, no matter how much pressure the US applies, China will never appreciate it's currency drastically overnight. China knows it and the US knows it.

Be aware when you read the word "alleged" on BBC. If Washington "alleged" that men should pee sitting down and women should pee standing up, you can be sure BBC will print it.

Intranational trade agreements can only benefit local economies if their host nation has something to sell at an economic price. Europe has priced itself out of the market place with its self imposed additional, but avoidable, production costs of its ideologies for workers rights, environmental protection and health & safety regulations. And whatever it is we manufacture for export in the UK these days we MUST sell it at an economic price, and that means matching our competitors, such as China, in quality and unit production costs. Does this mean returning to the Dickensian era ? Not quite but "tiger" economies are necessarily far less exercised and much more pragmatic about the environment, health & safety and so called workers rights. And the best incentive they have to reject the Euro ideologies is the decline and influence of Europe and the UK's in the global market. And for those that believe we should persuade the tiger economies to "come up" to out standards - you really should travel more.

16. At 1:59pm on 11 Nov 2010, Toothpick Harry wrote:
Areements on trade don't provide anything other than give a bunch of world leaders another excuse for an all expenses paid couple of days out. I'm sick of seeing Gobby Obama postulating as if he's the man of the moment. The best agreement for Britain would be for us to manufacture our own goods and buy ourselves what we manufacture.

Really? Do you truly think a nation of just 60 million can manufacture everything from iPods, flat screen TVs, computers, cars etc that it needs at anything like the price and quality we can by trading with nations that can produce them because they have economies of scale we don't have? You are deluding yourself.

I'm no economist...but I think the US is going under and we just refuse to acknowledge it. It seems like we are just grabbing at any and everything trying to stay afloat.
We offerd our jobs to China and they accepted...duh!!

86. At 06:23am on 12 Nov 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:
80. At 01:32am on 12 Nov 2010, Alastore wrote:

So how exactly does China manipulate its currency? Is Chinese currency pegged to a basket of currencies in order to reduce volatility like many other countries ?

Has any other country adopted the same methods through which China is alleged to manipulate its currency?

They are not rhetorical questions by the way, somebody please shed some light!?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing to be alarmed at, actually.
Bank of Japan recently bought Japanese Yen because their exports were hurting. When you sell in dollars and pay your workers in Yen, and the Yen rises against the dollar, you make less money.

Every country tries to intervene in the currency market in this way, up to a limit. One the other side are the currency traders who have no qualms about making a fast buck because they answer to no one except their investors and bosses.

China is a mass manufacturer. Profit from producing each unit is minimal and money is made by producing in huge quantities. If the Chinese government allows the Yuan to appreciate say, 10% overnight, it is akin to committing suicide.
Here's the simple math.
If you make 5 cents for every dollar you sell, you'll earn $50,000 for every million you sell. All things being equal, if you appreciate the Yuan by 10%, you make a loss of $50,000 for every million you sell. The more you make the more you lose.

So, no matter how much pressure the US applies, China will never appreciate it's currency drastically overnight. China knows it and the US knows it.

Be aware when you read the word "alleged" on BBC. If Washington "alleged" that men should pee sitting down and women should pee standing up, you can be sure BBC will print it.
---------------------------------------------------------

Cheers for that Jeff.

So it becomes currency manipulation when central banks start to buy/sell the local currencies directly (opposing to indirect methods such as interest rate adjustment etc.) It does seem like a pretty standard practice among all trade powers in the world, e.g. Fed's QE2.

Maybe it's high time to introduce IMF currency after all, as it would base on all major currencies & mitigate any effects from individual currency manipulation.

"89. At 07:36am on 12 Nov 2010, effinuts wrote:
I'm no economist...but I think the US is going under and we just refuse to acknowledge it. It seems like we are just grabbing at any and everything trying to stay afloat.
We offerd our jobs to China and they accepted...duh!!"

That was the price for their silence...

It seems like America is doing itself in and China is simply financing it for us. When we will wake up to this?

In the meantime, our President is jetting around the world and dancing with the Indians. I wonder how much of America he gave up to them. I doubt we'll see those 50,000 jobs he claims will be created from his visit to India.
And, if we have to go to India for 50,000 jobs when millions of jobs are gone, then we are in real trouble.

When trading stops, war starts. War is coming and this time it will be bad but maybe it is necassary. One thing that we can be sure of is that final outcome will not effect the lives of the ordinary people, it never has and it never will, thats human nature.

Trade agreements can be relevant if people play by simple rules. In this case of the G20 the US first prints $600 billion and then goes to the conference and calls for agreement to stop 'competitive devaluation', which is what they just did! I have to agree with a Chinese government spokesman who reportedly remarked " Why should we take medicine for someone else's disease?".

93. At 09:20am on 12 Nov 2010, Syni_cal wrote:
When trading stops, war starts. War is coming and this time it will be bad but maybe it is necassary. One thing that we can be sure of is that final outcome will not effect the lives of the ordinary people, it never has and it never will, thats human nature.
--------------------------------------------------------
Are you mad!? Every WAR has effected the lives of 'ordinary people' - they tend to end up dead by the millions....and lets be honest if we are on the path to war, it will be global, it will be nasty and it will kill millions, if not billions of 'ordinary people' - I mean - what planet do you live on?

Nuclear bombs will be employed IF we ever do end up in an international War! It will make WW1 AND WW2 look like a day out at a theme park!

Globalisation keeps inflation within acceptable boundaries - putting barriers up on eastern imports will just blow our cost of living sky-high - so stop knocking it...!

The chinese government holds down the price of the commodities that it produces and so supplies raw materials and labour at below cost. The PRC govt sets the price of wheat and the price of rice and milk etc. Poverty in Rural China is appalling and is the rural economic norm. This has a huge effect on our economies. Take milk for example this is a by product of the beef industry. Milk and our soft British wheat used to be made into semi durable foodstuffs such as biscuits and pastry etc. It wouldnt be so bad if we could say that the PRC subsidises milk and labour and wheat but it does not do this. The PRC Govt coerces its own population to acheive these objectives. The result that it is cheaper for a well known once british biscuit company to manufacture its wares in china and ship them half way round the world. The effect that this has on british , american and european beef and dairy farmers is being felt and results in ever higher consumer prices because our producers have lost the market for their secondary products. The PRC has a nasty totalitarian government and should be regarded as having such by citizens in the west. We should be angry that our economies are being negatively affected/controlled by this clique that preys on the west by preying on ordinary chinese people.

I have one more axe to grind against the PRC government....for most of my life the most popular British biscuit was sweet, crumbly and didnt fit into a teacup. One had to wet one edge of it and nibble before one could dunk it. The pale imitation produced in the PRC fits into my teacup is hard and tasteless pricipally because it doesnt use soft british wheat. Come the revival of british manufacturing I expect our tea breaks to be adorned by our long lost round brown friend.

Britain and the USA have devalued their currency by printing money/quantative easing to encourage exports.

88. At 07:16am on 12 Nov 2010, Total Mass Retain wrote:
16. At 1:59pm on 11 Nov 2010, Toothpick Harry wrote:
Areements on trade don't provide anything other than give a bunch of world leaders another excuse for an all expenses paid couple of days out. I'm sick of seeing Gobby Obama postulating as if he's the man of the moment. The best agreement for Britain would be for us to manufacture our own goods and buy ourselves what we manufacture.

Really? Do you truly think a nation of just 60 million can manufacture everything from iPods, flat screen TVs, computers, cars etc that it needs at anything like the price and quality we can by trading with nations that can produce them because they have economies of scale we don't have? You are deluding yourself.
=========================================================================
Iy you'd been around long enough you would know that we did produce most of what we needed ourselves. Multinational companies have brain-washed people into thinking a global economy is best for us all. It isn't, we started the industrial revolution, our standard of living rose because of that. Now we are in a position where other nations are in the market producing goods such as we did less than a hundred years ago. We can never compete with their wages which is the biggest component of most products. What we must do is to protect our own industries and work force until such time as the poorer countries wages are on a par with ours therebye creating a level playing field. You are deluding yourself if you think we can carry on sucking in imports without earning the money with exports to pay for them. You may be one of the I'm alright Jacks in our society, got a well paid job that you think is in an industry that's safe. Wrong, people in out motorcycle industry, car industry, electrical appliance industry etc thought that, now what are they doing? Service industry jobs that just add to the nations debt. How? they don't produce anything, what they earn buys imported goods, so, the money they earn starts in Britain but ends up in a multitude of other countries helping them achieve a better standard of living whilst ours drifts ever lower down, and the nation as a whole getting into ever deeper debt.

Hey! Stop blaming the imports of goods from China. You're the greedy grasping consumer who wants loads of cheap stuff yet demands high wages for the stuff you do. You're the one pricing us out of the international labour market. Ever heard of do without or buy less local stuff. Nah! Too selfish and stupid to even realise the effect of your actions.